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Neverwinter Forum » General Discussion » Shocked by 4e forgotten realms campaign

17 posts found
  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8149

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

 
OP  3/31/13 2:10:23 PM#1

Actualy i was stunned when i found out what i missed since i stopped reading forgotten realms novels about 6 years ag

 

 

I cant beleive they ruined the best ip in the fantasy world.. (Smiles) atleast they made sure the world i dearly knew and loved is gone.. I read a little in the wiki and it seems 100 years have passed since 3rd edition, with a major even, the spellplague taking place after Cyric has killed Mystra, most people i loved and adored are gone, bruenor, Wulfgar, Regis and Caithie Brie are death, living in a pocket reallity. Elminster and Khelben have changed intoo spiritual artifacts, most of the seven sisters are gone, the center of the realms was moved from waterdeep and the dalelands to neverwinter.

 

But good old Drizzt is still alive... 

 

When youre getting older, you dont like changes that much anymore, i allready miss my heroes. Inam wondering if these are still the realms i love to wander in, it feels a little like Star Wars without Jedi, right now... Knowing they have moved on makes me realise the old realms will never return, which truely makes me feel a little sad, like someone that just lost a dear friend. For 10 years me and my pnp friends adventured in the forgotten realms (have our own world now)

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 762

3/31/13 3:20:39 PM#2

Actually the butchering of FR is part of what turned many away from D&D and onto Pathfinder.  Yeah the world we loved and hold dear is dead.  Just like the Dragonlance world.  When the gods returned and blowing up of the High Clerist Tower I lost intrest in the books. 

Still... would LOVE  a Dargonlance MMO.

  Alber_gamer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 402

3/31/13 7:32:49 PM#3

If after 100 years humans like Wulfgar and Catti-brie were alive, I would not take Forgotten Realms seriously anymore. Elminster was what, 1200+ years old? Yeah, choose me too, Mystra.

 

There is something that always happens with every popular setting tho. Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate (haha that's a lot of Stars), etc. Recently it's also happening in videogames. World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, The Witcher... it just needs to be popular enough.

 

At some point, the fans of a setting feel entitled to decide themselves how the lore and the events of the setting should develop, and what should be the outcome of every major situation. More often than not, this is because the fans can't get over the fact that some important character is dying, or disappearing forever. Or simply because the outcome of some conflict wasn't as wonderful and happy as they would have wanted.

 

This self-entitlement is going to destroy the art of writing and telling stories, as writers see themselves almost under the obligation of pleasing the rabid masses, afraid to lose too many fans and lose monetary support to keep creating stories. They sell their artistic integrity just to please entitled whiners, because money moves the world, and they need it, even at the cost of giving up on their principles. Also known as "fanservice".

 

What not many people get to notice is that it's the writers who are talented at writing stories and who make those stories worth experiencing, not the dumb morons that got nothing to do but play videgames at their 30 years old while still living with mom.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  Cochran1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 460

"Fish can't sit down cause they got no laps!!"

3/31/13 7:56:47 PM#4
Originally posted by Alber_gamer

If after 100 years humans like Wulfgar and Catti-brie were alive, I would not take Forgotten Realms seriously anymore. Elminster was what, 1200+ years old? Yeah, choose me too, Mystra.

 

There is something that always happens with every popular setting tho. Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate (haha that's a lot of Stars), etc. Recently it's also happening in videogames. World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, The Witcher... it just needs to be popular enough.

 

At some point, the fans of a setting feel entitled to decide themselves how the lore and the events of the setting should develop, and what should be the outcome of every major situation. More often than not, this is because the fans can't get over the fact that some important character is dying, or disappearing forever. Or simply because the outcome of some conflict wasn't as wonderful and happy as they would have wanted.

 

This self-entitlement is going to destroy the art of writing and telling stories, as writers see themselves almost under the obligation of pleasing the rabid masses, afraid to lose too many fans and lose monetary support to keep creating stories. They sell their artistic integrity just to please entitled whiners, because money moves the world, and they need it, even at the cost of giving up on their principles. Also known as "fanservice".

 

What not many people get to notice is that it's the writers who are talented at writing stories and who make those stories worth experiencing, not the dumb morons that got nothing to do but play videgames at their 30 years old while still living with mom.

 I've found that many have attached themselves to these Heroes to the point that they roll their characters to emulate them. The game has always been about developing your own unique hero and building his or her story. That's how we came to know many of these famous heroes, someone rolled them and played their stotry out and decided to take it a step further by writing fan fiction based around those characters.

There are probably less people trying to submit fan fiction these days, which leaves us with the same authors writing about the same characters. If they continue the story and timeline we are bound to see these characters stories come to and end at some point.

 

vizzledrix Xfire Miniprofile
  atuerstar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 238

3/31/13 8:06:05 PM#5
Originally posted by furbans

Actually the butchering of FR is part of what turned many away from D&D and onto Pathfinder.  Yeah the world we loved and hold dear is dead.  Just like the Dragonlance world.  When the gods returned and blowing up of the High Clerist Tower I lost intrest in the books. 

Still... would LOVE  a Dargonlance MMO.

Odd isnt it. Ive given dragonlance a lot of time but nothing held me like the orginal chronicles and legends series. I think though, now after all these years, I'd much rather see the Death Gate Cycle become an mmo.

  JDogg126

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/16/08
Posts: 44

You've ruined your own lands, you'll not ruin mine!

3/31/13 11:08:13 PM#6
I've read the neverwinter saga by R.A. Salvatore.  It's actually a very good story about the continuing legend of Drizzt that explores quite a bit of the same type of lamentation made in the OP.  Old friends are missed, the world has become a darker place, but there are still goodly folk in the world.  There are still many interesting characters and tales to be had in the Forgotten Realms.  Certainly the world is not what it once was but I don't feel it butchered really.
  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

4/01/13 6:01:31 AM#7

This as my clumsy attempt summarizing the changes in Neverwinter which I post on official forums. I tried to be dramatic, but it didn't really sound that good. But the information is correct:-

 

 

 

This city promises death for meek, glory for bold and danger for all! <link>

Last time most texts talk about this city previously known for its precision of water clocks was more than a hundred years ago. Let me take you, adventurer, to a journey through times - what happened to this city and how it lost its clocks.

On 29th Tarsakh, 1385 DR Shar and Cyric murdered Mystra and the devastation known as Spellplague struck the realms. The city was strong - it had withstood the wailing plague and faced many ill-fortunes bravely with Lord Nasher but could it have held against the devastation that was? Luskan fell but the city held.
An unknown event caused an ancient slumber creature to wake up and in 1451 DR. And so did the fire slumbering in the pits of Mount Hotenow. First weakened by the blue fire of Spellplague and then attacked by the burning heart of Chauntea, the city eventually was destroyed by Devil worshipers and Thay. The devil worshiping Tieflings took over the city and ruled it while Valindra hatched her own plots. With Sylora Salm death in 1463 DR, Tieflings were major power in the city. The only surviving bridge called Winged Wyvern for as long as my records state, was named Herzgo Alegni. It seems the Tieflings will become the new rulers, or they will lose to Netherese making this city the center of dark powers of Towers of the Night.

Such was the fate and I, the keeper of time standing watch over the city felt time of men had come to an end.

But it was not to be. Herzgo death brought a stalemate giving the fate a chance, a hope coming from the south. In 1467 DR the Mintarn Mercenaries had arrived and along with it Lord Neverember. With his own plots and hidden personal agenda men from Waterdeep came with force taking control of Protector's Enclave. The abode of Tyr was remade even after the deity had departed from the Planes Above and it was to be the throne of the reforged kingdom of mortals - Neverwinter.

And I stood watch as how the mortals pushed away the Thay and Netherese and their intense fight from their city, the suppression of Devil worshipers and brought the plaguechanged monsters into the multipolar conflict. And on the land made of sands of such chaotic plots, is the very foundation of the New Neverwinter.

As citizen started frolicking the city to escape the ravages of Spellplague, Helm's Hold belonging to another dead deity was reclaimed and Plaguechanged citizens were sent there as a prisoner patient to be treated by Helm's monks.

It is now the year 1479 DR{or probably late 1478 DR}. The Ashamdai have made inlays into the heart of Neverwinter, using subversion and trickery to to turn one in power in their favor. I see a repeat of history with Aribeth, only held at bay by the chaos of various factions, and the recent rise of Sons of Alagondar.

And now in Driftwood Tavern, sits <General> who fights with adventurers for the defence of city walls against the assault of Valindra - the witch queen. <link>

He will be there defending the bridge tomorrow against a fresh assault. Now, where will you be?
  thecapitaine

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 317

4/01/13 8:18:08 AM#8

If the aim is to keep an IP going on for any serious length of time, creators have to have freedom to progress.  Artists need new vistas to inspire, writers need new characters to explore, and audiences crave fresh experiences.  All this can't be consistently achieved with a universe not set in motion, with characters not able to have their final soliloquy then exit the stage to make room for new leads.  From the point of view of a fan, it can be gut-wrenching to see a series move beyond the place where one is most comfortable towards unfamiliar territory but the change of scenery is necessary; and, if the same creative people are involved, it's even possible that the new setting will recapture some of the excitement that the old one once did.

 

More practically, I think FR, like many comic books, was a victim of its own success when it comes to attracting new fans and renewing the old.  There are so many stories, so much deep lore about each location, so many characters who have been everywhere and confronted everything, that it's hard to jump in fresh and take it all in.  Pushing ahead in the timeline and centering the focus on a different place still keeps the stories grounded in familiar lore but is just alien enough that new players and old get to learn the world and its inhabitants together.  It's not perfect because, like the OP, some fans are bound to dislike the change but it's the risk these long-lasting franchises have to take to stay relevant.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2372

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

4/01/13 8:30:09 AM#9
Originally posted by Alber_gamer

If after 100 years humans like Wulfgar and Catti-brie were alive, I would not take Forgotten Realms seriously anymore. Elminster was what, 1200+ years old? Yeah, choose me too, Mystra.

 

There is something that always happens with every popular setting tho. Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate (haha that's a lot of Stars), etc. Recently it's also happening in videogames. World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, The Witcher... it just needs to be popular enough.

 

At some point, the fans of a setting feel entitled to decide themselves how the lore and the events of the setting should develop, and what should be the outcome of every major situation. More often than not, this is because the fans can't get over the fact that some important character is dying, or disappearing forever. Or simply because the outcome of some conflict wasn't as wonderful and happy as they would have wanted.

 

This self-entitlement is going to destroy the art of writing and telling stories, as writers see themselves almost under the obligation of pleasing the rabid masses, afraid to lose too many fans and lose monetary support to keep creating stories. They sell their artistic integrity just to please entitled whiners, because money moves the world, and they need it, even at the cost of giving up on their principles. Also known as "fanservice".

 

What not many people get to notice is that it's the writers who are talented at writing stories and who make those stories worth experiencing, not the dumb morons that got nothing to do but play videgames at their 30 years old while still living with mom.

Pretty good post until this last unneeded bit... And what about 28 year olds playing video games? Kettle meet pot...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  hardicon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 352

4/01/13 8:32:04 AM#10

I have no problems with the characters dying, it had to happen eventually, it just seemed so suddenly.  It didnt seem like this was something that you saw coming with the lore of the game, that it was a marketing ploy to push 4th edition and to push a dumbed down version of forgotten realms dnd off onto the playerbase, just like magic the gathering is done every year now.

I personally believe when wotc took over they wanted to kill forgotten realms off to push eberron and make dnd more like magic the gathering.  eberron was not recieved so well, they even pushed a mmo out despite being told all during development fans dont want eberron, we dont want our dnd to have robots and airships, but wotc in their arrogance thought they knew what was best for dnd and not the fans and pushed it out anyway.  it flopped, pathfinder was born and fans realized it was more dndish than dnd under wotc so fans left, wotc got pissed and decided to destroy forgotten realms, at least the forgotten realms that fans loved.

it was done for corporate greed, not writer's artistry.  When Wulfgar died the first time I was saddened, not angry.  I had read those books so many times it felt like losing a close friend, but Salvatore had the right to write his story the best way he saw fit, but the absolutely stupid ending to the witch king that had cattiebrie and regis die was simply to fulfill wotc's spitefulness against the playerbase for not accepting their absolute rule and bowing down to them and worshipping them.  it is the only reason I dont play magic anymore.  I wont give that company my money after the way they handled dnd since buying it out.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

4/01/13 10:29:44 AM#11

I don't understand the logic behind people's claims that WotC kills their D&D.

 

Did they raid your house and took your 3e books away? I know people who still play AD&D and are very old. For them D&D is still AD&D. They vomit everytime they see 3e, which for me was better than AD&D. 4e is sort of bridge between AD&D and 3e so for first time we can play toghether and agree on something.

 

WotC tries to move to new challanges after exhausting one avenue. It is the so called fans who are killing their creativity with their conspiracy theories.

  Alber_gamer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 402

4/01/13 11:00:23 AM#12
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Alber_gamer

If after 100 years humans like Wulfgar and Catti-brie were alive, I would not take Forgotten Realms seriously anymore. Elminster was what, 1200+ years old? Yeah, choose me too, Mystra.

 

There is something that always happens with every popular setting tho. Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate (haha that's a lot of Stars), etc. Recently it's also happening in videogames. World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, The Witcher... it just needs to be popular enough.

 

At some point, the fans of a setting feel entitled to decide themselves how the lore and the events of the setting should develop, and what should be the outcome of every major situation. More often than not, this is because the fans can't get over the fact that some important character is dying, or disappearing forever. Or simply because the outcome of some conflict wasn't as wonderful and happy as they would have wanted.

 

This self-entitlement is going to destroy the art of writing and telling stories, as writers see themselves almost under the obligation of pleasing the rabid masses, afraid to lose too many fans and lose monetary support to keep creating stories. They sell their artistic integrity just to please entitled whiners, because money moves the world, and they need it, even at the cost of giving up on their principles. Also known as "fanservice".

 

What not many people get to notice is that it's the writers who are talented at writing stories and who make those stories worth experiencing, not the dumb morons that got nothing to do but play videgames at their 30 years old while still living with mom.

Pretty good post until this last unneeded bit... And what about 28 year olds playing video games? Kettle meet pot...

It was just a way of dramatizing and giving weight to my words. What I mean is that writers are writers because they have talent for writing. It's writers who must write the stories not untalented random fans, even when they think themselves the authorised voice of the people.

 

I apologize if I offended anyone with that last sentence.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  hardicon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 352

4/02/13 8:32:18 AM#13
well gill i dont really play dnd anymore period but i still read the books and I saw what they did to the forgotten realms campaign setting.  call it what you will but I dont like the direction wotc took the campaign setting so as a customer I dont buy their products.  its not about killing dnd for me as a player, but they did destroy alot about the world simply because they did not create it and wanted to push their own little crafted world.
  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

4/03/13 5:33:58 AM#14
Originally posted by hardicon
well gill i dont really play dnd anymore period but i still read the books and I saw what they did to the forgotten realms campaign setting.  call it what you will but I dont like the direction wotc took the campaign setting so as a customer I dont buy their products.  its not about killing dnd for me as a player, but they did destroy alot about the world simply because they did not create it and wanted to push their own little crafted world.

ofcourse you dont have to buy their new product. WotC moves to next edition only after completing previous one. The point is, each edition is complete in itself and does not need anything else from what has been realesed about it.

 

Nothing new can now be done to 3e without breaking it. As common complaint with 3e was that it had too much of number crunching, they reduced it in 4e. They also made it so that new players will feel as if it was easy to create characters, while old players will get more customization from under the hood. They also adressed the problem of 3e (<lvl 10, mage dies; >lvl 10 fighter dies)

 

Then now when 4e was recently completed, they took new feedback - players did not like new alignment system, wanted more gods - and used it in D&D Next.

 

The books you looked at was probably PHB. However one major fault with 4e was that it was shippd in peices. So there is no complete book which can be called as rulebook, or compedium like in 4e. This was probably done to shift the focus from ublished material to their website. However those who pick up PHB1 end up thinking that it contains almost everything while it actually has about 20% of the rules in it.

 

The point is, each edition is complete in itself. You do not have to 'move-on' to next. Once an edition is complete in terms of rules, it is closed. You can buy new books, or you can kep playing what you want. We used to do a lot of number crunching in 3e. From what I have seen in present genration is that they do not concentrate on numbers anymore. So the focus is going to shift back to AD&D style gameplay for the time being (until preferences of next genration changes). So the subsequent editions (4e and D&D Next) will gradually shift towards less numbers, integrating players in RPGA website, publish more books and integrate games with PnP, make the game more visual by using detailed maps for combat and using minis. However a group is free to mix the different rules from any edition which they like or to stick to earlier editions. You can easily play 4e campaigns by using 3e editions. Our group sometimes does that. Sometimes we invent our own rules.

  Jacxolope

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 511

4/03/13 7:18:21 AM#15

4th edition was an abomination.

3rd edition was...Hmmm... Still torn on it. A bit too simplified but not without merit. Has some very cool stuff anyhow. Pathfinder , however is insanely cool.

2nd edition- Loved it. Love Thaco. Love that the best armor gave you a base of 1 (as in #1)- But towards the end of its cycle it became bogged down with some very sub par suppliments.

1st edition- Fantastic but it was compleltey nessasary to tweak the system, house rule the hell out of it andchange things around. It was...Incomplete (but intentionally so) and required a good DM with knowledge of the game to put creative and original spin on the game.

Rules Cyclopedia- The best system in a single book...Period. Encompassed all the "basic D&D" books and added some new things which later found their way into 3rd edition. 

-I grew up with D&D in the early 80s . In fact, before the "Satanic Panic" D&D was played in my elementry school and DM'd by a teacher- It was so unique and quite honestly the best game ever. By high school I was DMing 2nd edition and in College I had completley house ruled 2rd edition to my own standard complete with its own gigantic players handbook.

Then I grew apart from my gaming group as we started families and jobs. =(

-But Damn- The second my kids were 10 we started playing the Rules Cyclopedia version (even my wife played although...well, it wasnt really her thing as she is sooooo not a gamer). We worked our way to 3rd edition and were very exited for 4th... It sucked. bad. Was almost like they went back to chainmail and other "wargames" and merged them with MMOs- I am ALL for wargaming (and still play wargames both tabletiop and PBEM)- But it just wasnt D&D.

-Moved to pathfinder and lived happily ever after. Pathfinder is sweet.  =P

OFF TOPIC: Anyone play "All Flesh Must be Eaten"?- I am ready for a GOOD Zombie survival RPG to start up and am thinking of picking up the books.

EDIT: Concerning the "Lore"- IMHO it was all pretty much shit. When I was 12 I loved the Dragonlance Trilogy and when I was like 14 I thought Drizzt was cool as hell. Recently read the books again and they are...Well, good for a 12 year old, lol... We always made our own "Worlds" and with the exception of Ravenloft (actually did have some cool lore) never really concerned ourselves with "lore"...Too m uch good fantasy out there.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/03/13 10:48:09 PM#16

Heh, I can understand some of the changes left you shocked. But overall I welcome the changes. Faerun needed a sort of a shakeup. So we can discover the lands new, and not like "oh I know every rock and stone for 30 years now". Some changes are sad, like losing my most fav deities, or some of the most important people either died or were altered beyond use.

But I like the change overall. Which reminds me. I guess I am still the only person who actually tried to make a 4e World Map... I still gotta have it somewhere... hmmm....

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  itchmon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1419

4/03/13 11:00:42 PM#17

i am sorry in advance if the following comments come off as snotty. 

 

to the OP, please read a LOT of the "independant IPs" fiction before you call F.R. the best IP in fantasy.

 

wheel of time, game of thrones to name two of the very best.  more importantly, though, try some of the newer fantasists out there who are just now inventing new worlds from scratch and taking our beloved genre into the future.  Mazarkis Williams of the Knife books (the third book of the trilogy still being written), David Durham of the Acacia books, Brent Weeks of the Night angel books.

 

as much as i was thrilled to see the original D&D online what i would really like to see is the digital realization of some of these newer entries into the fantasy genre.

 

I feel the strength of our continually evolving IPs is one of the factors that will carry fantasy gaming forward for years.

 

thanks for listening and happpy reading whatever you decide to read.

 

Itch

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

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