If you're a seller, you can't argue against it. You don't have the rights to selling anything using Blizzard resources without their consent. This includes third party, sorry it is illegal and against their terms. You have one legitimate option and that is to use the RMAH if you wish to sell, you didn't have the right before so why is this an argument now?

As a buyer, you can't argue against it. Blizzard does not allow third party sellers, it is an illegal and it is people profiting off the work of a companies effort without paying dues. As a buyer you get around fees, rules and terms thus becoming a cheater. Now you have an option to buy legally without getting scammed. It may cost more, but it isn't against the rules and its safe.

As for everyone else who want to argue, you have two options. If you don't like it but want to play the game then play the game if you can ignore the RMAH.

If you can't get past the RMAH then don't buy the game.

It is very simple, cut and dry.. you have a choice. Nothing is going to change at this point.

grumble?

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

Cool thx for that.

You do realize there's a difference between violating a corporation's terms of service and illegal, right? Actiblizz is not a governmental body. It doesn't become illegal until a Government passes a law.

i will be happy if the RMAH doesn't shut down my chat like it does in D2.

i doubt it will so i'll be happy! yay.

No you signed a contract and they can sue you for endangerment to outside 5th degree party monuments.

I agree, but I understand why there is so much room for debate amongst gamers.  It has become very clear that Blizzard has thought this through.

Cell Phone with SMS and mainly contract phones required to cash out:  Adds an enforcement of tying something real to the account, something to make users accountable which alone will go a very long way in cutting out scamming.

$250 limit:  Lets them control the market where the best of the best items will go for $250 and then everything will scale down.  Then they take a fixed cut on a sale of an item, or a percent of commodity like gold which keeps things in check.

15% Blizz cut on cashing out:  The biggets topic for debate, but what people fail to realize is this is a small percent compared to almost every service out there and Blizzard itself is generating your items.  This could drive up prices, but see previous point on the limit.

Every aspect plays into a series of checks and balances and I can see it being a very controlled economic environment.  It really is a cool system, and imo is a brilliant idea.

There is no RMAH in hard core so players can avoid it there.  They can simply use the GAH if they wish.  It is wise to sell on the RMAH but keep the money with Blizzard and not cash out.  Put it towards other games, products, items on the RMAH, etc.

I plan to use it to acquire items necessary for the class I am playing.  If I get a legendary Witch Doctor drop but play a Demon Hunter and the best way to trade that item in for a Demon Hunter equivelant is the RMAH I will use it.  If it is the GAH I will use that. 

People should not expect ot make a living off of this imo.

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

What about the choice of opting out of the online component?

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

exactly, it is unreasonable to fault D3 for having the same feature as every one of its peers.

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

Yes but this one is legally p2w, it's actually ecouraged unlike other MMOs where you would have to illegally use a third party. Your statement is quite ridiculous really, if your not a troll you must be ignorant.

Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

 

exactly, it is unreasonable to fault D3 for having the same feature as every one of its peers.

Ok name those "peers". Don't get me wrong I love the game and will be playing on May 15 but the fact is that it is p2w.

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

You are missing the bit that it has to be Blizzard that should provide those items for cash, in case of pay-to-win. Now it's a player that finds an item and sells it through the RMAH. There is absolutly nothing unfair about this. Not even pay-to-win, because if the player kept the item for himself, he could have used it to stomp people's faces in PvP for example.

It's the main reason why the whole RMAH debacle leaves me cold. It's just the regular old itemtrading, bit more streamlined and with the option to legally buy these items with cash. I don't plan to make use of it, perhaps selling off loot that I can't use anyway.

Originally posted by MikkelB

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

You are missing the bit that it has to be Blizzard that should provide those items for cash, in case of pay-to-win. Now it's a player that finds an item and sells it through the RMAH. There is absolutly nothing unfair about this. Not even pay-to-win, because if the player kept the item for himself, he could have used it to stomp people's faces in PvP for example.

It's the main reason why the whole RMAH debacle leaves me cold. It's just the regular old itemtrading, bit more streamlined and with the option to legally buy these items with cash. I don't plan to make use of it, perhaps selling off loot that I can't use anyway.

I disagree with you. The fact is the more money you spend the stronger you are going to be. It really is as simple as that to me. I don't mind the RMAH, I might even end up using it, I just don't see that whether Blizzard supplies the item or another play supplies the item changes the fact that it is p2w. Sure the items are in game anyway but the issue is now one person can easily obtain them all from spending cash.

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

Yes but this one is legally p2w, it's actually ecouraged unlike other MMOs where you would have to illegally use a third party. Your statement is quite ridiculous really, if your not a troll you must be ignorant.

I guess I am ignorant.  RMT and 3rd party sellers exist in every game out there, they ruin the economy, they support some of the worst things in the world, and are akin to drug cartels in many ways.  Blizzard has put this in the players hands to fix this, and given average players a real chance to control the economy.  P2W is usually associated with companies selling items that are generated upon direct purchase from the company that give an advantage over someone who does not purchase said items.  This is players selling their items to other players whether gold or cash.

If it exists in every game, but exists because of 3rd parties who are a plague on every one of these games destroying economies, supporting child labor, and horrible practices then how would you fix this? 

I do not think this is more P2W compared to any MMO or online game out there.  It is less so because it is accessible to everyone.  You can farm gold, sell it on the RMAH, then use your balance to buy from the RMAH without ever putting real cash in, but it is 100% accessible to all not just those cheaters willing to illegally abuse 3rd party systems.

I think people that throw around P2W with this game like it is some huge negative while giving other MMO's a pass where 3rd party RMT P2W is rampant are the ignorant ones.

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

 

exactly, it is unreasonable to fault D3 for having the same feature as every one of its peers.

Ok name those "peers". Don't get me wrong I love the game and will be playing on May 15 but the fact is that it is p2w.

i never said it was or was not p2w.  I was arguing under the assumption that pay to win is defined as above where "the more you spend the better you are."  assuming a rather loose definition of the word better i then use the word "peer."  Knowing full well that i'm not going to only compare diablo 3 with other dungeon crawler games i then choose to compare it to multiplayer online games commonly discussed on this site.  This is what i mean by "peer."

a short list of the ones i have played that would fall into the category "pay to win" as used in my previous post would be:

World of Warcraft

City of Heroes/Villains

Anarchy Online 

Star Wars Galaxies

Rift 

Age of Conan

Everquest 

i could elongate this list if you like.

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

Originally posted by MikkelB

Bit of a open door that you just kick in. More like a huge gate. I just want to add that the AH and RMAH aren't a pay-to-win option either. People still need to find items before they can sell them. That's hardly pay-to-win. Just my 2 cents.

 

The definition of pay to win is the more you spend the better you are, which is the case in D3. The fact that the item must be found first does not change this.

Then every MMO out there is pay to win.  Every.  Single.  One.

Yes but this one is legally p2w, it's actually ecouraged unlike other MMOs where you would have to illegally use a third party. Your statement is quite ridiculous really, if your not a troll you must be ignorant.

I guess I am ignorant.  RMT and 3rd party sellers exist in every game out there, they ruin the economy, they support some of the worst things in the world, and are akin to drug cartels in many ways.  Blizzard has put this in the players hands to fix this, and given average players a real chance to control the economy.  P2W is usually associated with companies selling items that are generated upon direct purchase from the company that give an advantage over someone who does not purchase said items.  This is players selling their items to other players whether gold or cash.

If it exists in every game, but exists because of 3rd parties who are a plague on every one of these games destroying economies, supporting child labor, and horrible practices then how would you fix this? 

I do not think this is more P2W compared to any MMO or online game out there.  It is less so because it is accessible to everyone.  You can farm gold, sell it on the RMAH, then use your balance to buy from the RMAH without ever putting real cash in, but it is 100% accessible to all not just those cheaters willing to illegally abuse 3rd party systems.

I think people that throw around P2W with this game like it is some huge negative while giving other MMO's a pass where 3rd party RMT P2W is rampant are the ignorant ones.

I don't mean to sound like I'm against the RMAH because I am not. I believe that it is a viable (not a great) solution to 3rd party gold sellers and am glad to see it implemented and curious to see how well it works out. I like to believe that most people who play MMOs don't use 3rd party gold sellers because of a fear of punishment (ban). The fact is D3 has a system that means the more money you spend the better items/more powerful you will be. Theres no getting around that if power increases with money spent then the game is p2w. I understand what you are saying about other MMOs and 3rd parties but disagree with your view.