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Wizardry Online Forum » General Discussion » Why permadeath can't work.

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108 posts found
  User Deleted
11/03/12 2:31:28 PM#41
Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

The other issue with Permadeath in particular and Full looting in general is you can not make loot valuable as no one will wear the best stuff and when you remove incentives to wear good loot, you remove incentives to tackle any of the PvE elements of a game.

  corpusc

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CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
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11/03/12 2:33:55 PM#42
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Talemire

 

 it is not just that simple and if it was companies would do it as it would bring more players overall..  also it's just as bad trying to cater to the masses as it is trying to cater just ot a select few people..

 

on the one hand you say it wouldn't bring more players, then on the other hand say that they SHOULDN'T try to bring in more players.   

talk about armchair developer.  8)

 

my main point here tho on this set of sentences is that you seem to have missed the fact that companies DO do this ALL THE TIME already, EVEN when it doesn't get them much extra money (because they are flipping the switch from PVE to PVP, and in the current MMO paradigms, PVP has always been a small niche).  having PVE servers in PVP games would be another story.  it would MORE THAN double their total # of players.

and you can't use that lame "they would be doing it if it would work".

there's a million ways (other than PVE/PVP setup) that games like Mortal or Darkfall could be improved that would bring in a lot more players.  some of them fairlry easy (like a proper UI for Darkfall, and i do have personal experience making them) and yet these companies defy all conventional business logic/wisdom.  

 

even HUGE companies regularly go out of business because they don't make the right choices.  surely you've heard about all the recent game studio closures in the last few years.  not to mention all the ones that are scrambling to change their strategies to KEEP from going out of business.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 2:36:20 PM#43
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 

The other issue with Permadeath in particular and Full looting in general is you can not make loot valuable as no one will wear the best stuff and when you remove incentives to wear good loot, you remove incentives to tackle any of the PvE elements of a game.

they put in some interesting things for the full loot system though.. like for instance if you loot another player you are automatically flagged a criminal.. also you can allow a friend to loot your corpse for you without penatly and such.. but still goes along the risk vs reward type gameplay that these games are about

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Betakodo

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Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

11/03/12 2:36:29 PM#44
Why do people always come and beg for a game to be changed? Yeah, I want my game with a challenge please. If you want bland, there's WoW and dozens of F2P copies of it. I think people have a right to get pissed when you try and ruin the game, because you want ez mode, all you're doing is splitting the server population so people in the hardcore server don't have anyone to party with, and the EZ mode server is dull as oatmeal. The game ends up dying.
  Aerowyn

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Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 2:41:30 PM#45
Originally posted by corpusc
 

 

on the one hand you say it wouldn't bring more players, then on the other hand say that they SHOULDN'T try to bring in more players.   

talk about armchair developer.  8)

 

my main point here tho on this set of sentences is that you seem to have missed the fact that companies DO do this ALL THE TIME already, EVEN when it doesn't get them much extra money (because they are flipping the switch from PVE to PVP, and in the current MMO paradigms, PVP has always been a small niche).  having PVE servers in PVP games would be another story.  it would MORE THAN double their total # of players.

and you can't use that lame "they would be doing it if it would work".

there's a million ways (other than PVE/PVP setup) that games like Mortal or Darkfall could be improved that would bring in a lot more players.  some of them fairlry easy (like a proper UI for Darkfall, and i do have personal experience making them) and yet these companies defy all conventional business logic/wisdom.  

 

even HUGE companies regularly go out of business because they don't make the right choices.  surely you've heard about all the recent game studio closures in the last few years.  not to mention all the ones that are scrambling to change their strategies to KEEP from going out of business.

sure is and there's a million reasons possibly those systems wouldn't work or why many wouldn't like them.. the whole point is when you try to cater to people you get lost in what do people want and then you figure out no one knows what they want and that's the whole damn problem so in the end a developer should make the game they feel people will love.. will it work all the time? of course not but not any more or less than if you spend all your time worrying about just pleasing group x or group y

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  corpusc

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CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
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11/03/12 2:42:41 PM#46
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc
 

 

wrong.

i'm an actual game developer.

i talk about actual mechanics, and actual play experiences.  not just theories about designs like you are doing.  

YOU are the armchair developer, thinking that just because you can grasp certain concepts that it actually dictates reality.

 

nope.  HUMANS FAIL at their intentions.  ALL THE TIME.

talk is cheap.  just like all your theorizing.  you can talk about concepts all day long, and this was designed for this, and that was designed for the other.

ALL THAT MATTERS at the end of the day is the REALITY of the game experience.  REGARDLESS of human design/intention.

i once created pong with barber poles in java.. think that qualifies me as a developer.. oh forgot i invented the swiffer as well.. true story.. what bothers me most is when developers cave and ruin their own games such as SWG and so many others...

 

i suppose that makes you a bit more enlightened than your average poster who has never made the most basic of introductory games.   at least on the coding side of things.  8)

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

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Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1390

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/03/12 3:03:32 PM#47
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc
 

 

on the one hand you say it wouldn't bring more players, then on the other hand say that they SHOULDN'T try to bring in more players.   

talk about armchair developer.  8)

 

my main point here tho on this set of sentences is that you seem to have missed the fact that companies DO do this ALL THE TIME already, EVEN when it doesn't get them much extra money (because they are flipping the switch from PVE to PVP, and in the current MMO paradigms, PVP has always been a small niche).  having PVE servers in PVP games would be another story.  it would MORE THAN double their total # of players.

and you can't use that lame "they would be doing it if it would work".

there's a million ways (other than PVE/PVP setup) that games like Mortal or Darkfall could be improved that would bring in a lot more players.  some of them fairlry easy (like a proper UI for Darkfall, and i do have personal experience making them) and yet these companies defy all conventional business logic/wisdom.  

 

even HUGE companies regularly go out of business because they don't make the right choices.  surely you've heard about all the recent game studio closures in the last few years.  not to mention all the ones that are scrambling to change their strategies to KEEP from going out of business.

sure is and there's a million reasons possibly those systems wouldn't work or why many wouldn't like them.. the whole point is when you try to cater to people you get lost in what do people want and then you figure out no one knows what they want and that's the whole damn problem so in the end a developer should make the game they feel people will love.. will it work all the time? of course not but not any more or less than if you spend all your time worrying about just pleasing group x or group y

 

having an interface thats not the worse UI abomination that ever existed, would be a clear win for Darkfall.  8)  there are other such safe changes that could be made as well.

my whole point is that they don't HAVE to try to cater to audiences that fit outside of their design intentions.  they don't have to redesign or rebalance the game.  they can simply give players the OPTION of playing their game.  

using Darkfall as an example again.... playing a FFA PVP game is simply NOT an option for the vast majority of MMO players.  action mechanics is clearly something a lot of players want, what with seemingly most of the MMOs on the horizon going in that direction.   and even many of the people on these boards have been clamouring for such for many years.  Darkfall has had that for 3 years now, and other unique features that a lot of people could appreciate.  but playing Darkfall  is just out of the question for most.   even in the current reality of the game with population being so low, and most areas being so safe.....the very concept of non-consensual PVP is an immediate dealbreaker for most.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1390

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/03/12 3:09:38 PM#48

also, SWG is nothing like what's being discussed.  they did not just do a simple turning on or off of PVP/permadeath/whatever on a seperate server.

something that is completely an opt-in choice.

 

they actually DID put a lot of work into fundamentally changing the game.  GLOBALLY.  on ALL servers.  no choice.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 3:13:00 PM#49
Originally posted by corpusc
 

 

having an interface thats not the worse UI abomination that ever existed, would be a clear win for Darkfall.  8)  there are other such safe changes that could be made as well.

my whole point is that they don't HAVE to try to cater to audiences that fit outside of their design intentions.  they don't have to redesign or rebalance the game.  they can simply give players the OPTION of playing their game.  

using Darkfall as an example again.... playing a FFA PVP game is simply NOT an option for the vast majority of MMO players.  action mechanics is clearly something a lot of players want, what with seemingly most of the MMOs on the horizon going in that direction.   and even many of the people on these boards have been clamouring for such for many years.  Darkfall has had that for 3 years now, and other unique features that a lot of people could appreciate.  but playing Darkfall  is just out of the question for most.   even in the current reality of the game with population being so low, and most areas being so safe.....the very concept of non-consensual PVP is an immediate dealbreaker for most.

the question is why should a developer need to give all options for all types of people? there are hundreds of non permadeath MMOs out there.. if a developer wants to be unique and create something differn't i don't think they should be held back by worrying about who they might alienate if they don't include x feature.. a lot of these are from small developers and I'm sure not a whoe lot of resources at their disposal at all.. and again you make it sound like it's as easy as darkfall making a PVE server and it really isn't just that easy..

say a game is built around mana all the skills all the gear all the npcs everything that makes the game what it is, is built around this concept.. then you just throw up a server do nothing put turn off mana altogether it would ruin the game.. you would have balance issues out the wazoo you would take away what makes the game what it's supposed to be.. so now with your small team of developers you have another horde of angry players you need to deal with and cater to.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1390

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/03/12 3:38:57 PM#50
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc
 

 

having an interface thats not the worse UI abomination that ever existed, would be a clear win for Darkfall.  8)  there are other such safe changes that could be made as well.

my whole point is that they don't HAVE to try to cater to audiences that fit outside of their design intentions.  they don't have to redesign or rebalance the game.  they can simply give players the OPTION of playing their game.  

using Darkfall as an example again.... playing a FFA PVP game is simply NOT an option for the vast majority of MMO players.  action mechanics is clearly something a lot of players want, what with seemingly most of the MMOs on the horizon going in that direction.   and even many of the people on these boards have been clamouring for such for many years.  Darkfall has had that for 3 years now, and other unique features that a lot of people could appreciate.  but playing Darkfall  is just out of the question for most.   even in the current reality of the game with population being so low, and most areas being so safe.....the very concept of non-consensual PVP is an immediate dealbreaker for most.

the question is why should a developer need to give all options for all types of people? there are hundreds of non permadeath MMOs out there.. if a developer wants to be unique and create something differn't i don't think they should be held back by worrying about who they might alienate if they don't include x feature.. a lot of these are from small developers and I'm sure not a whoe lot of resources at their disposal at all.. and again you make it sound like it's as easy as darkfall making a PVE server and it really isn't just that easy..

say a game is built around mana all the skills all the gear all the npcs everything that makes the game what it is, is built around this concept.. then you just throw up a server do nothing put turn off mana altogether it would ruin the game.. you would have balance issues out the wazoo you would take away what makes the game what it's supposed to be.. so now with your small team of developers you have another horde of angry players you need to deal with and cater to.

 

after your example of turning off mana in a game thats built around mana, i should really just stop responding.  8)  really, if you can't see a difference between that an turning off PVP..............

 

.... but against my better judgement....

who's talking about giving "all options" for all types of people?  we're talking about ONE very crucial dealbreaking option.

for Wizardry?   it doesn't much matter.  i don't see anything really unique that it offers OTHER than permadeath, but games like Mortal, Xsyon, Darkfall, Salem & others have significant unique features that can't be had elsewhere currently.

once you get past getting tripped up on the fact that its easy to do, and that NO COMPROMISE to the vision of the game is necessary (unless you consider the extra costs of running another server) the question of why should be obvious. 

 

you're so lost in concepts tho that you disregard reality cuz it doesn't fit in with your view.

how am i playing solo PVE in Darkfall and enjoying myself?  why isn't the universe impoding because i'm having an experience that the game "wasn't designed for"?   

the game does NOT fall apart and disintegrate because there are no players killing me and taking all my stuff.   

Aventurine DID NOT have to compromise or redesign the game specifically taylor made for me.  

those are armchair philosophies that matter not to the real world.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1390

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/03/12 3:45:15 PM#51

and i'd really like to hear of the complications involved in turning off PVP.

does your coding experience give you some technical insight as to why that is so difficult?

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 4:33:05 PM#52
Originally posted by corpusc

and i'd really like to hear of the complications involved in turning off PVP.

does your coding experience give you some technical insight as to why that is so difficult?

already explained numerous times.. you design a game with something in mind.. now you completely change what makes that game and now your are stuck supporting, adding, dealing with constant whiney customers for this.. If you design many systems like territory control and such specifically for PVP then they are missing in a PVE server the design of the maps and game just don't work and are pointless.. you design equipment easier to get as you know people will need easier ways to get equip due to the PVP rules and now the PVE customer base bitches equip is to easy to obtain among other things.. just to many variables you need ot worry about and just more and more headaches to deal with.. if I was a developer I would stick to my goal and vision of what sort of game I'm trying to create

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  3-4thElf

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Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

11/03/12 4:36:11 PM#53

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

a yo ho ho

  Yamota

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Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6719

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

11/03/12 4:38:14 PM#54
Originally posted by neosapience

...
I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

I agree. Things should not be black or white, either or. Absolutes is almost always a bad thing.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6719

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

11/03/12 4:39:05 PM#55
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

Right because all gamers want perma-death. Maybe no lifers who live in their mommies basement, but not normal gamers.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 4:41:25 PM#56
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

Right because all gamers want perma-death. Maybe no lifers who live in their mommies basement, but not normal gamers.

think a lot of people see perma-death and they assume once you die you have no chance to come back or all your progress is gone.. that's not the case with this game at all though...

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Robokapp

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Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4975

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

11/03/12 4:42:18 PM#57
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

Right because all gamers want perma-death. Maybe no lifers who live in their mommies basement, but not normal gamers.

no lifers who have no xpenses like rent an utilities are quite tappable consumers since they actually keep their money.

 

I hav a full-time job paying not super-great, a little below double minimum wage. I live at home. payed my student loans into one single big payment. debt free, now I'm stockpiling money. It's amazing how much goes right into pocket when you dont pay rent.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6719

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

11/03/12 4:45:09 PM#58
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

Right because all gamers want perma-death. Maybe no lifers who live in their mommies basement, but not normal gamers.

no lifers who have no xpenses like rent an utilities are quite tappable consumers since they actually keep their money.

Yeah but they are also, thankfully, a tiny minority. The time when most gamers were like that is over, gaming is mainstream now and the average MMO gamer is 25+ years old, has job and many have families.

  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

11/03/12 4:48:08 PM#59
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

It'll work for real pvp fans.

It'll basiclly be the arcade era all over again. Oh you don't have a coin to spend to continue? Oh well start all over again and enjoy yourself.

Do you know how unforgiving Wizardry the single-player game was in this aspect? And how beloved the series was despite these carebear cries?

It won't get 10 million players.. Probably.

But it'll be a game for gamers.

Right because all gamers want perma-death. Maybe no lifers who live in their mommies basement, but not normal gamers.

Gamers want perma death. 

The people who live a vicarious life showing off their phatlewts are the basement dwellers my friend.

Think about it.

a yo ho ho

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

11/03/12 4:49:09 PM#60

permadeath good or not

one thing is sure

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

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