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The Repopulation Forum » General Discussion » Another Kickstarter?

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54 posts found
  Trekkan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/06
Posts: 10

12/27/13 5:00:49 PM#41

It's not like they are asking for a ton of cash... they are only asking half of my personal salary per year.  That hardly pays for a ton of development work, software licencing, artists, designers, etc...  

So... like anything else, if you don't agree with it, don't support it.   

-Trekkan
Just For Fun Gaming
WWW.JFFGAMING.COM

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

12/27/13 5:15:52 PM#42

I'm still 100% behind this game, and excited to play it whenever I get the chance.

Heck, just reading their design ideas is more fun than playing almost every MMO on the market today.

  Garainis

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/13
Posts: 12

12/27/13 6:56:14 PM#43
Freaking Star Citizen ir raking millions after millions in continued long term crowfunding campaigns but when a small indie studio asks for far less money to expand on the initial concept it`s suddenly somehow unacceptable. You people really are sheeps controlled by marketing.

  hfztt

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 602

1/02/14 5:13:49 PM#44
Originally posted by Garainis
Freaking Star Citizen ir raking millions after millions in continued long term crowfunding campaigns but when a small indie studio asks for far less money to expand on the initial concept it`s suddenly somehow unacceptable. You people really are sheeps controlled by marketing.

The issue is not that they are asking for more, thats fine. The problem is that they are doing it before delivering what they promised to deliver after the first one, EVEN IF IT FAILED!

People handing off mony to Star Citizen just shows how little people knows about what is hard about making games. It is not hard getting good ideas, everyone has those, it is hard making said ideas WORK.

I want to see and prefereably play working prototypes that proves the ideas translate into actual gameplay before touching Kickstarters in the future.

  Jacxolope

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

1/02/14 5:33:27 PM#45

I really have to laugh at some people and how they justify thigngs.

 

"But they only asked for XXX in their first KS... MMOs take waaay more money than that to make."

 

Yes. Yes, they do. And this is a problem with KS. If the devs do not realize "how much money an MMO takes to make" during the first KS, and continue to add more and more- They are kind of clueless , huh? OR (much more possibly) they always intended to do multiple Kickstaters and started very low so people would throw money at them thinking "they are not asking for that much..." and then those people have a vested interest in the game coming out (or they get nothing) so they are easy targets to keep begging for even MORE money .

If anyone thinks they can make an MMO for under 100K- They are fools. And I do not trust them with a dollar. If  they knew they could not make an MMO for what they asked originally and always intended to come back begging foor more (the likely scenario imho) they are dishonest and I do not trut them.

 

Either way- They are clueless or dishonest, right?

 

If this game got 200% funding on the first KS it shouldnt need another one, right? It got double the money asked fr? AND if the devs can not produce with double the money asked for, what would have happened if they just made their goal? 

-=And this is becoming commonplace with KS. Low ball the initial amount to get people vested. This is going to make regular rabid fanboys look  tame once someones money is tired up in an unfinished idea . I already seee "salesmen" all over the place (not just here) pimping the game they have backed and justifying everything the company does.

-Oh well. Not my moneys. 

  CthulhuPuffs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 379

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

1/02/14 5:44:45 PM#46
Originally posted by hfztt
Originally posted by Garainis
Freaking Star Citizen ir raking millions after millions in continued long term crowfunding campaigns but when a small indie studio asks for far less money to expand on the initial concept it`s suddenly somehow unacceptable. You people really are sheeps controlled by marketing.

The issue is not that they are asking for more, thats fine. The problem is that they are doing it before delivering what they promised to deliver after the first one, EVEN IF IT FAILED!

People handing off mony to Star Citizen just shows how little people knows about what is hard about making games. It is not hard getting good ideas, everyone has those, it is hard making said ideas WORK.

I want to see and prefereably play working prototypes that proves the ideas translate into actual gameplay before touching Kickstarters in the future.

The Features promised in the first KS have been developed and are implemented (or are very close to ready) into the Alpha. Just read their Patch Notes over the last 6+ months. They specify what has been put in.  Now its all being tested.

The second KS is offering some new things that can also be implemented should it hit the Stretch Goals.

 

There is a working prototype. Its been at quite a few Cons including PAX.

There is also an ongoing Alpha with Beta coming soon.

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  Kraylor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/05/12
Posts: 95

1/03/14 12:00:41 AM#47
Originally posted by Jacxolope

I really have to laugh at some people and how they justify thigngs.

 

"But they only asked for XXX in their first KS... MMOs take waaay more money than that to make."

 

Yes. Yes, they do. And this is a problem with KS. If the devs do not realize "how much money an MMO takes to make" during the first KS, and continue to add more and more- They are kind of clueless , huh? OR (much more possibly) they always intended to do multiple Kickstaters and started very low so people would throw money at them thinking "they are not asking for that much..." and then those people have a vested interest in the game coming out (or they get nothing) so they are easy targets to keep begging for even MORE money .

If anyone thinks they can make an MMO for under 100K- They are fools. And I do not trust them with a dollar. If  they knew they could not make an MMO for what they asked originally and always intended to come back begging foor more (the likely scenario imho) they are dishonest and I do not trut them.

 

Either way- They are clueless or dishonest, right?

 

If this game got 200% funding on the first KS it shouldnt need another one, right? It got double the money asked fr? AND if the devs can not produce with double the money asked for, what would have happened if they just made their goal? 

-=And this is becoming commonplace with KS. Low ball the initial amount to get people vested. This is going to make regular rabid fanboys look  tame once someones money is tired up in an unfinished idea . I already seee "salesmen" all over the place (not just here) pimping the game they have backed and justifying everything the company does.

-Oh well. Not my moneys. 

 

How do people like this form such a strong opinion on something that they have no clue about?   Honestly, I'm not going to refute your points since it's a waste of time on people like you....so I'll just ask anyone who has an open mind to do some actual research before posting crap like this.  It's not constructive, it's inaccurate, and it's disruptive.

Waiting on: The Repopulation

  JC-Smith

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/11
Posts: 310

1/03/14 3:12:10 AM#48
@Jacxolope: Most of the things you have said have been address previously but here goes:

- The Repopulation was designed  using heavy use of generation and funded it all out of our own pocket initially. It was certainly a smaller scale project at the time, but players liked the ideas and it started receiving interest. We had a good team but everyone was working day jobs. Kickstarter at that time was brand new, and we never really even considered using it. A few months before the first Kickstarter (18 months ago) users started a thread on our forum and kept suggesting it. They basically sold us on the idea. We figured whatever amount it brought in could be used on contractors to help bring the game to market more quickly. It wasn't about give us $25k and we'll make a game. It was about whatever money this does generate will be spent to beef up the games team so that we can build a better game.

- The years of the engines costing you a million up front are gone. There are indie programs for everything nowadays that allow you to minimize your start up cost. A lot also goes on officers, power, and hardware. For an indies, working on their own computers in their own homes though, the cost is largely based on salaries or contractors. If your team is working for free or for cheap, as most of our team is, that significantly lowers the cost. Nobody makes fair market value on our team, and much of the team is foregoing pay. In some cases so they do not violate no compete clauses, and in others because they simply believe in the project and want to see it completed, knowing that there are budget constraints that simply won't allow it.

- This project has been in full scale development since 2011. Though we dabbled with other engines before that, we didn't go into full scale production until 2011 when Hero Engine became available and after having a few months to familiarize it ourselves with it (at the end of 2010). I'll give you a fun fact. It was announced months after Everquest: Next, which will ship after The Repopulation. And it's had a smaller budget in that time than EQ: Next probably spends in a month. If you try to go by traditional MMO budgets, that should not be possible. You'd be hard pressed to find any MMO which started development after us and has already shipped, or which is significantly further along than we are. You can't think in the same terms money wise when your talking about indie developers. A little bit of money can stretch a long way. We certainly may have been overambitious in our initial time frame, and we apologize for that. But in general development has gone on at a smooth pace, minus a couple of setbacks.

- We don't expect anyone to pledge. When there isn't an option available though, players request it. The features from this Kickstarter are largely in part player requests. There's threads about them on our forums, and emails to our staff, as well. We for example planned to ship with vehicles only. Users want mounts, they add some value to tamers and have a coolness factor. They've asked repeatedly about this over the years. We agree, but since the functionality is covered in vehicles it's hard to pull programmers and artists off other stuff that is needed. This handles that problem and allows those features to get in game. That's what this Kickstarter is all about as we've stated before. If people want to pledge, the option is available. If they don't feel comfortable pledging or don't think the game is worth pledging to, we'd invite them to apply for beta or check the game out when it launches.

- The $50k isn't enough argument is common, but it's not a valid argument. The reality is that setting a goal too high is counter-productive. For one, if it looks like your project is falling behind and won't hit it's goal, people stop backing, which makes it impossible to reach. You need to set a goal that you are pretty confident you will reach. It's not uncommon for games to reach that goal several times over in the campaign, much of it is momentum based. If a project needs $100k or it can't be built, it makes sense to set a $100k goal. If you don't reach it you scrap the idea or go back to the drawing board. Repop isn't a project like that. If we never reached our goals the project wasn't going to cancel. It would have just taken longer to build and not been nearly as good of a game as it is becoming. So for us it would have made zero sense to set an high goal in either campaign. The pledges help us immensely, but we'd find a way to moonlight the game to launch no matter even in an apocalpyse. Too much time has gone into this project and it's too far along already to even consider otherwise.

- To say that a second Kickstarter is not okay, but an ever-running online store accepting the same pledges for the same thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Most of the upcoming crowd-funded titles have on-site stores where players who missed the Kickstarters can continue pledging. Over time those will make more money than the shorter Kickstarter campaigns, though less per month. They don't really obsolete what Kickstarter does though. Kickstarter is also a promotional tool. It's easier for some people to use, and it's shorter windowed approach is ideal for something like our current stretch goal campaign. It makes a lot of sense given it's intended goals. And it's helped introduce the game to new players, which also benefits existing players.

- The logic of sucking your older backers out of money because they have to help it get done, isn't accurate. To give you a good example of that, under 12% of this campaign's backers are bump ups who pledged to previous campaigns. The bulk of those are new players who weren't around 18 months ago, or didn't feel at that time that the game was worth backing. We do get bump ups from previous backers, but in general people back and then just wait for launch or their testing invite (quite a few are already testing). Our backers don't need to have any concerns about the game getting built. They should welcome these types of campaigns because it helps us build a better game at launch. If our goal was simply to push the game to market, we could likely have the game ready to ship in under two months. Our goal isn't to put out a buggy and incomplete product though, it's to carve ourselves a nice space in the MMO market. Rushing to launch does not accomplish those goals. We'd much rather deal with some players being upset that it took us longer to get to market than they had hoped, than to deal with players not playing the game after it launches because it needed more time in the oven.

http://www.therepopulation.com - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  Jacxolope

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

1/03/14 2:32:47 PM#49
Originally posted by JC-Smith
@Jacxolope: Most of the things you have said have been address previously but here goes:

- The Repopulation was designed  using heavy use of generation and funded it all out of our own pocket initially. It was certainly a smaller scale project at the time, but players liked the ideas and it started receiving interest. We had a good team but everyone was working day jobs. Kickstarter at that time was brand new, and we never really even considered using it. A few months before the first Kickstarter (18 months ago) users started a thread on our forum and kept suggesting it. They basically sold us on the idea. We figured whatever amount it brought in could be used on contractors to help bring the game to market more quickly. It wasn't about give us $25k and we'll make a game. It was about whatever money this does generate will be spent to beef up the games team so that we can build a better game.

MY RESPONSES WILL BE IN 'EYE BLEEDING' RED =D

-First please nderstand that even though this thread is about 'your' game- I am generalizing far more than trying to be specific to your particular situation. It just so happens that your game is following the exact same pattern that I am seeing with the few MMORPG's I am seeing being Kickstarted.

In every case the Develpores seem to "change their mind" either during or after getting funding (always based on "user feedback") which changes/delays or otherwise slows develpoment through additional things not originally discussed during the first KS.

"Greed Monger" (another game I have been following) has said almost the exact same thing- Jason Appleton didnt  'need' the money since he was funding what wasnt reached "out of pocket". After getting over twicce the money asked for the team changed everything (including the scope of the game) and essentially said "the community asked for this" so here come the delays and another KS needed to "add these features YOU wanted"... The problem is, this shows a lack of planning since the 'game' itself was kickstarted promising X and no matter the reason (sure...Its always for the 'fans' and 'backers') the bar keeps moving.

-This could happen forever.

Not saying this is intentional or even the case here (I dont know ...) but it seems to be what is happening with every MMORPG I am seeing on KS.... There is not one (I have seen) that has stuck with the original plan and followed through (on time) but instead things keep being added, changed and the bar keeps moving . This could potentially go on forever.

 

- The years of the engines costing you a million up front are gone. There are indie programs for everything nowadays that allow you to minimize your start up cost. A lot also goes on officers, power, and hardware. For an indies, working on their own computers in their own homes though, the cost is largely based on salaries or contractors. If your team is working for free or for cheap, as most of our team is, that significantly lowers the cost. Nobody makes fair market value on our team, and much of the team is foregoing pay. In some cases so they do not violate no compete clauses, and in others because they simply believe in the project and want to see it completed, knowing that there are budget constraints that simply won't allow it.

Thats good- Thats how most people start a business. When my Cousing started his Construction company not only did he work for free (for years) but also went very far into debt and funded everything on his own. Nothing unusal or noteworthy here.

IF this is a success you stand to make Millions. Figuring that this was primarily fan funded your risk is very low and there isnt much 'loss' other than time and effort. 

You also are gaining equity in (I am being general here0 an Engine and assets. Rather than doing what most small business owners do and plunging yourself deep into debt, you are starting near or close to even, equity already there and very low overhead thanks to the fans who funded this. Most Millionaires who start their own business work for free for YEARS while building the company and the equity in it. If someone provides THAT part of the business and its a success you stand to start making pure profit almost immediatley after launch. This is unheard of and the biggest part of your risk is only in Labor. Sounds like a good deal to me...

 

- This project has been in full scale development since 2011. Though we dabbled with other engines before that, we didn't go into full scale production until 2011 when Hero Engine became available and after having a few months to familiarize it ourselves with it (at the end of 2010). I'll give you a fun fact. It was announced months after Everquest: Next, which will ship after The Repopulation. And it's had a smaller budget in that time than EQ: Next probably spends in a month. If you try to go by traditional MMO budgets, that should not be possible. You'd be hard pressed to find any MMO which started development after us and has already shipped, or which is significantly further along than we are. You can't think in the same terms money wise when your talking about indie developers. A little bit of money can stretch a long way. We certainly may have been overambitious in our initial time frame, and we apologize for that. But in general development has gone on at a smooth pace, minus a couple of setbacks.

- We don't expect anyone to pledge. When there isn't an option available though, players request it. The features from this Kickstarter are largely in part player requests. There's threads about them on our forums, and emails to our staff, as well. We for example planned to ship with vehicles only. Users want mounts, they add some value to tamers and have a coolness factor. They've asked repeatedly about this over the years. We agree, but since the functionality is covered in vehicles it's hard to pull programmers and artists off other stuff that is needed. This handles that problem and allows those features to get in game. That's what this Kickstarter is all about as we've stated before. If people want to pledge, the option is available. If they don't feel comfortable pledging or don't think the game is worth pledging to, we'd invite them to apply for beta or check the game out when it launches.

- The $50k isn't enough argument is common, but it's not a valid argument. The reality is that setting a goal too high is counter-productive. For one, if it looks like your project is falling behind and won't hit it's goal, people stop backing, which makes it impossible to reach. You need to set a goal that you are pretty confident you will reach. It's not uncommon for games to reach that goal several times over in the campaign, much of it is momentum based. If a project needs $100k or it can't be built, it makes sense to set a $100k goal. If you don't reach it you scrap the idea or go back to the drawing board. Repop isn't a project like that. If we never reached our goals the project wasn't going to cancel. It would have just taken longer to build and not been nearly as good of a game as it is becoming. So for us it would have made zero sense to set an high goal in either campaign. The pledges help us immensely, but we'd find a way to moonlight the game to launch no matter even in an apocalpyse. Too much time has gone into this project and it's too far along already to even consider otherwise.

Thats a good answer and I am agree. Its far easier to ask for 20K and come back 3 times rather than asking for 60K right off the bat. 

I am glad that isnt what you guys are doing and I want you to also understand I really wish you luck (game sounds good) The problem I have is that this seems to be happening with may, many projects and tehey are still not released. It seems to be the norm and not the exceptions.

 

- To say that a second Kickstarter is not okay, but an ever-running online store accepting the same pledges for the same thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Most of the upcoming crowd-funded titles have on-site stores where players who missed the Kickstarters can continue pledging. Over time those will make more money than the shorter Kickstarter campaigns, though less per month. They don't really obsolete what Kickstarter does though. Kickstarter is also a promotional tool. It's easier for some people to use, and it's shorter windowed approach is ideal for something like our current stretch goal campaign. It makes a lot of sense given it's intended goals. And it's helped introduce the game to new players, which also benefits existing players.

I agree.

- The logic of sucking your older backers out of money because they have to help it get done, isn't accurate. To give you a good example of that, under 12% of this campaign's backers are bump ups who pledged to previous campaigns. The bulk of those are new players who weren't around 18 months ago, or didn't feel at that time that the game was worth backing. We do get bump ups from previous backers, but in general people back and then just wait for launch or their testing invite (quite a few are already testing). Our backers don't need to have any concerns about the game getting built. They should welcome these types of campaigns because it helps us build a better game at launch. If our goal was simply to push the game to market, we could likely have the game ready to ship in under two months. Our goal isn't to put out a buggy and incomplete product though, it's to carve ourselves a nice space in the MMO market. Rushing to launch does not accomplish those goals. We'd much rather deal with some players being upset that it took us longer to get to market than they had hoped, than to deal with players not playing the game after it launches because it needed more time in the oven.

I hope this is the case.

The problem (as I see it) is that talk is cheap (no offense towards you) and very little is actually forthcoming. I cannot wait to see this game released with working features and not a buggy mess- It will be the first "sandbox' in years that has done that. Most of the "sandbox" games out there are STILL buggy messes after years and years and funding and funding and funding.

In my line of work when we get funding (from anywhere) we have to answer for our descisions and have a ton of oversight. We could clam anything we wanted but there are people watching the books. If we get funding and then change or add anything we coould potentially face lawsuits and/or having to return that money. And changes we make must be approved even if our changes are great ideas.

So yeah- My problem (at the moment) is that this seems to be following the pattern of the other MMORPG's I a seeing doing crowd funding and unttil something is actually produced- I have red flags all around (right or wrong) and since every MMORPG on KS seems to be doing the exact same thing, using the exact same talking points etc... Its not something I can believe until I see it.

-And this isnt your fault either. You are probably 100% sincere. I hope so. And I hpe you can do this.

-No offense. When I am talkng here I am tarring all of you with a broad brush who is KSing an MMORPG (yes..Its unfair) but I cannot wait to be proven wrong and have a great sandbox to play in.

 

  xpiher

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3297

1/11/14 6:59:58 AM#50
Posted above would be correct if the second kick starter wasn't requested by 100s of people who missed the first round 


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

1/25/14 1:11:33 AM#51
Originally posted by Ice-Queen

Just a bit annoying to me. So they've went through their funds already and have new ideas, and wanna have a new Kickstarter?

Doesn't seem very focused and managing well to me, and that's concerning if I decided to play the game. Why are they not polishing the the game they have with the money they got from people already, get revenew coming in and then add more things? Just seems a shady way to start out and the game isn't even going to be released for years now if they keep begging for more money and trying to add more stuff.

 

Not sure it bothers me but I am surprised it's allowed by the Kickstarter rules.  What's to keep a "company" from just continuously  having Kickstarters every 1.5 years?  Are three Kickstarters for the same game allowed?  Four?

  Royalkin

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/05
Posts: 276

If you can dream it... you can achieve it.

1/25/14 1:50:14 AM#52
Originally posted by Trekkan

It's not like they are asking for a ton of cash... they are only asking half of my personal salary per year.  That hardly pays for a ton of development work, software licencing, artists, designers, etc...  

So... like anything else, if you don't agree with it, don't support it.   

 

Yup, it's this simple. Some of you should stop trying to be the wise sage and mange how other people spend their money...



  grndzro

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 1095

1/25/14 1:51:39 AM#53
It's that stupid game engine they used....
  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2501

1/25/14 2:04:49 AM#54
Originally posted by Big_Data

I see no problem with a second Kickstarter.  No different than EQN Landmark selling pioneer packs.  More money leads to a better product which leads to more money.

Plus, the Repop folks have been pretty communicative about their progress.

 SWTOR is a prime example of more money doesn't equal a better product.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

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