Final Fantasy XI Forum » The Airship (General) » Square-Enix sued over "hidden fees" in Final Fantasy XI

A class action lawsuit has been filed earlier this week against Square-Enix North America for intentionally deceiving customers regarding hidden penalties and fees associated with the PlayOnline and Final Fantasy XI service.

The suit, filed on behalf of Esther Leong of San Francisco, is seeking over 5 million in damages. The suit also goes on to specifically list the penalties for the late payment of fees, the interest charges for unpaid fees, charges that occur while the game account is suspended, termination of game service for unpaid fees, and the termination of game data due to the late payment of fees as the specific causes of this lawsuit.

In Square-Enix's defense, however, the suit also lists the standard monthly subscription as being intentionally decieving. Final Fantasy XI's case does, in fact, say that additional online fees would be required and it also has a large sticker announcing "Free subscription for 30 days!" on the front of the box -- something more than most online games provide regarding their subscriptions.

We have contacted Square-Enix, and are currently waiting for their response to this matter.
 

Source: www.massively.com/2009/06/25/square-enix-sued-over-hidden-fees-in-final-fantasy-xi/#comments

If true it is just bad bad news.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

If true it is just bad bad news.

Bad news for who?

 I found this regarding playonline member agreement.

(a) Payment of Fee.
The Subscription Fee and any additional Subscription Fee amounts will be due and payable at the beginning of each month, and will automatically be charged to the approved payment method that you provided when you registered for the PlayOnline Service. If at any time your payment method should cease to be valid, or should otherwise reject charges, your access to and use of the PlayOnline Services as a whole will be suspended immediately, and you will be required to provide a valid credit card in your name, or other approved payment method, in order to reactivate your account. Before reactivation of your account, all delinquent Subscription Fees will be charged to the valid payment method newly registered. You may incur fees (in addition to the Subscription Fee) for any such reactivation of your account, and you acknowledge and understand that such fees will be charged without further notice to you.
 

(b) Authorization of Monthly Payment.
You hereby authorize SEI and its designated agents to charge any Subscription Fees to your approved payment method at the beginning of each month during the term of this Agreement, and you agree to timely pay all amounts so charged. You understand and agree that all payments to SEI hereunder will be nonrefundable, even if you decide to terminate your access to and use of the Fee-Based Services in the middle of any month or other period for which you have already paid for such access and use.
 

(c) Late Fees and SEI Rights.
In the event that you are late in paying any Subscription Fee due hereunder, or refuse to pay any credit card or other applicable bill containing a Subscription Fee charge (such that SEI incurs fees, penalties, or other expenses as a result thereof), SEI shall be entitled to charge you a late fee at the annual rate maximum allowed by applicable laws, of all amounts due and owing, charged on a monthly basis for so long as you remain delinquent in your payment obligations. SEI shall further be entitled to pass through to you, for prompt payment by you, any and all fees, penalties, or other expenses charged to SEI by any credit card company, bank, collection agency, or any other company or institution as a result of your failure to timely pay all amounts due under this Agreement, together with a 10% administrative fee.

This has to get thrown out, because it's just stupid. Not even a day and all the claims have been debunked already.

Lol nice, even is they would have won against SE, 5 million is a little outrageous.

What stuck out like a sore thumb to me was the "NA".  Only in america do things like this happen. Hot coffee on your lap cause you cant drink from a cup....lawsuit,  smoke 5 packs of cigs a day and die from cancer...yup wife has a lawsuit.  Now it seems it is , i have to actually pay for a monthly sub? lawsuit. We have gone from protecting victums to holding the hands of the stupid in this country.

Agree 100% lol. It's amazing what people sue over, and actually win...

Working in the credit card industry, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the validity of the lawsuit. Fineprint in EULA's isn't very "binding" and some of SEI's practices go against the rules of the credit card industry itself. For example, if a customer challenges a charge on their card, SEI will most likely LOSE the "chargeback" war, even with the EULA as cover. The credit card associations almost always will side with the customer (gotta keep them happy to keep them using the charge cards), ESPECIALLY on internet transactions where a company's "proof" of charge acceptance is almost non-existant (no signature, no track data, etc).

And how can you have a "late fee" for something that's been terminated? If they attempt to charge and fail to get an authorization, they suspend the account. No problem there. Charging for suspending and then reactivating the account? Total ********.  About the only companies that I know of that can get away with that kind of junk are the cell phone providers, and even they are under fire for it.

So for all you people out there that get hosed by SEI, just contest the charges you don't like, you'll probably win and get your money back (and SEI will probably be stuck with the lost money PLUS 25 bucks or more in chargeback fees for each one).

Originally posted by eric_w66

Working in the credit card industry, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the validity of the lawsuit. Fineprint in EULA's isn't very "binding" and some of SEI's practices go against the rules of the credit card industry itself. For example, if a customer challenges a charge on their card, SEI will most likely LOSE the "chargeback" war, even with the EULA as cover. The credit card associations almost always will side with the customer (gotta keep them happy to keep them using the charge cards), ESPECIALLY on internet transactions where a company's "proof" of charge acceptance is almost non-existant (no signature, no track data, etc).

And how can you have a "late fee" for something that's been terminated? If they attempt to charge and fail to get an authorization, they suspend the account. No problem there. Charging for suspending and then reactivating the account? Total ********.  About the only companies that I know of that can get away with that kind of junk are the cell phone providers, and even they are under fire for it.

So for all you people out there that get hosed by SEI, just contest the charges you don't like, you'll probably win and get your money back (and SEI will probably be stuck with the lost money PLUS 25 bucks or more in chargeback fees for each one).

Not just the late fee for termination but they can't do the following: "charges that occur while the game account is suspended" If this is true, this will be the only thing she wins. They can't charge for a service she isn't receiving and if they suspended her account and continued to charge they will have to reverse those charges. To the best of my knowledge they also can't charge late fees as the account should have suspended immediately upon a payment not being made or a credit card declining. It would be the same as unsubscribing and then resubscribing.. I think if they allowed her to play beyond her paid period, that's their own fault.

Seriously? SE did these? i never notice.

The only problem with billing is that it often double charge me on the month after the account started to play. which i am fine with it.

I even reactivite once around the 28th and got charge full month, then again i didn't really care about it... its the cost of going to watch a movie if FFXI can provide me 2 hour of entertainment.

I never had any issues with SE but like everything these days, its a wait and see what happens kind of thing.

Yeah I don't believe that this would be the first time we would have heard about this if it were true. I've had my account suspended and reactivated and no extra fees. I'm sure it's writen that way just so that SE can protect itself, not because they charge extra fees.

I find one area to be sketchy .The area of late fees to be charged with no notice.First of all ,if you do not pay ,they stop your service,so there is no such thing as a late charge since you are receiving NOTHING,the same as a NEW player just signing in,and of course you cannot charge a new player late fees,since they never received anything YET.

They are basically identical,both parties involved recieve nothing,when they pay,they recieve a service,how could Square possibly charge a late fee for offering no service?Late fees as we know them are charged for late payments on our real life bills,but our service is never stopped,where as Square will stop your service ,pronto if no payment is recieved,as a matter of fact ,that is why they do their accounting like 5 days before the end of the month.

Then you add into it,the fact ,you are  offered no CHOICE or warning ,it clearly states "YOU MAY"this "IS" misleading,because MOST people would figure,they will not try to scam a customer and piss off their clients,but then they just might,that is for certain a HIDDEN COST,because you have NO idea weather or not you wil lbe charged.

The way it is worded "IS" IMO very misleading,it basically gives them the right to do whatever they want,and you are agreeing to that,just because you sign the TOS.It basically says you adhere to any further charges and accept them,but the charges are never a guarantee,it says "YOU MAY"<<that is the misleading part.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

...and it also has a large sticker announcing "Free subscription for 30 days!" on the front of the box -- something more than most online games provide regarding their subscriptions.

What the hell are they smoking? 30 days free with sub is pretty much an industry standard with pay to play mmorpgs.

I do not understand how you can have a late fee on an expired sub, Sub's are charged 1 month in advance, if billing fails you end the service...

I have never seen any game company charged a late fee on resub'n an account.  Only thing I could see is charging the back fees if a chargeback had incurred.

I don't understand the late fees either ... but there was a time when my CC numbers got stolen and so my bank changed my numbers for me. I never got to change it in FFXI and when I renewed my card I noticed a odd charge on my card. it was like $32.51 for FFXI that month. I have two accounts so I don't know if this was some combination of the two or something ... honestly I wasn't paying much attention. It is just something to look at ... if anyone gets any info on the class action plz post a link I'd like to see about this.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

What stuck out like a sore thumb to me was the "NA".  Only in america do things like this happen. Hot coffee on your lap cause you cant drink from a cup....lawsuit,  smoke 5 packs of cigs a day and die from cancer...yup wife has a lawsuit.  Now it seems it is , i have to actually pay for a monthly sub? lawsuit. We have gone from protecting victums to holding the hands of the stupid in this country.

Its a shame that stupidity isn't painful. Americans used to be able to be proud of our nation, now we are just riding the s**t down the drain.
 

I can understand how the late fee's could work, the first comes in BAM your charge is applied to whatever card you use for a reaccuring subsciption. dang near no bank has instant online transactions, they go through a "pending" period, where at the end of the pending period the money is then extracted from your account. If by the time you hit your pending end period and there is no money or negative money in your account you would incure the said fee from SE because you didnt fullfil your end of the agreement to the payment for the month. so next time your charged or have to resub cause it cancled, youll have to pay for the fee's charged to the account because "someone" wasnt responsible enough with there money to make sure it was all there.

Originally posted by fossilfied

I can understand how the late fee's could work, the first comes in BAM your charge is applied to whatever card you use for a reaccuring subsciption. dang near no bank has instant online transactions, they go through a "pending" period, where at the end of the pending period the money is then extracted from your account. If by the time you hit your pending end period and there is no money or negative money in your account you would incure the said fee from SE because you didnt fullfil your end of the agreement to the payment for the month. so next time your charged or have to resub cause it cancled, youll have to pay for the fee's charged to the account because "someone" wasnt responsible enough with there money to make sure it was all there.

It would make some sense, but with FFXI on the first of the month if your card is decline your subscription stops. It isn't like you get to keep playing and you have a tab you are playing on. It isn't like an electric bill or a phone bill where you are getting charged for May's usage as you are using it in June. Basically paying for the services you already have used. In FFXI on May 1 you are getting charged from May 1 til May 31. On June 1 you get charged for June 1 to June 30 so you are paying for membership to use the service from that point on.

If you have no money on June 1 there is no way (outside of some error on the part of ther service provider) that you would be playing on June 15. Now if you had no money on June 1 and then you wanted to play on June 15 when you did have money then you get charged for the entire month of June. That is okay ... well it isnt really, but that is how it works with FFXI. You shouldn't also get charged a late fee because at that point you are not subscribed to the membership. It would be like on May 30 I decided to cancel for 2 weeks. The senario would happen I would have to buy the entire month of June but there would be no kind of extra charges (July I'd get a double charge ... one for June and another for July).

And you aren't suggesting that I'm not resposible enough with my money are you?

Originally posted by fossilfied

I can understand how the late fee's could work, the first comes in BAM your charge is applied to whatever card you use for a reaccuring subsciption. dang near no bank has instant online transactions, they go through a "pending" period, where at the end of the pending period the money is then extracted from your account. If by the time you hit your pending end period and there is no money or negative money in your account you would incure the said fee from SE because you didnt fullfil your end of the agreement to the payment for the month. so next time your charged or have to resub cause it cancled, youll have to pay for the fee's charged to the account because "someone" wasnt responsible enough with there money to make sure it was all there.

As someone who writes software in the credit card world, I can tell you what happens in these cases:

1) You enter your CC info to SEI.

2) On initial charge, SEI attempts to do a "SALE" on your card for the amount they want to charge you to their processor.

3) The processor SEI uses sends the transaction to Visa or MasterCard or whoever if it passes all their edit checks (properly formatted info, card num, etc).

4) Visa or MasterCard or whoever then sends the transaction to the bank, if it passes all of THEIR edit checks (fraud detection, properly formatted data, etc).

5) Banks DO have nearly instant online transactions. I know. The bank checks the account. If it passes all of THEIR edit checks (non-suffiecient funds, fraud warnings, card not valid, not activated, account closed, etc etc etc), then the bank puts a "Hold" on the funds for that amount, and returns an approval code to Visa/MC/Whoever.

6) Visa/MC/Whoever returns the approval code to the processor, who in turn returns it to SEI.

BTW, the above "transaction" can take less than 1 second nowadays if you have a good processor.

If SEI uses a "SALE" type of transaction, the money the bank is holding will be "settled" later that day (usually in the middle of the night), and the money then moves from the customer's bank to the bank of SEI.

If SEI uses the older "AUTH/CAP" system where they put a "hold" on funds but don't want to actually capture it till later (like when they ship the product, or whatever), the money is still "held" and it can't be used for other things.

"Holds" on cards (especially debit) REALLY irk customers off, so they tend to "fall off" rather quickly, though I have heard of banks leaving authorizations for an entire month, tying up funds (Your "open to buy").

If you see 1 dollar "pending" charges on your online statements, those are typically "AVS" checks, or checks to see if your card is valid. They "auth" a 1 dollar charge against your account with no intention of collecting it. So it sits pending till the bank removes it. Visa doesn't like these anymore, so now they are going to start charging "abuse" fees to companies who do it  in the USA. (You can now do zero dollar "auths" in the USA, but for some reason, the UK has laws preventing them, so they still have to do the 1 EU/pound trick to verify a card's validity).

Now, in rare cases, a bank can reject transactions in a settlement for the non-sufficient funds reasons, etc (say someone closed their account before the settlement ran), but at that point, you now have a battle between the bank and the SEI because the bank "approved" the transaction and said it'd pay them money. Heh.... "rejects" these are called... not fun.

Originally posted by eric_w66

Working in the credit card industry, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the validity of the lawsuit (Notice, not law industry). Fineprint in EULA's isn't very "binding" and some of SEI's practices go against the rules of the credit card industry itself. For example, if a customer challenges a charge on their card, SEI will most likely LOSE the "chargeback" war, even with the EULA as cover (This is not pertained to the lawsuit since it wasn't included in the charges). The credit card associations almost always will side with the customer (gotta keep them happy to keep them using the charge cards), ESPECIALLY on internet transactions where a company's "proof" of charge acceptance is almost non-existant (no signature, no track data, etc).

And how can you have a "late fee" for something that's been terminated? (The EULA stated a subscription fee and not the standard monthly fee)  If they attempt to charge and fail to get an authorization, they suspend the account. No problem there. Charging for suspending and then reactivating the account? (Nowhere does it say charge for suspending account, nor reactivating.  Don't assume so much) Total ********.  About the only companies that I know of that can get away with that kind of junk are the cell phone providers, and even they are under fire for it. (Difference is Cellphone company are actually in the wrong usually, so they usually lose the class action suit)

So for all you people out there that get hosed by SEI, just contest the charges you don't like, you'll probably win and get your money back (and SEI will probably be stuck with the lost money PLUS 25 bucks or more in chargeback fees for each one). (Inciting riot? Plus in all my years of playing SE only hose rule breakers that deserved it)

To all who wonder how you can have a late fee, or play with no money in your bank account.  With SE you pay after you play.  When i reactivate my account after quitting, (perhaps on the 10th of the month), SE doesn't charge my CC until the 1st of the next month.  Everyone knows SE only bills on the 1st. 

So... I reactivate my account, then cancel my CC.  Now I just got to play FFXI from the 10th, to the 1st of the next month for free.  SE is just going to put a late fee and interest on the money I just hosed them (depending on how many accounts i activated, or even for just a single account). 

And SE probably didn't even go after this guy to recoup anything, I'm willing to bet this guy reactivated his account(s) and had some nasty late fees, old subscription fees, etc. from when he thought he'd pull one over on SE, and they just stuck him right back.

Originally posted by Herkfixer

To all who wonder how you can have a late fee, or play with no money in your bank account.  With SE you pay after you play.  When i reactivate my account after quitting, (perhaps on the 10th of the month), SE doesn't charge my CC until the 1st of the next month.  Everyone knows SE only bills on the 1st. 

Not true.

Let's say I sub on October 30th. I have to pay my full monthly fee to start my sub on that day as SE does not "pro-rate" the sub. Two days later, I am charged the full monthly fee again for November. You are correct that they charge on the first of every month, but it IS for the month ahead, not the month you've already played.

you want to know something funny i started playing on oct 21 2004 and this is the bill that they gave me on march 2009 O.o

OKay my question is this

They say that  as soon as a payment is missed they suspend your account. (okay i can understand this)

but this..

"in order to reactivate your account. Before reactivation of your account, all delinquent Subscription Fees will be charged to the valid payment method newly registered"

How can they charge you for "Delinquent sub, fees" when you have not gone passed  payed usage time due to immediate deactivation?

So i got a pic of the day i started as well check it out