Originally posted by Lambon23

The funniest part of all this?

The consumers.

They will still buy the items. We are a minority that cannot change the industry. The masses, idiots, ignorant scum; that populates the rest of this planet, they are the reason why these cash shops exists.

Blizzard could completely remove the rmah and people would still be spending their mothers welfare check on ist runes.

Back in the late 90s and early 2000 era the hardcore players cheated the most. The 'true' elite did everything they could to get an edge. The 'elite players' are the reason the P2W model has become what it is. Eventually this spilled into the ignorant masses(as you put it) with the thought that real money could gain the power they needed in online gaming.

The real players struggled to compete with the cheaters, slowly and surely more and more legitimate upstanding players at one point or time tried their hand at outside the rules play. Most of the time this was RMT or Account sharing.

Blame the 'true' players for the RMT problem not the 'ignorant masses'. The lesser players will always follow the role of the dominant ones.

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

Nop. Wow for example isn't pay to win: items are soulbound and cannot be gotten by currency. Instead, items can only be gotten by actually being a top arena/PvP player, or by being in a guild and raid capable of clearing the hardest content. The only circumvence would be to pay someone else (a top PvP/Gladiator player for example) to play your account and get that best PvP gear. For the most part, though, i do agree: every MMO is indeed pay to win then, and even WoW to some extent aswell. You indeed can't really avoid this.

Also about the legal debate. A few years ago i actually called Blizzard about this: i asked them: is it illegal to sell gold on my WoW account. Their answer?

NO. It is not illegal. She told me: you cannot be arrested. You can, however, have your account closed by Blizzard, because it is indeed against their rules. Unless some law has passed since, this should still be the same.

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

I agree. In principle there is no difference. But a CS game that sells store exclusive items is worse. Because the only way to get those items will be to buy them from the CS.

There is P2W and there is worse P2W... And if there is grind and you need to buy CS-items to avoid the grind the core game design will be terrible. The whole game will be boring. Everything in game will be designed to make you want to use the CS.

In my opinion a RMAH is less offensive than a CS.

Originally posted by Mccormick213

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

Also about the legal debate. A few years ago i actually called Blizzard about this: i asked them: is it illegal to sell gold on my WoW account. Their answer?

 

NO. It is not illegal. She told me: you cannot be arrested. You can, however, have your account closed by Blizzard, because it is indeed against their rules. Unless some law has passed since, this should still be the same.

Actually it is well within their rights to take you to court if they wanted. They never will but the fact is, they can and will win if they were to.

So while not illegal by law yet, you can be sued. It just won't happen, to much time involved. Instead they'll just hit the red button on your account.

So you're right it isn't illegal but out of game consequences are a possibilty however unlikely they are. It is just easier to say it is illegal than you will receive corrective action.

Man it seems like Between this game and TERA i will be enjoying the shit out of both of them while morons are still arguing on the forums. Ah well........

Originally posted by TheDubanat0r

Man it seems like Between this game and TERA i will be enjoying the shit out of both of them while morons are still arguing on the forums. Ah well........

Thank you for this worthwhile, deeply informative post on the subject of this thread. I'm so glad that finally a highly intellectual person like yourself found the time to educate us "morons" on this subject.

Thanks once again!

If I play D3 I won't use the AH for anything anyway. They are just testing it for Titan anyway.

Originally posted by Thorbrand

If I play D3 I won't use the AH for anything anyway. They are just testing it for Titan anyway.

I really don't think they are just testing it for Titan... Titan is going to be a great game I believe but the Diablo series is very well liked and very profitable for Blizzard. The RMAH (I am assuming thats what you are referring to) is going to make them a lot more money then what they would have with out it and I'm sure they have done plenty of testing and planning before throwing it out there. If you aren't referring to the RMAH then I am confused as to why you wouldn't use the AH.

It is P2W. How anyone can argue that is beyond me. You can pay extra monnies and get better gear to have a better character.

However, it is quite optional. You could, like me, never even look at the RMAH. I plan to do with D3 the same thing I did with D2: grind for my gear...........alone.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

It is P2W. How anyone can argue that is beyond me. You can pay extra monnies and get better gear to have a better character.

 

However, it is quite optional. You could, like me, never even look at the RMAH. I plan to do with D3 the same thing I did with D2: grind for my gear...........alone.

Actually, it's pretty easy to argue about it. In fact, I don't agree with your definition of pay-to-win and for my argumention you can look a few posts up 

I'm only using the (RM)AH for selling items, if I find anything that's worth a dime that is. I'm curious how it will work out in the end.

Thorbrand: I understand your reasoning, but if you're interested in Titan, isn't it better to use the (RM)AH now? I mean, if you're sure that the (RM)AH will be implemented in Titan (a very real chance I might add), then won't you rather have that they work out the kinks now with the (RM)AH, so that Titan gets a (RM)AH without the initial bugs/exploits?

Illegal means criminally prosecutable.  Anyone can sue anyone for anything.  They may win, they may lose, it doesn't make something legal or illegal.  It's fairly thin ice to say that a win over a contract dispute equates to proof that something wasn't legal.  And even given that, the contracts used for interactive entertainment are some of the least successful in courts of any type.

Who cares if someone calls it P2W?

You can use your real life money to buy better gear. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, don't buy the game.

Originally posted by colddog04

Who cares if someone calls it P2W?

 

You can use your real life money to buy better gear. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, don't buy the game.

It is P2W.

It is a way for Blizzard to cash in on gold sellers that make virtually every game P2W.

It is not going to stop botting, multiboxing, or cheating of any way shape or form.

If you don't like it, then you have a few choices. Don't buy it.  Or don't take part in multiplayer. Or tell yourself it's not P2W and argue with this post.  You could also rant and rave about P2W and how it's the devil, while people try to justify to you what they think is actually a pretty fair system.

As for the legal end of things. Multibillion dollar companies don't sue people over menial junk like gold selling because it would end up creating a rule about it. They don't want a ruling on it because it might not go in their favor. So you agree to a contract which has very little actual legal power since there is no witness, and no actual proof that you were the one agreeing to the contract.  If you are found to be in violation of said contract, they have the right, no matter who agreed to the terms, to terminate contract and therefore remove product function.

Look at it in this light.  Many games will have ban campaigns against botters, paying thousands if not millions in software to try and route out these abusers of the system, Yet you will continue to see the gold sellers advertising their wares in the game continuously. How much would it cost to have 3 people, getting paid modest salaries, constantly monitor the chat channels and instantly banning anyone that attempted to sell gold.

If they wanted to have a true solution, they would have a true solution. Don't fool yourself.

To me this game has always been about dungeon crawling and trading your stuff,trying to get better gear and get "wealthier" ingame. I hate the RMAH for this reason,because i really liked in D2 when i joined a trade game and got to actually meet people through trading and try to get the best deal possible.

But, it don't care anyway,as long as RMAH stays the hell out of hardcore.Hopefully trading will be half my playtime in D3 at some point.

Originally posted by kompleksaki

To me this game has always been about dungeon crawling and trading your stuff,trying to get better gear and get "wealthier" ingame. I hate the RMAH for this reason,because i really liked in D2 when i joined a trade game and got to actually meet people through trading and try to get the best deal possible.

But, it don't care anyway,as long as RMAH stays the hell out of hardcore.Hopefully trading will be half my playtime in D3 at some point.

Real trading was in the chat channel, very rarely did ingame trade games go anywhere aside from someone getting scammed.  Either way the whole buying gear with real money was very large in D2.. lol.

Originally posted by colddog04

Who cares if someone calls it P2W?

 

You can use your real life money to buy better gear. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, don't buy the game.

Exactly.

And the more important point is that i can SELL and make money. I don't have to buy if i don't want to, and i can make some money (either to put back into the game, or fund my other hobbies).

I don't see a downside.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by colddog04

Who cares if someone calls it P2W?

 

You can use your real life money to buy better gear. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, don't buy the game.

Exactly.

And the more important point is that i can SELL and make money. I don't have to buy if i don't want to, and i can make some money (either to put back into the game, or fund my other hobbies).

I don't see a downside.

Sell-to-win?

Originally posted by MikkelB

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by colddog04

Who cares if someone calls it P2W?

 

You can use your real life money to buy better gear. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, don't buy the game.

Exactly.

And the more important point is that i can SELL and make money. I don't have to buy if i don't want to, and i can make some money (either to put back into the game, or fund my other hobbies).

I don't see a downside.

Sell-to-win?

Sell-to-profit .. and i am totally for it.

I can, DIablo 2 was free online play on bnet, no excuse why there is a rmah for diablo 3. SC2 is also free to play on Bnet. I also don't like the fact if you live in canada you bascally get screwed over since you have no way to get yer cash out of the rmtah from what I heard.

The RMAH is like the gems that give stats in diablo 3: just a excuse for blizzard to cash farm the game. The ONLY reason they remvoed stat points on level up was so they could make gems they KNOW will sell on the RMTAH. There is no other reason for it but that. Mind you I think blizzard is a garbage company up there with EA now due to what they did to the mmorpg genre, and what diablo 3 will probally do to the non-mmo genre. Shitty games that are made with "features" solely for the company to cash farm the hell out of the game.

So lets see Diablo3 is bascally lower than diablo 1 in terms of char devolopment (as in char cuztomzation etc), gameplay is below diablo 2, Features were removed so that they can be sold in a rmtah (Stat points). You can bet the stat gems are going to have a very small drop rate for the decent ones just so your forced to use the rmtah to get them. Personally? I hope one of the hacking groups hacks the hell out of the d3 bnet servers and dupes a ton of items, destroying the rmtah's purpose. Sorry but I can't agree with a RMTAH in any game period,. I also hate blizzard fo rnot allowing offline play/lan play with locally stored characters that cannot go on bnet with them. Its gonna make diablo 3 die a very fast death, People still play diablo 2 today.. why? due to the mods. There are a ton of nice mods, I wish blizzard wouldn't be so anal about forcing people to have to be online to play. No reason why there can't be a offline/lan multiplayer mode, its the same game. Well I guess they wanan force everyone online so there is a higher chance of rmtah use. Meh Imma prob just pirate d3, I am sure they will crack it, they did it for the beta so you can play it offline, because I won't buy into blizzards bullshit cash grabbing tactics. Besides even if I bought the game I only got 1 friend I know who is getting it.

Originally posted by Siveria

I can, DIablo 2 was free online play on bnet, no excuse why there is a rmah for diablo 3. SC2 is also free to play on Bnet. I also don't like the fact if you live in canada you bascally get screwed over since you have no way to get yer cash out of the rmtah from what I heard.

 

The RMAH is like the gems that give stats in diablo 3: just a excuse for blizzard to cash farm the game. The ONLY reason they remvoed stat points on level up was so they could make gems they KNOW will sell on the RMTAH. There is no other reason for it but that. Mind you I think blizzard is a garbage company up there with EA now due to what they did to the mmorpg genre, and what diablo 3 will probally do to the non-mmo genre. Shitty games that are made with "features" solely for the company to cash farm the hell out of the game.

So lets see Diablo3 is bascally lower than diablo 1 in terms of char devolopment (as in char cuztomzation etc), gameplay is below diablo 2, Features were removed so that they can be sold in a rmtah (Stat points). You can bet the stat gems are going to have a very small drop rate for the decent ones just so your forced to use the rmtah to get them. Personally? I hope one of the hacking groups hacks the hell out of the d3 bnet servers and dupes a ton of items, destroying the rmtah's purpose. Sorry but I can't agree with a RMTAH in any game period,. I also hate blizzard fo rnot allowing offline play/lan play with locally stored characters that cannot go on bnet with them. Its gonna make diablo 3 die a very fast death, People still play diablo 2 today.. why? due to the mods. There are a ton of nice mods, I wish blizzard wouldn't be so anal about forcing people to have to be online to play. No reason why there can't be a offline/lan multiplayer mode, its the same game. Well I guess they wanan force everyone online so there is a higher chance of rmtah use. Meh Imma prob just pirate d3, I am sure they will crack it, they did it for the beta so you can play it offline, because I won't buy into blizzards bullshit cash grabbing tactics. Besides even if I bought the game I only got 1 friend I know who is getting it.

Canada can use the RMAH, you have paypal aswell. The currency may not be listed but you can cash out as USD and convert thru paypal, it isn't an issue.

You're whole removing stats to inflate their sales on the RMAH is a bit ridiculous but conspiracy theorys sell great. Also it doesn't say much about you as a person who is ok with destroying a game and wanting to play illegally which will never happen.

A bit to much anger in your post.