Originally posted by syntax42

The biggest complaint I'm reading about the game is the skill system.  I don't see how the arguments about the skill system not being complex enough can hold any water.  Just looking at the Monk, you have 3 to 4 skills to choose from in each skill slot.  Each skill has five different possible runes that affect the power in significantly-different ways.  On top of that, you can choose three out of fourteen different passive skills.

 Just in case my math is wrong, someone can double-check it.

(4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (14 x 13 x 12) = 58.968 billion

Oh, and the Monk has the fewest choices of skills.

Hmm, I think you got that formula wrong.

The following is just based on what you wrote. I didn't play D3, so I can't be sure if your values are correct. ;)

- 3 to 4 skills

Ok, lets take the higher value : 4 skills

- Each skill has five different runes

So that makes 4 skills with 5 runes. That makes: 5^4 = 5 * 5 * 5 * 5

- On top of that you got 3 passive skills out of 14. Thats: 14! - (14-3)! = 14 * 13 * 12

All in all:

(5^4) * (14! - 11!) = 1.365.000

This is only true if you don't have actually more than 4 skills where you select your skills from. Or more than 5 runes to select from. Than it would be more.

Anyway, just bored at work, please continue your discussion.

Number of mathematical different builds is not the same as builds that really are different. For example a build that does +1% more damage than another build, but identical in other aspects, would be a mathematicaly different build but that does not make it truly different.

Example of this is Mortal Online where you can define an infinite number of different builds but only a very small fraction of those are viable and actually different from another.

I never had to use any s c cookie cutter builds when playing D2. There was a lot of strange and fun builds that was good enough to finish hell. At least if you had good enough gear to support them. There was no reason to min max or pressure to be as efficient as possible. Of course if that was your goal you would perhaps use one of the popular builds. But a lot of people played the game with friends for fun without any competition.

I believe people that used cookie cutter builds in D2 will continue doing that in D3. If they think being 10% less efficient is the end of the world they will not drop the cookie cutter habit. They will continue to min max and go to websites to find "the best build".

I doubt its true that most players used cookie cutter in D2. You dont know how many played solo or with a few friends just for fun. People that wanted to compete in some way(ladder PvP) certainly used cookie cutter builds. Of course people like that will be recognized and are more vocal. But are they really the majority? Or perhaps there is a majority that never visit forums and that never discuss the game at all. That just play. That dont think competition, min maxing or the best build is all that important. Or fun...

The min maxers will not think there are 60 billion build possibilitys. For them there will be a few builds for each class that number crunching elitists tell them is the best. I think no skill system can prevent that.

I like the flexibility of the new system. Often in D2 you'd have a build which seemed to work well until you got to hell difficulty, at which point you'd realize that it was completely worthless, like a fire sorceress. Back before the current version allowed for respeccing, you were pretty much screwed and had to start over, losing many hours worth of work (for lack of better term). Even with the current version allowing respecs, you'd still have to redo all your gear, which is more time lost/spent.

The new system allows quite a bit of flexibility, without the possibility of gimping yourself at later stages. Even if you do find a 'build' which doesn't work very well, you can simply zip back to town and change things up, or even change in the field!

I hated the idea of it at first, but once I actually got to play it, I realized that it really is superior to what we got in D2, as is the new way stats work, and other game functions.

Originally posted by Hurvart

I never had to use any s c cookie cutter builds when playing D2. There was a lot of strange and fun builds that was good enough to finish hell. At least if you had good enough gear to support them. There was no reason to min max or pressure to be as efficient as possible. Of course if that was your goal you would perhaps use one of the popular builds. But a lot of people played the game with friends for fun without any competition.

I believe people that used cookie cutter builds in D2 will continue doing that in D3. If they think being 10% less efficient is the end of the world they will not drop the cookie cutter habit. They will continue to min max and go to websites to find "the best build".

I doubt its true that most players used cookie cutter in D2. You dont know how many played solo or with a few friends just for fun. People that wanted to compete in some way(ladder PvP) certainly used cookie cutter builds. Of course people like that will be recognized and are more vocal. But are they really the majority? Or perhaps there is a majority that never visit forums and that never discuss the game at all. That just play. That dont think competition, min maxing or the best build is all that important. Or fun...

The min maxers will not think there are 60 billion build possibilitys. For them there will be a few builds for each class that number crunching elitists tell them is the best. I think no skill system can prevent that.

This, 100%.

Not only are cookie cutter builds inevitably going to happen (it always happens), I surmise that it will possibly be even worse due to how easy it is to switch everything out. I can already imagine a group of min/maxing barbs (for example) with nearly identical builds (whichever is the most efficient for the area they're killing mobs in). Then, as soon as they get close to a boss, it's time for everyone to go back to town and switch to whatever is optimum for boss killing. 

Without any kind of restriction on build swapping (having to be out of combat first isn't really a restriction...), I fear this will be a rampant occurrence in the game. D2 may have made it fairly difficult to respec, but I think it was a good compromise for giving players a chance to rectify mistakes, while not trivilizing the entire aspect of actually having a build.

Originally posted by IrishChai

Kinda confused how you agreed with him but somehow I agree with you and he obviously disagreed with me (as offensively childish as he could be), but I'll let you figure that one out since I have no interest in knowing what that idiot had to say. I'll admit you said it better than I did though. 

He is saying that different skills clearly favour different situations, and people will use them to that effect. Others will simply build to their overall playstyle, without really considering swapping out skills as per encounter.

I agree with both notions. I think the latter will be more numerous, and the former will be largely reserved for Hell and Inferno/Hardcore playthroughs. Once PvP is added... yeah... PvP will bring out the cookie cutter builds. It always does.

;)

Originally posted by alacres

This, 100%.

Not only are cookie cutter builds inevitably going to happen (it always happens), I surmise that it will possibly be even worse due to how easy it is to switch everything out. I can already imagine a group of min/maxing barbs (for example) with nearly identical builds (whichever is the most efficient for the area they're killing mobs in). Then, as soon as they get close to a boss, it's time for everyone to go back to town and switch to whatever is optimum for boss killing. 

Without any kind of restriction on build swapping (having to be out of combat first isn't really a restriction...), I fear this will be a rampant occurrence in the game. D2 may have made it fairly difficult to respec, but I think it was a good compromise for giving players a chance to rectify mistakes, while not trivilizing the entire aspect of actually having a build.

 

I don't think it matters at all.

At the end of the day you can CHOSE not to swap out your skills if you wish to restrict yourself in that regard, whereas others can chose to swap out as often and as flagrantly as they want. You can apply the same restrictions that Diablo 2 had to yourself and, if your friends are willing, the group of people you play with.

What other people are doing doesn't effect you, so why should you care? How other people play the game and how you play the game are two distinctly unrelated ideas in this regard.

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by alacres

This, 100%.

Not only are cookie cutter builds inevitably going to happen (it always happens), I surmise that it will possibly be even worse due to how easy it is to switch everything out. I can already imagine a group of min/maxing barbs (for example) with nearly identical builds (whichever is the most efficient for the area they're killing mobs in). Then, as soon as they get close to a boss, it's time for everyone to go back to town and switch to whatever is optimum for boss killing. 

Without any kind of restriction on build swapping (having to be out of combat first isn't really a restriction...), I fear this will be a rampant occurrence in the game. D2 may have made it fairly difficult to respec, but I think it was a good compromise for giving players a chance to rectify mistakes, while not trivilizing the entire aspect of actually having a build.

 

I don't think it matters at all.

At the end of the day you can CHOSE not to swap out your skills if you wish to restrict yourself in that regard, whereas others can chose to swap out as often and as flagrantly as they want. You can apply the same restrictions that Diablo 2 had to yourself and, if your friends are willing, the group of people you play with.

What other people are doing doesn't effect you, so why should you care? How other people play the game and how you play the game are two distinctly unrelated ideas in this regard.

I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly? 

But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.

Originally posted by alacres

I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly? 

But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.

I think you're taking it way too far personally :)

On normal and hell difficulty no one is going to care what abilities you are using so long as progress is being made. When and if you get to Nightmare and Inferno, or play hardcore, people are going to expect you to be using a build that works well. Why? Because their success, and their character's existence in hardcore, is dependent on you being able to perform.

If you go into Inferno using some random build that doesn't actually do anything - which, might I add, is not likely to happen in D3 due to the way the skills are built - then why should people tolerate that? I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure most other people intending to clear Nightmare and Inferno wouldn't.

In D2 on Hell you turned up in the right spec. If anyone got any idea that you WEREN'T in the right spec, you just got removed. You didn't have leverage at the top end, so I have no idea why you are claiming you did. The talent system - and the complexities involved with respecing - made it so that if you weren't in a spec that your group wanted, you were simply removed from the group. At the lower end, and just like in D3, any spec worked for anything.

It's no different to what happens in MMOs; turn up to an instance in the wrong spec, get told to respec or get removed.

The difference here is that there are MORE right specs to be used in various instances.

You don't have to believe me; you can just go and look at how the skills are built using the TCs on Diablo3.com.

All I get from you is that you want to be able to play how you want at all times, regardless of level of difficulty. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. In reality... that would result in a system where by EVERYONE may as well have 1 skill that they use from start to finish, without any chance to make any decisions at any point because they'd all be superfluous anyway.

I think it's definitely true that if you're using the open beta from this weekend to judge character and skill speccing, you probably didn't get exposed to enough that would make you believe there was any real variety available. Hell, that's how I feel about the beta product I played, but I also realize that the majority of my skills and runes were emptied and unavailable, so it's a bit unreasonable to make any form of rational judgement regarding their skill system until I play an open and complete product.

Unfortunately for Blizzard, character customization is the reason I play RPG's. I'm not going to spend sixty dollars just to make a judgement call on their mechanics. A part of me really wishes that the beta included more than it did as far as leveling content is concerned, because while it was fun in a fleeting, pointless kind of way (people who know me realize how quickly I was bored with the weekend beta), there wasn't enough available to make me really determine that their design was what I wanted in another Diablo game.

Originally posted by Anthur

Originally posted by syntax42

The biggest complaint I'm reading about the game is the skill system.  I don't see how the arguments about the skill system not being complex enough can hold any water.  Just looking at the Monk, you have 3 to 4 skills to choose from in each skill slot.  Each skill has five different possible runes that affect the power in significantly-different ways.  On top of that, you can choose three out of fourteen different passive skills.

 Just in case my math is wrong, someone can double-check it.

(4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (14 x 13 x 12) = 58.968 billion

Oh, and the Monk has the fewest choices of skills.

Hmm, I think you got that formula wrong.

The following is just based on what you wrote. I didn't play D3, so I can't be sure if your values are correct. ;)

- 3 to 4 skills

Ok, lets take the higher value : 4 skills

- Each skill has five different runes

So that makes 4 skills with 5 runes. That makes: 5^4 = 5 * 5 * 5 * 5

- On top of that you got 3 passive skills out of 14. Thats: 14! - (14-3)! = 14 * 13 * 12

All in all:

(5^4) * (14! - 11!) = 1.365.000

 

This is only true if you don't have actually more than 4 skills where you select your skills from. Or more than 5 runes to select from. Than it would be more.

Anyway, just bored at work, please continue your discussion.

 

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#aZXkSm!ahT!bYZYca

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor

Technically there are 6 skills. Left click, Right click and 1-4. Each with 5 runes or so.

Each class has 15 passives with the exception of the monk with 14 and the barbarian with 16. There are some really obvious non synergistic passives (example, Wizard has a all fire spells put an ignite dot on. If non of your other skills were fire this would do nothing) so if you want to calc it with less then 15 that is fine.

But the number you calc will be mostly irrelevent.

You can make some vastly different builds work such as melee wizard or melee Demon Hunter (rapid fire with a melee weapon is actually hilarious)

Skill tree systems generally have an illusion of choice. I cannot argue this will not have an illusion of choice but I can say that at the VERY worst it will be tied with the amount of choice in Diablo 2.

I like some of the choices such as for the Wizard mastery skill.  Explosive blast (aoe physical attack 20 sec cool), Mirror Illusions (defensive/utility skill, 15 second cooldown) and Archon (changes all your other skills and buffed for short duration, cool 120 seconds) all sound like they will feel very different.

I look forward to seeing wizards using any of these abilities and depending on circumstance they all seem awesome. Explosive blast would be handy if you were using a element specializing passive and needed a non elemental nuke to deal with some high resistance/immun monsters. Mirror Illusions, particularily with the rune options, seems very versitile. Archon really depends on numbers. It gives you good passive defense for those 15 seconds. I cannot tell off the top of my head which of those runes I would want on any of those skills. The teleport on archon looks nice as does slow time. As does arcane destruction.

The problem with diablo 2 was that skills were dependant on other skills. A Blizzard sorc had to spend 80 points to max out the blizzard damage....which did not leave enough in other trees to max a skill and thus it was a sub par build because it would only do good ice damage which is why the Meteo Orb sorc was THE sorc build. Orb did good damage, had good utility, and only had one other synergy skill after unlocking the prereqs.

Can anyone here tell me the optimal build for any character in diablo 3. I find the choice between diamond skin (straight up damage absorbtion versus slow time (small attack and MS slow and extremely anti ranged attacks) vs teleport (ability to get out of a dangerous area quickly) an extremely interesting decision. Please show me where I could make such an interesting decision in Diablo 2.

I would also like to add that playstyle effects how the builds will work. A kiter plays differently from a nuker. How do you manage your secondary resource(s)? Cooldowns? etc.

I am looking forward to seeing the skills play out in appropriate difficulty.

Originally posted by Aori

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by ArChWind

Some can't seem to understand that 99% of those builds are actually valid where as in other games one cookie cutter is best build. It gets confusing I guess.

But how much difference is there between the builds?  Does it make my offensive barbarian turn intoo a strictly defensive one? How much difference do the choices make, i think in the end a barbarian will allways play like a barbarian.

 

Dont get me wrong, i really love the rune system, and i would love to see MMO's that added such systems to every one of their spells.  allowing people to have a meaningfull choice.  But the way D3 addapted it, its in general just minor changes.

Actually yes your barb can go from extreme damage to extreme defense, you can make a speed barb, CC barb or a balance of all. 

The choices are huge, go look at the skill tree and decide on what kind of build you want to play with. You'll have a hard time figuring out what is gonna be best for you.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian

But the real question is, can all of those successfully complete the content in almost the exact same manner? if there aren't really great variants in how you play the game based on these choices in the end they are all bascially the same.

And you have to be careful, because if these choices really do result in signfincantly different gameplay, odds are pretty good that one or two will be "better" (faster, more efficient, dies less) than another and it will be come the favored build.

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by alacres

I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly? 

But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.

I think you're taking it way too far personally :)

On normal and hell difficulty no one is going to care what abilities you are using so long as progress is being made. When and if you get to Nightmare and Inferno, or play hardcore, people are going to expect you to be using a build that works well. Why? Because their success, and their character's existence in hardcore, is dependent on you being able to perform.

If you go into Inferno using some random build that doesn't actually do anything - which, might I add, is not likely to happen in D3 due to the way the skills are built - then why should people tolerate that? I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure most other people intending to clear Nightmare and Inferno wouldn't.

In D2 on Hell you turned up in the right spec. If anyone got any idea that you WEREN'T in the right spec, you just got removed. You didn't have leverage at the top end, so I have no idea why you are claiming you did. The talent system - and the complexities involved with respecing - made it so that if you weren't in a spec that your group wanted, you were simply removed from the group. At the lower end, and just like in D3, any spec worked for anything.

It's no different to what happens in MMOs; turn up to an instance in the wrong spec, get told to respec or get removed.

The difference here is that there are MORE right specs to be used in various instances.

You don't have to believe me; you can just go and look at how the skills are built using the TCs on Diablo3.com.

All I get from you is that you want to be able to play how you want at all times, regardless of level of difficulty. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. In reality... that would result in a system where by EVERYONE may as well have 1 skill that they use from start to finish, without any chance to make any decisions at any point because they'd all be superfluous anyway.

Not at all, not sure why you think that.

Well, either I only joined groups that were the exception to the rule, or I had a build close enough to cookie cutter parameters to be considered acceptable, because I never had any problems in D2, regardless of the difficulty (I never played hardcore though, so I don't doubt how strict people are there). Even if anyone had said anything, at least I would have had the defense/leverage of, "well, it's a pain in the ass to respec, so give me a shot the way I am and see how it works out," With D3, there wouldn't be any good excuse for keeping the build you actually like using, because due to the ease of it, you will be expected to respec whenever necessary, and I really hate that. Again I ask, why even have builds at all? If you can't keep a certain kind of "build identity" to your character, what's even the point? Just like your last example, why even have any choice at all with a system like this? The game might as well just pick what's best for you depending on what you're doing since you're going to have to do that anyway.

Also, I'll believe the "MORE right specs" when I actually see them in practice. Things can sometimes play out differently on the field, especially in each respective situation (boss fights for example). 

This sounds like 200 hours of unique gameplay per class

Originally posted by syntax42

The biggest complaint I'm reading about the game is the skill system.  I don't see how the arguments about the skill system not being complex enough can hold any water.  Just looking at the Monk, you have 3 to 4 skills to choose from in each skill slot.  Each skill has five different possible runes that affect the power in significantly-different ways.  On top of that, you can choose three out of fourteen different passive skills.

 

Just in case my math is wrong, someone can double-check it.

(4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (14 x 13 x 12) = 58.968 billion

 

Oh, and the Monk has the fewest choices of skills.

 

 

I understand that many do not like the change of the skill system from the original Diablo.  Let's face it though, point allocation was a legacy system that needed to be replaced.  It made the skill system far more complex and less immersive when you have to deal with micro-numbers every time you level.  On top of that, you still ended up with cookie-cutter builds.

 

I like the new skill system after playing the open beta over the weekend.  It makes the game more accessible to those who don't want to spend days over-analyzing numbers instead of playing the game.  It also means I can play around with various skills until I find a build that works for me.

But I can no longer irreversible screw up my character AND more than one end game build might be viable. This game franchise has really gone downhill. What is Blizzard thinking?

/sarcasm

Don't give enough choices...people bitch.  Too many choices...people still bitch.  You can't please everyone and certainly can't please the vast minority.

My complaint with the skill system in D3 is that it doesn't feel like you're really building your character. I kind of like the more classical method of building up my character slowly by picking abilities and such that fit the play style I'm going for.

In Diablo 3 it feels more like a toolbox where new tools are arbitrarily put into your box, letting you switch tools in and out. But only between the tools the game decided you should have.

But other than the way you acquire the skills, I think the new skill system is a big improvement over the old one.

Originally posted by Axxar

My complaint with the skill system in D3 is that it doesn't feel like you're really building your character. I kind of like the more classical method of building up my character slowly by picking abilities and such that fit the play style I'm going for.

In Diablo 3 it feels more like a toolbox where new tools are arbitrarily put into your box, letting you switch tools in and out. But only between the tools the game decided you should have.

But other than the way you acquire the skills, I think the new skill system is a big improvement over the old one.

I like this new approach. Each skill has some mechanics, instead of just a plain x% increase to y ability. I also like how you can customize abilities. Very cool compared to the old "put 10 points here because you have to max this skill" type set up.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by ArChWind

Some can't seem to understand that 99% of those builds are actually valid where as in other games one cookie cutter is best build. It gets confusing I guess.

But how much difference is there between the builds?  Does it make my offensive barbarian turn intoo a strictly defensive one? How much difference do the choices make, i think in the end a barbarian will allways play like a barbarian.

 

Dont get me wrong, i really love the rune system, and i would love to see MMO's that added such systems to every one of their spells.  allowing people to have a meaningfull choice.  But the way D3 addapted it, its in general just minor changes.

if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.

Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .