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Pathfinder Online Forum » General Discussion » To everyone who wants non-consensual PvP

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51 posts found
  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/23/13 8:18:02 AM#41

An Interview With 'Pathfinder Online' Developer Ryan Dancey

I’ve heard readers express concerns over “non-consensual PvP.” How will you account for these players?

 

Conflict is the beating heart of Pathfinder Online. Conflict is what drives the meaningful human interaction that we seek to create. Player vs. Player conflict is a core facet of that conflict. The players of most MMOs see PvP as a binary choice; either they are subjected to continuous unwanted hassle from players seeking to harass them, or they are protected from all PvP except in designated areas and at designated times. Many players have had really bad experiences with opponents who seek to inflict “grief” on their victims – attempting to ruin the game experience of others simply for their own amusement.

The widespread trend in MMOs is to gate all PvP content to shield the vast majority of the players from ever having to engage in it. We think this is unfortunate, and that PvP has a place in Pathfinder Online.

We think this is one of the places where we can truly innovate. We are working on offering a third choice – one that preserves the intense engagement and immersion that widespread PvP creates, while minimizing the effects of players who seek to inflict “grief” on others.

We have studied a lot of MMOs that offer PvP going all the way back to Ultima Online. Our conclusion is that there is no magic bullet which delivers a robust PvP experience while insuring against “griefers”. Our approach therefore is to use many different tactics working together in a “layered defense” against misbehavior. That approach includes things like making the consequences for attacking other characters quite steep, having a swift policy of intervening in the game when griefing is reported to our game moderators, and engaging with the community to avoid allowing the toxic bullying behavior that we see in many other games take root in Pathfinder Online.

We know a lot of players are skeptical of our ability to balance the competing agendas that PvP enables but I am confident that if those players give us a chance, we can change their minds.

 

  BrownAle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 402

6/25/13 11:27:01 AM#42

its not that hard.  Make a good criminal system.  Make sure there is tons of PVE content so that the only thing to do isn't kill others.  Give rewards for criminals who kill people who are better than them progression and gear wise.

 

You want to make it so a majority of the playerbase can engage in pvp if they want but not so much that its the only thing to do, and make pvp be a choice with consequences.  Not in a way that deters pvp but one that puts you in a group of people who are known to kill without reason.

I don't ever want to be in a situation where I want to kill some guy at a mob spawn for poor spawn manners but don't want to be red for a week because of it.

 

There needs to be a way to blend safe zones with open pvp areas, mixed with criminal and law factions...but allow for minimal pvp against people who deserve it without forcing you to go lawless or whatever.

 

hope that makes sense

 

  GrumpyHobbit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/23/13
Posts: 20

6/25/13 12:02:42 PM#43

In the real world the Psychopaths kill others just because they can or just because they want to. People that only kill for a reason such as to protect the country from invasion or law enforcement protecting their community are respected.

But if you create a virtual online world with PvP.....

It is considered normal to kill others in PvP just because you can or because you want to and people that only want to PvP for a reason, such as good RP or defend their land are considered the crazy ones.

 

Ironic huh?

 

At some point perhaps a virtual world will refelct the real world but until the Pscho switch is removed from the PvP'ers in an MMO all you will get is mindless PvP.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/25/13 12:09:01 PM#44
Originally posted by Zeppelin8

In every other post, there is a sophisticated definition of sandbox. Then we would all agree...

 

 

???

 

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1654

6/25/13 12:10:10 PM#45

What is amazing is that D&D was never EVER about pvp. Out of the hundreds of sessions I've played and the thousands of posts on D&D and D&D related fan sites I have read, pvp only occured in most peoples games likely less than 1% of the time.

 

I myself had a very few situations where character conflict created a fight and a very few arena style encounters or mind control stuff, etc. D&D is about role play. I am not talking about the crap 4e which is why Pathfinder became popular to begin with as old school D&D players hated it so much they jumped ship making WotC lose nearly all of their RP based fans.

 

So it amazes me greatly to hear Pathfinder being an open pvp system. I'm not saying it won't work but it is very interesting. I imagine they figure players will essentially be the DMs but sadly this is because in mmos the developers time and time again prove they are absolutely inept at being the DM. The ultimate D&D game should essentially be the ultimate pve game ... yet developers suck at making pve so much that they are now abandoning the concept and putting systems into the hands of the players. This is great when making a true sandbox game but not promising for pve virtual worlds when they aren't willing to actually improve systems like AI which has essentially stayed the same since the dawn of computer games.

 

As for pvp games being build from the ground up I would say CU is far more dedicated to it than this game will be.

You stay sassy!

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 874

6/25/13 1:15:58 PM#46
Originally posted by Tamanous

What is amazing is that D&D was never EVER about pvp. Out of the hundreds of sessions I've played and the thousands of posts on D&D and D&D related fan sites I have read, pvp only occured in most peoples games likely less than 1% of the time.

 

I myself had a very few situations where character conflict created a fight and a very few arena style encounters or mind control stuff, etc. D&D is about role play. I am not talking about the crap 4e which is why Pathfinder became popular to begin with as old school D&D players hated it so much they jumped ship making WotC lose nearly all of their RP based fans.

 

So it amazes me greatly to hear Pathfinder being an open pvp system. I'm not saying it won't work but it is very interesting. I imagine they figure players will essentially be the DMs but sadly this is because in mmos the developers time and time again prove they are absolutely inept at being the DM. The ultimate D&D game should essentially be the ultimate pve game ... yet developers suck at making pve so much that they are now abandoning the concept and putting systems into the hands of the players. This is great when making a true sandbox game but not promising for pve virtual worlds when they aren't willing to actually improve systems like AI which has essentially stayed the same since the dawn of computer games.

 

As for pvp games being build from the ground up I would say CU is far more dedicated to it than this game will be.

Well... technically in D&D sessions you are PvPing... against the DM.  Problem is that with PvE games everything is scripted and so predictable one can do it with their eyes closed.  PvP does offer that every changing behavior that DMs can exercise to make things challenging and fun.  Which is something that you can't do with a scripted AI behavior.

I'm not a PvPer but I know the real content will be in the form of PvP but PvP usually is infested in psychopathic griefers and what keeps me from PvP.  If there was a system that offered a way for meaningul  consequences on people who grief or simpely PvP to get their rocks off on "pawning that newb" then I would be all over it.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2741

6/25/13 2:05:22 PM#47

I wish PO all the best, but every time I've seen a game with open PVP try to introduce "meaningful penalties", it ends in disaster. There's endless crying on the forums about the game "punishing PVP'ers in a PVP game" and all sorts of other hyperbole.

 

There is little point in developing sophisticated rule sets to "force" people not to spend every logged-in minute trying to kill other players. Because if it succeeds, it means that all the effort of developing the systems, rules and animations behind the "outlaw" lifestyle will only ever be used by a tiny minority of players.

That's assuming it's even possible to design a system that can't be exploited or circumvented in some way. Remember, there will always be a handful of players that will make it their life's work to "get around the rules" and cause any and all kinds of possible grief. That's just human nature, which is greatly amplified and multiplied by internet anonimity.

  Phaserlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 687

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

6/25/13 2:10:40 PM#48
I certainly will be giving this a try when it comes out.  I wish the devs all the best.

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/26/13 4:43:16 AM#49

 

Originally posted by BrownAle

 

There needs to be a way to blend safe zones with open pvp areas, mixed with criminal and law factions...but allow for minimal pvp against people who deserve it without forcing you to go lawless or whatever.

 

I think the Hex system with different settlement LAWS will help here and Alignments so the map is a patchwork of variable PvP danger. Looking at the map it could work out that the West is more Lawful and the woods is more Wild and Chaotic in the West. Remains to be seen.

 

Originally posted by Tamanous

 

So it amazes me greatly to hear Pathfinder being an open pvp system. I'm not saying it won't work but it is very interesting. I imagine they figure players will essentially be the DMs but sadly this is because in mmos the developers time and time again prove they are absolutely inept at being the DM. The ultimate D&D game should essentially be the ultimate pve game ... yet developers suck at making pve so much that they are now abandoning the concept and putting systems into the hands of the players. This is great when making a true sandbox game but not promising for pve virtual worlds when they aren't willing to actually improve systems like AI which has essentially stayed the same since the dawn of computer games.

As for pvp games being build from the ground up I would say CU is far more dedicated to it than this game will be.

 

The difference according Ryan Dancey between a sandbox and themepark is that themepark you interact with the computer more and a sandbox you interact with players more - in so many words quote-unquote and a slight snipping of what was actually said. So Meaningful Human Interaction which includes PvP or P+P > PvE. Each player has a huge human brain behind their computer that AI can't even compare to. Secondly players like interacting with player in mmorpgs. I think Basically looking at the player types: Explorer, Socializer, Achiever and Killer, it's ideal if all these find somewhere to co-habit but with more of their own kind hence the Player factions and consequences for types of pvp that basically do not make economic sense. IE players get to create their own social communitities with the killers to simplify living out in the sticks as outlaws in their pig-stye settlements, socializers living in lawful good communities etc. The thing is to let the players create the player-infrastructure of the game itself that then takes care of what sort of thing types of players like best. Obviously GW will have to come up with strong ways to regulate exploiters eg gold-farmers, griefers, botters, hackers and all the other stuff mmorpgs have to deal with.

I think PFO looks a bit like Game Of Thrones, with the Dungeoneering of D&D parties and eg Elder Scrolls game world of eg cities that provide content for players to form in-game identities Merchant, Guard etc.

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

6/26/13 6:23:01 AM#50

Take EvE Online and turn it into a fantasy-styled MMO with characters instead of spaceships. Waiting for such a game since 2005.

It can be done, but a developer needs balls and great vision to do that, just like CCP some 10-12 years back in time.

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

6/26/13 6:47:22 AM#51


Originally posted by GrumpyHobbit
In the real world the Psychopaths kill others just because they can or just because they want to. People that only kill for a reason such as to protect the country from invasion or law enforcement protecting their community are respected.

But if you create a virtual online world with PvP.....

It is considered normal to kill others in PvP just because you can or because you want to and people that only want to PvP for a reason, such as good RP or defend their land are considered the crazy ones.

Ironic huh?

At some point perhaps a virtual world will refelct the real world but until the Pscho switch is removed from the PvP'ers in an MMO all you will get is mindless PvP.


Look at EvE Online. Allmost all PvP happens for a reason there. Territorial, economical or personal.

If the game is built around PvP from the ground up and has a system in place to punish those, who kill for the wrong reason, then it does work like a charm.

1. killing players of the other faction(s) is allways legitimate and not punishable.
2. killing players you're at war with is legitimate and not punishable after officially declaring war against a guild/faction.
3. killing players, if they enter your territory is allways legitimate and not punishable (NBSI-policy / self-defence).
4. killing players outside civilization is allways legitimate and not punishable (Darwinism / survival of the fittest).
5. killing players, because of other reasons (economical, racist, religious, etc...) is allways legitimate, but in that case you should face punishment for your actions.

These 5 points are the core PvP-mechanics to make a FFA PvP game work.

The punishment can come in various forms, like being instantly killed by godlike NPC-guards (CONCORD in EvE), getting your status lowered to exclude you from civilization, getting put into jail, making you pay reimbursement, whatever.

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