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The Repopulation Forum » General Discussion » Free to Play, why?

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150 posts found
  JC-Smith

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/11
Posts: 323

10/03/13 11:51:06 PM#121
Actually, it completely addresses those. Your going to have those whether your P2P or F2P. Not having a barrier of entry certainly makes it easier for them to create a new account, but those types of players are there for two one of two things:

a) To make money, often hired by a gold reseller. Those guys are just as bad on P2P as F2P. It's nothing for the parent company to buy a sub. They write that off as part of the cost of operation. Sub or no sub, it doesn't matter. Modern approaches to these are detection and ban for botters, and auto-detection for spammers. If someone is a gold farmer, they absolutely do not want to get caught because it takes time to skill up to be able to do the upper tier harvestables. Getting banned costs them money even in a F2P game because they need to skill up again.

or

b) To grief. They are playing to ruin the fun of others, because to them that is the fun. The mechanics there are in minimizing their effectiveness in being able to do so. If it's spamming people, then its in anti-flood and ignore techniques. If it's in dropping a train on someone, then the issue is the ability to do so. You repair the mechanic and remove their ability to grief other players. If they are stealing kills, then again it's a mechanical issue that you can repair. If a player is playing solely to grief they will get bored and move on quickly if they have no way to do so. And if they are a normal player, who just happens to be a jerk, they will still think twice about getting banned, because they don't want to lose the time.

With regards to economy, that's a whole different can of worms, and it is tied into pay to win or not. I agree with you in that the majority of F2P games on the market have attempted to squeeze players,as they try to find the optimal values for profit. We've also see a lot of them slowly move away from that over time. Many of the titles which started off with F2P being just an avenue to try to get subscribers, eventually opened just about everything up to F2P players. While some titles definitely allow players to buy their way to power, there are others which are purely cosmetic, or which only allow things like +25-33% exp potions maximum (which is often less than the 100% bonus from vitality/rest exp). It really depends on the approach taken. If you are allowing players to buy items of power, or harvestable resources, then your game has become pay to win and that is a very strong argument against F2P. However, not all games take that route, and Repop will not.

The opposite of that approach is to value free and paying players alike. And to instead try to use volume of players to make up for what is lost revenue per player. That's the route we are taking. We want every MMO player out there to try the game. It's not going to be for everyone, it's a sandbox. Some players are going to love it, some will hate it. If they hate it, we aren't trying to trick them into buying it. Try it out free of charge. If you like it, maybe you buy a one time membership to unlock some account perks, or maybe you buy a couple things piecemail. Maybe you play forever without ever spending a dime, or maybe it's not for you and you move on. I guess I just don't get how players could see that as a bad thing. You have nothing to lose other than the time it takes to download and register.

As far as $20 not being a barrier of entry, it could be $1 and still be a barrier of entry. In order to pay $1 players need to have a credit card, and to fill out forms for it. They need to wonder if they are going to charged per month automatically, etc. Many players may not have that information available at the time, or want to be hassled with it, especially if they are playing on a public computer.

http://www.therepopulation.com - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  MMO-Veteran

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/13
Posts: 47

10/04/13 12:15:18 AM#122
A lot of games with similar concepts have failed miserably; I'm sure they're taking the route they see the most success from although I wish the new model was just Buy 2 Play. 
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

10/04/13 12:16:19 AM#123

I am interested in this game and I am going to play. But if it wasn't F2P my friends would not.

That was the first thing they asked me when I started telling them about the game, because they are tired of buying crap that they stop playing after two months.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  MMO-Veteran

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/13
Posts: 47

10/04/13 12:19:09 AM#124
Originally posted by ignore_me

I am interested in this game and I am going to play. But if it wasn't F2P my friends would not.

That was the first thing they asked me when I started telling them about the game, because they are tired of buying crap that they stop playing after two months.

I don't mean to mock your friends but getting 2 months life out of a game that cost 40-50 bucks is really good these days... Think they release 60$ ... (65 after taxes) games that have a 4-10 hour story line.

  cirsyndic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/29/10
Posts: 280

10/06/13 12:33:38 PM#125

There's a lot of gamers out there who have been burned one too many times by bad developers making bad games. They would never consider paying for a game based on promises or advertised features.

 

From a personal perspective, while I can recognize the potential in the features Repop aims towards, I certainly won't donate or pay for something I haven't tried and decided it's worth my money. I share the "burned one too many times" story with a lot of gamers out there.

 

How does this relate to the OP? Quite simply, if the game is good it will attract the "undesireable fauna" anyway. If the game is bad, then it'll simply be just another indy sandbox with 20-30 diehard fanboys deluding themselves about potential and hordes of players that will come play right after XYZ feature is finished and polished. F2P only serves as means to increase the number of players trying the game out.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

10/06/13 12:43:40 PM#126
Originally posted by Akerbeltz


I think the ideal model for a substantial MMORPG is a subscription based one: it gives a sense of exclusivity to the gamer, very especially when a particular MMORPG looks oriented to a niche public that looks for a long-term gaming experience. In addition to this, I think the subscription model in certain way ensures customer’s tranquility with regards to maintenance, missions updates, dev run events and the so. No need to mention that, in my opinion, a subscription model discourages undesirable MMO fauna (trolls, kids, MMO tourists…).

For the reasons given above, I have the sensation that FTP might not be the best model for The Repop. Anyway, this could be a personal prejudice or perhaps there’s something I’m not getting.

What is your opinion about this?

 

It is the underlined. Your paragraph above that has been proven wrong so many times its sickening to think some people still attempt to claim that a subscription means anything other than a company fleecing consumers.

The only wrong way to do F2P is to do it the western way, if they go the Asian route it will mean nothing other than larger profits than anything they could hope to get with another model, which is another thing that has been proven so many times its sickening that western companies just plain don't get it because they are so focused on the old ways.

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 512

10/06/13 12:53:12 PM#127
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Akerbeltz


I think the ideal model for a substantial MMORPG is a subscription based one: it gives a sense of exclusivity to the gamer, very especially when a particular MMORPG looks oriented to a niche public that looks for a long-term gaming experience. In addition to this, I think the subscription model in certain way ensures customer’s tranquility with regards to maintenance, missions updates, dev run events and the so. No need to mention that, in my opinion, a subscription model discourages undesirable MMO fauna (trolls, kids, MMO tourists…).

For the reasons given above, I have the sensation that FTP might not be the best model for The Repop. Anyway, this could be a personal prejudice or perhaps there’s something I’m not getting.

What is your opinion about this?

 

It is the underlined. Your paragraph above that has been proven wrong so many times its sickening to think some people still attempt to claim that a subscription means anything other than a company fleecing consumers.

The only wrong way to do F2P is to do it the western way, if they go the Asian route it will mean nothing other than larger profits than anything they could hope to get with another model, which is another thing that has been proven so many times its sickening that western companies just plain don't get it because they are so focused on the old ways.

Could you enlighten all of us westerner about the great eastern way please ? You mean the pay per minutes of game time ? I mean, you could tell all those helpless suits about that secret way to make huge amount of money. You make it sounds so plain and easy you certainly are a wealthy men.

  Cymdai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1086

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

11/03/13 3:42:06 PM#128

As a person who has been involved with smaller studios before, F2P is still the way to go early on, especially in today's market.

Take a look at how Riot Games and League of Legends started. While the fears of community are certainly well-founded with that game, look at the success it has developed over the past 3 years. I don't believe the game would have EVER had that level of success were it not for the fact that it was free (which was actually the only reason I tried it originally)

The key to successful communities in a game, or in any venture for that matter, is the foundation. If you attract a mere 2000 players who are solid contributors, active players, friendly, helpful, and there for the long haul, more people WILL come. It's inevitable. 

I think the bigger problem with this game as it stands is that no one knows about it. If I hadn't stumbled across the kickstarter a year ago (by accident, mind you) I wouldn't have been keeping tabs on this game. It's one thing to worry about managing your community; it's another thing to not even have a community in place because information about the game is so isolated.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  IsilithTehroth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 142

12/06/13 10:42:43 PM#129
They should make the game subscription based,  but allow the intial purchase free and the first month as well; so we can guage how well the game is. F2P is just garbage in my opinion and always ends up with the lowest form of community, cash shops that are P2W and lower population that constantly dwindles down. I prefer my games to be subcription based; even if they are trash.

MurderHerd

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1709

12/06/13 11:03:20 PM#130
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by CyclopsSlayer
F2P is the death of Community. Players seem to feel much more dedicated to a P2P world, when it comes to things like Guilds and group activities. In every F2P game I have played so far guilds and such groups seem to fail time and time again as people feel little need to log on and work together. RP seems to be in need of a strong group and coordinated activity, F@P does not support such.

Aside from EVE and WoW name two communities of P2P games which are dedicated to their game more than the best F2P communities, until such a time keep your opinions under the format of opinions not facts.

I have been through 3 mmos that converted from p2p to f2p. All 3 times the community changed abruptly and forever. Many long standing guilds fell apart (there have been several reasons behind this but f2p conversion has been a documented reason behind many that I have seen first hand) and the previous p2p community became extremely vocal on forums about the conversion. 

 

One specific example which nobody can deny is Lorto. When it converted f2p the community was shattered and was never the same since. I refer specifically to the time frame when this occurred.

 

Do not be so harsh on other people's "opinions" as you say. When you live through those experiences they are more than opinion. They are very much fact to those impacted by the change. Despite your somewhat conceited and obviously ignorant statement, there will be many many more who have experienced the same within mmos just like me.

 

There are massive differences between how a p2p and a f2p game is made. It affects all areas of the game, how you access content and how content enters the game. There is absolutely no possibility that a p2p community can be the same as a f2p community.

You stay sassy!

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

12/07/13 12:01:37 AM#131
Originally posted by GwapoJosh
F2p is the only thing I hate about The Ropop..  It is a game that will need a great community and f2p brings so much trash.

Agreed. As if I wrote this myself. I take solace this way: It's probably better for Repop to be F2P out of the gate rather then be forced into a decision to convert later. That's what I tell myself anyway.

But would it help if I said I'd spend $75 a month to sub? (It's how much my wife and I spent in total per month for SWG pre-CU).

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

12/07/13 12:07:49 AM#132
Free to Play is why I will give it a pass.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  IG-88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/12
Posts: 132

12/07/13 4:02:38 AM#133

If i want to play it, i want to pay for it, simple as that.

And i do look forward to The Repopolation, im a backer and have followed its progress for a very long time.

 

 

  JC-Smith

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/11
Posts: 323

12/07/13 6:53:13 AM#134
Originally posted by Tamanous

There are massive differences between how a p2p and a f2p game is made. It affects all areas of the game, how you access content and how content enters the game. There is absolutely no possibility that a p2p community can be the same as a f2p community.

That really depends on how you approach the f2p aspects. In your examples, that's often what happens when P2P converts to F2P. They generally try to go the Freemium route, which involves gating off content and selling it to players piecemail. In many Freemium games the free player is basically equated to an extended free trial. They give you a taste test but try to give you enough incentive that you will subscribe, which generally unlocks everything.

The biggest problem I have with that approach is that it splits the community based on what players paid for what content. Then based on how many other restrictions are placed it can make free players feel inadequate. It just depends on how you approach free players. Are they there solely to encourage players to pay? Or are they beneficial either way? I personally feel the latter is correct. 

http://www.therepopulation.com - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

12/07/13 2:55:49 PM#135

The f2p aspect of this game is also keeping me from getting excited about it.  Not due to what it may or may not do the community but because of what f2p does to games in general.  I've seen people working on the game (or at least claiming to) post in these forums about how the cash shop will not be anything that affects the game but there is NOTHING that can be offered in a cash shop that does not affect a sandbox game.  Why? Because if crafting and player economy is suppose to be a part of the game then anything offered by the cash shop is something that could be made by a crafter (or be a part of some non-combat role) instead.

Also, I see two motivations for game developers going f2p.  One is to breath life into a dying game (or a game that will not do well otherwise) by increasing the population so those who are willing to pay for the game will have others to play with.  The other is greed.  If companies made more money off charging a monthly subscription than they do off cash shops, do you think so many would be going "free to play"?    There may be people who play "f2p" MMOs without ever paying a cent but, aside from those who willingly/knowingly dump large amounts of money into the game (the "I've got to have everything, be the best, get to the top the quickest,...and I don't care how much I have to spend to do it" crowd), there are also the players who will make an occassional purchase (purchasing a mount, unlocking certain zones of the game, unlocking certain class/race), those who will spend a limited amount of money each month (the "if I were paying a subscription I'd be spending $15 a month so I'm willing to spend that much on the game per month" crowd), and those who spend without realizing just how much they've spent (the whole trap of using something other than actual cash amounts as the prices for cash shop items, and only selling the cash shop currency in certain amounts...which are rarely equal to the amount of cash shop prices...so person buys $20usd worth of cash shop points, purchases a mount that they don't realize actually cost $17.50, then they have points left over so they decide to purchase something with the remaining points rather than let those points go to waste, but the item they choose cost more than the points they have left, most likely because there is very little if anything available in the cash shop costing the same as the points they have left, which means they end up purchasing another $10-20usd worth of cash shop points and on and on it goes).  People who design stores know how to do so in a way to get money out of customers.  Gaming companies that have cash shops aren't any different.  No gaming company that offers "f2p" is providing you with a free game out of the kindness of their heart, they are doing so because it makes them money.

  Retired

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/02/08
Posts: 722

12/07/13 3:05:19 PM#136
Originally posted by shirlnt

Not due to what it may or may not do the community but because of what f2p does to games in general. 

F2P keeps games alive in general. SWTOR, Aion, TERA, LOTRO, Conan, Vanguard, Rift, DDO,  DC Universe, etc, all were dying, each went F2P and it gave them all a new life. I really don't understand the argument of F2P. The Repopulation devs want a healthy game that has a lot of people playing . They don't want to die like Darkfall One, Warhammer and other games that are ghost towns because of subscription. If SWTOR, Aion, TERA, LOTRO, Conan, Vanguard, Rift, DDO,  DC Universe, can't survive off subscription, no game from here on out can. WOW and Eve have something new games don't...age, that is the only reason they can continue to run that model, any other game that tries it current day will go F2P eventually. Please don't say Final Fantasy, they already failed and had to reboot, so did Darkfall.

  JC-Smith

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/11
Posts: 323

12/08/13 1:01:36 AM#137
@shirlnt: 

The items sold in the cash shop are cosmetic shells. Those are not items that crafters would be doing for themselves for a profit in general. While shells will be craftable, there won't be much of a market for them. The market in those items is in the fittings.

Repop uses a shell/fitting system where the base item (armor piece or weapon) simply determines what type of item it is. It gives it the baseline values which won't be any different on a newbie item, a hard to find shell recipe, or on a shop item. They will all have the same stats. One type of a sniper rifle might be slower firing than another, for example, but they woulds both do the same DPS and have all the same stats otherwise. Shells do not take damage, and are basically just used to determine how something looks and its basic functionality. All shells are created equal.

Where the customization comes in is with the fittings. Shells generally all contain slots for 5 fittings. That's what people will be crafting primarily. Fittings are where all your stats come in. A firearms crafter could make a sniper rifle, but there won't be a lot of market for those because they are available as drops, from vendors, etc. They are easy to obtain, unless its a rare type. Their money market comes from making the five fittings for each weapon though. Those have a progression, they decay, there will constantly be a market for them.

Cosmetic items should not have any affect on the economy. If you bought yourself a new weapon shell, yeah your going to have a cool looking weapon. It's going to be the exact same weapon that another character could have gotten from doing a tutorial or newbie vendor in all other aspects though.

With regards to company motivations for going F2P, companies need money to stay afloat. If a game is going to stay online and have continued updates it needs to be profitable. Many of the games that went F2P were struggling as subscription games, then saw their profits leap significantly by going F2P. That has allowed those games to keep operating and to keep improving the games. Even if you make less money per player in F2P, you'll generally have a healthier game because you have more players, and MMOs need players. The MMO market is more competitive now than it's ever been. There are so many choices for players, and most of those games are now F2P. If you charge a subscription, your creating a barrier of entry for new potential players, where those other games are not. Unless you have a significant amount of money being pumped into marketing, that's a losing strategy.

http://www.therepopulation.com - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  makasouleater69

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/13
Posts: 437

12/10/13 6:44:23 PM#138
Originally posted by CyclopsSlayer
F2P is the death of Community. Players seem to feel much more dedicated to a P2P world, when it comes to things like Guilds and group activities. In every F2P game I have played so far guilds and such groups seem to fail time and time again as people feel little need to log on and work together. RP seems to be in need of a strong group and coordinated activity, F@P does not support such.

    I dont think that has anything to do with F2p, its just that all modern mmos dont encourage you to play with other players. 

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6744

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/10/13 6:52:17 PM#139

Why do people continue to use the term NICHE,there is nothing left in gaming that has not already been done a LOT !.

There can be the odd niche idea in a game,but not an entire game devoted to the term NCHE.

The real truth is REPOP was started by a guy with little money to fund a big project,that does not mean niche,that really means that it was destined to most likely be a double A game,not  a triple A game.

F2p is the ONLY option for games that have a very weak chance at succeeding,they need the F2p monicker,even though no such thing exists,just to encourage people to art least try the game.

It might be a ton misleading and down right unethical but a smart operation gets you hooked first then slowly adds more and more cost the further you become entrenched in that game.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

12/14/13 8:17:58 PM#140
Originally posted by Wizardry

Why do people continue to use the term NICHE,there is nothing left in gaming that has not already been done a LOT !.

...

Most do not use the term with it defined as you suggest. Instead they use it as a means to "backhanded slap" the game and belittle it. They want to create the impression that the game will only interest very few gamers and thus will not have a large population. In their view if it does not draw 1 million plus players then it is a niche game.

 

As far as the features of the game, most folks who make the statement that TR will be "niche" don't have a clue about the game's features to know if said features have been done before. They are most likely upset that they won't get another themepark game to flock to for 1-3 months, "win" it and then return to WoW. The few that do read and make such comment (niche) consider the features of the game "too much like a job" and don't want to be "penalized" for failing at a task.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

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