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Action MMO | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 01/30/13)  | Pub:Sony Online Entertainment
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Wizardry Online Forum » General Discussion » Concerns about forced PK - Griefers heaven

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66 posts found
  olalonde

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/10
Posts: 9

11/27/12 10:18:42 PM#41

Permadeath in this game is almost non existant though. I don't have much thrill from playing it as I do playing hc path of exile or hc diablo. Just saying you might not be missing much. =P

  Drakaden

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/07
Posts: 118

 
OP  11/27/12 10:30:10 PM#42
Originally posted by olalonde

Permadeath in this game is almost non existant though. I don't have much thrill from playing it as I do playing hc path of exile or hc diablo. Just saying you might not be missing much. =P

Ahh but the topic wasn't about perma death, it was about PvP, perma death is something that is already established before you even start to play.

  Drakaden

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/07
Posts: 118

 
OP  11/27/12 10:33:32 PM#43
Originally posted by Uzik

QQ

 

There are plenty of non-PK games out there for cry babies who weep at the thought of lost pixels.

Thank you for sharing this non-constructive pearl of wisdom with us.

Yes we know there are plenty of those out there, it doesn't prevent people from discussing the flaws in this game.

  Xarru

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/05
Posts: 38

11/27/12 11:43:32 PM#44


Originally posted by Drakaden

Originally posted by Uzik QQ   There are plenty of non-PK games out there for cry babies who weep at the thought of lost pixels.
Thank you for sharing this non-constructive pearl of wisdom with us.

Yes we know there are plenty of those out there, it doesn't prevent people from discussing the flaws in this game.


But this is not a flaw, it's a deliberate design decision made by developer. From my understanding they are very direct about owPvP, PK, and permanent death, so you can make decision before even trying this game.

  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

11/28/12 12:26:07 AM#45
Originally posted by Uzik

QQ

 

There are plenty of non-PK games out there for cry babies who weep at the thought of lost pixels.

I don't agree with the use of QQ or name callin, but he's right. The fact is, it's a PvP game. Deal with it. Go play something else if you can't. I'm not a pker, but I don't like dull games.

I'm just so damn tired of people latching onto a game that says it's an open PvP game, only to say PvP's going to ruin the game, or ask for some PvE only server bull shit.

If you get killed once and you quit, well then you probably shouldn't be playing a hard core game. You can make threats about leaving all you want, we know you're going to be playing the game for your weekly total of half an hour. Isn't it great when casuals come and try to change a game? You know they're going to quit in 5 more play sessions anyways, if they ever get that far.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

11/28/12 12:55:19 AM#46

   I mostly agree with you guys in regard to the fact this game is pretty open about its PvP and Permadeath situation.  The fact a PvE server was even requested shows a disconnect from what the game is made for.  BUT, I will say that it doesn't mean that its using a perfect system either.  The by and large issue with most PvP games is disparity between players.  Guild Wars is on the best end of the spectrum, being a game designed around PvP with the most sense of balance.  On the other end, the bad end, we have F2P games with a high pay to win tolerance.  EVE falls closer to GW...there is still great disparity in regard to players with more skill training having an advantage, but it still leaves options open to new players so that they CAN contribute in a meaninful way.  Thats the real question.  Does this game offer new players a way to contribute meaningfully, or are newbies simply fodder? 

  Because if they are just fodder, well....

  The system is garbage.  End of story.  The game is a flop.  What makes EVE a successful game with its cutthroat design is that a fresh player can quickly specialize in something that will make him useful and desirable to functioning guilds (corps).  So they WANT him, and WANT to help him.  He provides something to him.  If a player is just fodder, it makes him unimportant to vets.  They want players who can help keep them alive.  Dropping everything and placing themselves in danger for someone that matters not at all to them is not exactly likely.  So you have a legion of players constantly starting over and barely ever making skill progress, (to such a point that other players need and want them and care) and another group that is established and takes care of each other.  There is nothing to foster further community building.

  Now, at first, this causes nothing noticable.  Over time, player leave.  Most won't enjoy sitting at the bottom of the ladder for long.  The same trend happens to FPS games.  On release there is high chance of meeting players worse than you.  2 months later you feel like you are only playing the best of the best and losing a ton more.  The weak links leave, which then makes better players suddenly the weakest players.  Its a bleeding loss, and its not something FPS games notice as much because of how saturated the market is with them.  Take Call of Duty, each year a new one comes out.  That coincides nicely with the point at which the weak link bleed would have started to make the game annoying to play.

  I digress, I rambled more than I needed to here.  Those of you playing, could you answer my question though?  Is there a meaningful way for the youngling player to contribute in this game?  Or is it just a giant screwing until you luck your way to high skill levels and can finally fight back a little?  One of those I'd at least try and be open minded with.  The other I'll dodge like the plauge and never look back.

  Drakaden

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/07
Posts: 118

 
OP  11/28/12 1:31:24 AM#47
Originally posted by Gishgeron

  I digress, I rambled more than I needed to here.  Those of you playing, could you answer my question though?  Is there a meaningful way for the youngling player to contribute in this game?  Or is it just a giant screwing until you luck your way to high skill levels and can finally fight back a little?  One of those I'd at least try and be open minded with.  The other I'll dodge like the plauge and never look back.

I would say, from my experience, that you start as not very valuable, since your character cannot go in places where the high levels would needs you to be, and you wouldn't have the survivability to go with, they could invest time in you so you can get to their levels, but that's fairly time consuming, they would rather find someone around their level in order to progress i think, unlike a FPS game, this game is level/gear/class skills based, so, there's no way a level 1 can possibly help a level 20 in their quests/monsters hunts for example, unless this level 1 is an alt of a level 20 that already unlocked those dungeons, then he can follow (I think? Would need confirmed), but it's still a level 1 with low survivability, so you would mostly just be 1 hit fodder.

  olalonde

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/10
Posts: 9

11/28/12 6:15:48 AM#48

What makes a successful game with its cutthroat design is that a fresh player can quickly specialize in something that will make him useful and desirable to functioning guilds (corps).  So they WANT him, and WANT to help him.  He provides something to him.  If a player is just fodder, it makes him unimportant to vets.  They want players who can help keep them alive.  Dropping everything and placing themselves in danger for someone that matters not at all to them is not exactly likely.  So you have a legion of players constantly starting over and barely ever making skill progress, (to such a point that other players need and want them and care) and another group that is established and takes care of each other.  There is nothing to foster further community building


This is a good point. It's not completely true in Wizardry Online's case though. You're not useful at low levels unless your a thief but you can get powered leveled or rush to a certain point VERY quickly and alot of things counter balance that feeling of being last of the ladder like max level difference for instance. At low level your useless, but you can faster become useful. For example I play warrior and my friend plays priest, and my 3rd friend (who actually started playing yesterday ) is level 1 thief or mage I think. I will not power level him for his first time but ill give him tips and run to him as soon as pks show up, wich is a good trade off compared to grouping with him and rushing him through quests considered how close dungeons are to each other. I'm hoping guild will do the same for new members. We need thief to disarm traps and open chests, wich will make a huge difference, even if hes low level. The only question is: does he want to skip content just to start playing with us faster ? There are lots of reasons to want to help someone get rid of a pk such as bounty and looting his corpse.

Theres also this NEAT soul level system wich at for example I am soul lvl 3, I can wear soul level 3 gear on all my alts ( on this soul) as well as earn a 50% bonus exp from monsters and quests, as well as having all dungeons unlocked and cleared ( with maps available). What I'm saying is making an alt is so fast and soul exp keeps going towards your main its very much worth it to help a friend this way instead of using your main.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/28/12 6:37:12 AM#49
Originally posted by goatus


Originally posted by Drakaden

Originally posted by Uzik QQ   There are plenty of non-PK games out there for cry babies who weep at the thought of lost pixels.
Thank you for sharing this non-constructive pearl of wisdom with us.

Yes we know there are plenty of those out there, it doesn't prevent people from discussing the flaws in this game.


But this is not a flaw, it's a deliberate design decision made by developer. From my understanding they are very direct about owPvP, PK, and permanent death, so you can make decision before even trying this game.

In his mind, if the features are not designed specifically for him, then the game is flawed. He's not unique in that view. That kind of thinking is rather pervasive here. Worse, they can't let it go as not being for them, they have to 'warn' others abvout it, as well.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
11/28/12 7:29:35 AM#50

I keep seeing people mention "but Japan is different". Erm so what? I wasn't aware this game replete with PD and PKing was being aimed at the generic, mass Euro/US casual market audience.

 

Amazingly enough there are players outside of Asia who are actually interested in such systems. What the games performance in Japan demonstrates is that the mechanics are potentially viable for players actually interested in said mechanics in the first place.

  XxGrimmxX

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

11/28/12 7:52:59 AM#51
So why not go to the extreme since this is an extreme game--ganking a player under your level, or maybe under some level range, will result in your character not being able to be revived (0% chance) if you die while red. See? Easy peasy.
  Drakaden

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/07
Posts: 118

 
OP  11/28/12 8:29:13 AM#52
Originally posted by Loktofeit
In his mind, if the features are not designed specifically for him, then the game is flawed. He's not unique in that view. That kind of thinking is rather pervasive here. Worse, they can't let it go as not being for them, they have to 'warn' others abvout it, as well.

This isn't about me, it's a general concern about griefers, which got gradually spoke about and explained as the topic went, flaws are weaknesses in a system, it's in human nature to exploit flaws, those videos are adorable examples of flaws exploits, which led to wonder if a suggestion of offering the option to not force PKing would be viable, it's not a sickness or a syndrome or a mentality deficiency, it's common sense to talk about it.

If it's any help, the informations provided in the thread were very informative, a lot of stuff that i didn't know, and can be persuasive enough to see how it goes after closed beta.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3574

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/28/12 12:47:44 PM#53
Originally posted by Uzik
[mod edit]

Yes there certainly are. The market will determine the fate of this game.  If there are enough people playing it, it will survive. Other wise, it will go the same way that Shadowbane did. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/28/12 1:14:37 PM#54
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
So why not go to the extreme since this is an extreme game--ganking a player under your level, or maybe under some level range, will result in your character not being able to be revived (0% chance) if you die while red. See? Easy peasy.

Easy peasy because you could not have spent more than 10 seconds coming up with that gem. That horribly, horribly flawed gem.

 

It's a gem, though.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  cyrex6

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/08
Posts: 9

11/29/12 3:38:27 AM#55
Originally posted by Drakaden

So i got this concern, and i'm sure i'm not alone to think so, this game isn't fair in any way in a PvP environment, it's level, gear and class skills based, that's worse than a paper rock scissors pvp system, why?

Because it means you can be bullied, very, very easily, PKers get very high lvl, gain awesome gear, adjust their skills for PKing mainly, then they go in low level dungeons, where players cannot fight back whatsoever due to the heavy gear defenses/offensives stacked against them, you see where i'm getting at? It's terrible!

I was fine with the perma death system in a PvE environment, but the PK is too much of a concern for me.

I havent played the game yet so i dunno if this works this ways, but if anything you can take it as a sort of dynamic event, and since you're aware of the problem you could take precautions and prepare something to run away fast. If they designed the pk system the way it is i dont think they would leave such a matter as is. But, again, pure speculation

  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

11/30/12 7:16:24 AM#56
I watched those clips and i have to say game mechanics are terri le, anything that supports a perso with a few accounrs camping out in a dungeon specifically to farm lower level players for their loot is a dead game before it even starts. my endorsement is that this game is a fail of a gank fest and will not survive.
  User Deleted
12/01/12 11:20:41 AM#57
Originally posted by Adamai
... my endorsement is that this game is a fail of a gank fest and will not survive.

brand new definition of "permadeath"? :D

  dotdotdash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 350

12/01/12 11:45:44 AM#58
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
So why not go to the extreme since this is an extreme game--ganking a player under your level, or maybe under some level range, will result in your character not being able to be revived (0% chance) if you die while red. See? Easy peasy.

That's a disproportionately harsh penalty for a game play mechanic that is encouraged and catered for. It's nonsensiscal to assume that just because you dislike a particular style of game play, others should be punished for playing that way.

The point is this: the game offers CHALLENGE in the form of hard monster encounters, puzzles, mazes, and... yes, you guessed it... other players. You're not meant to go in game and have a static "run through the PvE treadmill" experience. It's very much like Dark Souls in that regard. This isn't supposed to be a PvE treadmill in the same way WoW is a PvE treadmill. You're not supposed to get off lightly. Every decision you make should be informed, because every decision you make can potentially result in a HUGE cost should you mess up. That's part and parcel of the appeal.

If a player chooses to go for the PvP aspects of the game, they are opening themselves up to a load of restrictions PvE players don't have to suffer. They are limited in which vendors they can go to, they are fair game for PvE players to take down (as well as fair game for other PvP players), they can't risk the PvE content (see previous point) in the same way PvE players can, etc etc; they near-exclusivesly get their loot from killing other players.

So let's look at this:

PvP players can kill PvE players. They can "get the jump" on them in certain situations. So how do you deal with that? Firstly, you don't blindly run at every mob you encounter, and if you pull... don't default to attacking. Check around the area and make sure there are no untoward players hanging around waiting for the chance to gank you. Once you're sure it is clear, take on the encounter. If you die, at least you did everything in your power to secure yourself.

PvP players can group-gank solo players, but PvE players can group up to avoid group ganking. You have to consider that in order to achieve ganking, PvP players have to form a group. Once they do, they're generally having to share loot. Grouping is rewarding in so much as they will pick off any stragglers with ease, but the price they pay is that each member of the group gets less loot. If you are solo and you get ganked, you were playing against the odds anyway. You can avoid being ganked by... being in a group of your own ;D GvG fights aren't going to be as cut and dry as PvPers would like them (considering the aims of PvP in WO), and they will either run, or stay and fight a long grueling battle. And if you die... at least you put the effort in ;)

This point about PvPers running naked, and moving gear to a mule to transfer to town, is nonsensical. PvEers can do this as well. What you're complaining about here is people playing intelligently, rather than any inherent imbalance in the system. If a PvPer attacks you with little to no gear on, and you have a fairly nice set of items... the first hit they MAY OR MAY NOT get on you isn't going to do them much good ;)

The problem with PKing isn't the PKing itself. It's the ignorance that surrounds the systems in place. PvEers don't understand the price PvPers are paying to be able to PK, and so they just assume that they are having their cake and eating it. They're not, and people should work to be more informed about game play systems before they complain about them.

And if the game is too hard... go and play another game that isn't too hard. I'm fed up of this, "I don't like how the game is so it should change for me," ideal that exists in the MMO fanbase. It doesn't really exist anywhere else in gaming. If you don't like CoD, you play another FPS; you don't whine about it until they change it in the way that YOU want (and if you do, they just ignore you).

The sentiment I'm getting out of the beta right now is this: PKing is great fun during testing as there really isn't a long term price to pay for the actions commited. If you die, the amount of effort you've put it is negligible and easily dismissed. However... when the game goes live, PKing is going to become a rather stressful affair. PvEers can run around hundreds of other players at any given time, and only a small percent of them will ever pose a risk. PvPers won't have that luxury, with other PvPers AND PvEers all posing an equal and significant risk to their safety.

The way I see it, if you play intelligently - whether you choose to run solo or not - you can easily minimise and control the risk of death at the hands of another player. And that's what the game is all about: damage control and mitigation, thinking, planning, taking your time, strategising, and.... paying the price when you fail to do those things :D

  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

12/01/12 10:57:30 PM#59
Originally posted by Adamai
I watched those clips and i have to say game mechanics are terri le, anything that supports a perso with a few accounrs camping out in a dungeon specifically to farm lower level players for their loot is a dead game before it even starts. my endorsement is that this game is a fail of a gank fest and will not survive.

It's an action game so trying to PvP more than one account at once is kind of out of the question.

  Magicpsychoc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/29/12
Posts: 4

12/01/12 11:08:33 PM#60
Originally posted by Drakaden

So i got this concern, and i'm sure i'm not alone to think so, this game isn't fair in any way in a PvP environment, it's level, gear and class skills based, that's worse than a paper rock scissors pvp system, why?

Because it means you can be bullied, very, very easily, PKers get very high lvl, gain awesome gear, adjust their skills for PKing mainly, then they go in low level dungeons, where players cannot fight back whatsoever due to the heavy gear defenses/offensives stacked against them, you see where i'm getting at? It's terrible!

I was fine with the perma death system in a PvE environment, but the PK is too much of a concern for me.

I dont' get the concern?  This is the games model, if you like this model...great...good game for you.  That said, you obviously don't, so you should probably be looking at a different game.  This is obviously a hardcore game...something that the market needs tbh.

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