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46 posts found
  Kaerigan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/06
Posts: 713

2/20/13 7:20:36 AM#21
Originally posted by xpiher
Playing through a story line isn't very sandbox guys. Also, why do people think its acceptable to open-source developement to supplement content that lacks in a game? 

Boo for more content!

<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>

  fs23otm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 271

2/20/13 7:25:41 AM#22
Originally posted by xpiher

Perpetum, The Repopulation, Salem, Haven and Hearth, Ultima Online, Star Citizen, SWG pre NGE (removed a lot of the sandbox content), Moral Online, Day Z (although small scale), etc are all sandbox games. Vanguard was close, but had linear progression in quests, dungeons, and items. Same thing with Tera. A political system isn't the only thing that makes a game a sandbox, but its an important feautre IMO due to the fact that it keeps things fresh. UO didn't have politics in the meaningful sense but it had EVERYTHING ELSE, player created maps, houses, stores, faction warfare, guild warfare, stealing, skill based level/character system, etc etc. 

AoW is close to a sandbox the issue is with the way content is delievered. Most of it is deilevered like a repeatable daily and territory control is gimmickie and very in the standard Asian style. What sets ArchAge apart from AoW is both the character creation system (although AoW does this well by allowing you to steal other school's skills and forcing you to rely on other playres to finish it very sandboxy) but also with the way housing and territory control is set up. When you take over an area you have direct control over it. You can tax people who live in your "kingdom" or destroy their house, or steal their crops whenever you want. The amount of player driven content by that alone makes me drool.

If you look at my quote, I was pointing out how he was saying player ran governments make a sandbox. Tera fit HIS definition.

The fun thing about sandbox games is they are niche... bottom line. Every game you listed is small market, not that there is anything wrong with that. The thing wrong is the "sandbox community" coming here to whine about all the other games that aren't sandboxes. 

Back on topic however, NW will be a good game, with some user crested content. I would rather have a good game with the possibility for good user created content than a sandbox. 

I played UO, I played SWG pre-NGE, I played EQ.... and for the most part todays games are better entertainment experiences then the past. Why? Time you are required to play vs Time you have to play. Most of the UO, EQ, SWG generations are 10+ years older with less time.

I will enjoy NW, and I will make some kick butt content with it for all to enjoy.

  emikochan

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 283

Welcome to my world.

2/20/13 7:32:33 AM#23
Open sourced content is the definition of a sandbox. If you can't make things in the game that weren't there before you joined, then it's not a sandbox is it :p

  Vannor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2998

2/20/13 7:45:47 AM#24
I'd say it's a themepark.. but it is possible to create free roam and/or non-linear quests and dungeons with the foundry.
  xpiher

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3305

 
OP  2/20/13 8:01:03 AM#25
Originally posted by fs23otm
Originally posted by xpiher

Perpetum, The Repopulation, Salem, Haven and Hearth, Ultima Online, Star Citizen, SWG pre NGE (removed a lot of the sandbox content), Moral Online, Day Z (although small scale), etc are all sandbox games. Vanguard was close, but had linear progression in quests, dungeons, and items. Same thing with Tera. A political system isn't the only thing that makes a game a sandbox, but its an important feautre IMO due to the fact that it keeps things fresh. UO didn't have politics in the meaningful sense but it had EVERYTHING ELSE, player created maps, houses, stores, faction warfare, guild warfare, stealing, skill based level/character system, etc etc. 

AoW is close to a sandbox the issue is with the way content is delievered. Most of it is deilevered like a repeatable daily and territory control is gimmickie and very in the standard Asian style. What sets ArchAge apart from AoW is both the character creation system (although AoW does this well by allowing you to steal other school's skills and forcing you to rely on other playres to finish it very sandboxy) but also with the way housing and territory control is set up. When you take over an area you have direct control over it. You can tax people who live in your "kingdom" or destroy their house, or steal their crops whenever you want. The amount of player driven content by that alone makes me drool.

If you look at my quote, I was pointing out how he was saying player ran governments make a sandbox. Tera fit HIS definition.

The fun thing about sandbox games is they are niche... bottom line. Every game you listed is small market, not that there is anything wrong with that. The thing wrong is the "sandbox community" coming here to whine about all the other games that aren't sandboxes. 

Back on topic however, NW will be a good game, with some user crested content. I would rather have a good game with the possibility for good user created content than a sandbox. 

I played UO, I played SWG pre-NGE, I played EQ.... and for the most part todays games are better entertainment experiences then the past. Why? Time you are required to play vs Time you have to play. Most of the UO, EQ, SWG generations are 10+ years older with less time.

I will enjoy NW, and I will make some kick butt content with it for all to enjoy.

You do realize you are replying ot the same person right? BTW, I'm not complaining the game isn't sandbox. I was asking if it was because I saw some sandbox elements in the story lines influencing how the world treats you.


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher

  StarI

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 840

2/20/13 10:13:52 AM#26

If you're not entirely sure about the differences between themepark and sandbox questing, than read on.

 

I'll start with sandbox examples because I believe everyone (should) know what a themepark quest is (talk to npc or visit an area-initiate a task-carry the task out to finish the quest).

Just to clear it up, a sandbox may have some themepark questing included, but only as a "fluff" to add a little dimension but in no way should a player look at themepark questing as a main body of a game in a real sandbox!

 

So what is a real sandbox quest? Read the example below (added markers Q1-4 to make quests parts clearer).

 

You heard that there are random treasures to be found across the land where you live in. You decide to try your luck hunting treasure chest so you head out exploring (Q1). Following a road it brings you near what it seems abandoned village overrun by some evil npc mobs. You decide to avoid it, just when you spot a fellow player fighting a group of skeletons behind one of the cottages. He seems low on health so you instead decide to aid him (Q2). After the fight you greet him "Hi" and ask what's he up to. He tells you the skeletons poses certain items he needs for crafting his new armor and you decide to join on the grind (Q3). You know there are sometimes player bandits plundering this land, deciding not to stay around for too long and instead head home to secure your loot and prepare for a big clan adventure in the evening... Your clan leader has planned a raid on nearby player populated fort in an attempt to claim it home and make lands more secure for our own (Q4).

 

I think the above 4Quest example doesn't need much more explanations.

Basicaly every decision you make is a quest and it's up to you and you alone to pick and walk a path. For example at Q1 you could have instead went fishing. At Q2 you could have decided to kill a player, to stand by and lol at his death, or to simply pursue your first Quest no matter what. At Q4 you could decide to offer help with war preparations, could go scout enemy area, you could try to be an infiltrator and a spy, etc..

You and your fellow gamers make your own quests, but you do NOT need any quest generator or quest creator. Because in many cases You and your fellow gamers ARE the quests. Player interaction is very important, but not just any player interaction.

Every themepark has player interaction as well. It's just that themepark games as whole are bottled down into many predefined ways, instances, hand held options and such that only allow to very limited results (not talking about quantity) and player interaction often reflects that.

 

One other related thing, a real sanbox requires more energy from players. Wait, no it doesn't really require anything, but your game time will reflect lazzines, unsocial behaviour and similar traits much more than a themepark does.  You need more self initiative to do stuff and this is one of the main reasons why so many people play themeparks where things are predefined by developers and  often get thrown right in your face to comfort you more.

 

So yeah, to end directly on topic, quest creator is esentially just as much as themepark as is sandbox. Both themepark AND sandbox can have such a tool but it doesn't necessarily define a game in one or the other way.

 

 

  Az2002ro

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 164

2/20/13 11:38:25 AM#27
Originally posted by StarI

You heard that there are random treasures to be found across the land where you live in. You decide to try your luck hunting treasure chest so you head out exploring (Q1). Following a road it brings you near what it seems abandoned village overrun by some evil npc mobs. You decide to avoid it, just when you spot a fellow player fighting a group of skeletons behind one of the cottages. He seems low on health so you instead decide to aid him (Q2). After the fight you greet him "Hi" and ask what's he up to. He tells you the skeletons poses certain items he needs for crafting his new armor and you decide to join on the grind (Q3). You know there are sometimes player bandits plundering this land, deciding not to stay around for too long and instead head home to secure your loot and prepare for a big clan adventure in the evening... Your clan leader has planned a raid on nearby player populated fort in an attempt to claim it home and make lands more secure for our own (Q4).

This is your example of a sandbox Quest???  Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!!  Were done arguing!

Lets retell your quest story to prove the point...

 

I was wandering through Azeroth and realized there were treasures to be found across the land.  I decided to try my luck hunting for these treasure chest and went out exploring(Q1, fully doable in WoW).  Following a road out of Crossroads, it brought me to an overrun camp.  I decided to avoid it, just when I spotted a fellow player fighting Renegade Tarun/Orcs.  He seemed low on health so I decided to aid him (Q2, fully doable in WoW).  After the fight I greet him and ask what he's up to. He tells me the Tarun/Orc poses certain items he needs for crafting his new armor and I decide to join on hte grind (Q3, fully doable in WoW).  I know that the Alliance sometimes plunder this land, so I decide not to stay around too long and instead head home to Orgrimar to secure my loot and prepare for a big guild adventure in the evening... My guild leader has planned a raid on the alliance town in an attempt to claim it home and make our lands more secure for our own (Q4, fully doable in WoW)

 

Hmm, looks like every MMO is now sandbox. 

  User Deleted
2/20/13 12:19:31 PM#28

Honestly, what's the discussion here?

 

NWO is purely a Themepark. Even the Foundry generates linear quests (get objective A, kill Fred, or interact with B). You can be clever with that content and create the illusion of a Sandbox quest (not a sandbox game), but those quests are done in your own little instance, and certainly have no effect upon your story. They aren't tailored to you, nor do they grant achievements. And these illusory quests will be exceedingly rare. Your choices in dealing with stuff are still limited to what the creator of said content thought of. 

 

And they are linear; you can just use the linear-ness in a non-linear fashion so that the person playing the content doesn't think it is. But ultimately it is - "do ABC, then do XYZ". The Foundry doesn't support truly freeform quest creation. And I'm not criticising it; it's just not the game's purpose. It's primarily an action RPG. 

 

Crafting and tradeskills are, at best, simplistic, and does not create a player-driven economy. (I'm going out on a limb on this one; I didn't see crafting in the beta weekend, but based off of the materials they dropped, it's not going to be anything like SWG). Crafting is something you do while leveling to make some items that make you currency. It's not something you can do without making a single level in your class.

 

I personally don't care and enjoy the game as-is for being a themepark. I also love sandbox games, and hope one gets made in the fantasy genre which is a bit more modern. But let's call a spade a spade. Because if I read a apost and I'm thinking I can log in an experience sandbox content via Foundry, I would be pretty pissed off at that from 99% of the quests. 

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

2/20/13 4:16:20 PM#29

The discussion has gone way off track here.

 

Sandbox quest or more accurately, nonlinear quests - are possible to make in the game.

However contrary to how people make look on forums, these quests are never popular among major demographics of players. It caters to very small percentage of players. Most people want to go from point A to point B to get quests done. Thus nonlinear quests are not profitable to make. Only games which cater to small percentage of MMO players would dare make it. Even single player games don't often go for such a setting extensively.

What are nonlinear quests? : In these quests, you search for objectives yourself. If you do point A; point B to do same quest will not be possible. You are free to choose any objective you want whenever you want it. You can run around town talking to various people, do their quests - doing a quest Z will change the enviornment, even if you do quest Z before quest A, B, C etc. Also you have branching stories thus experience for each player will be different depending on choices and class/race or some other differential.

 

Lastly, as I said, you can play the campaign "Maiden in the Moon" next time to see how nonlinear you can make a quest using the powerful UGC. It is all upto imaginatin and creativity of author.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

2/20/13 4:31:42 PM#30

"Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

 

That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

 

"This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

You wake up at campfire. Then:-

You may decide to go north, west or south.

If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

 

~~~~

Something like that.

 

~~~~

tl;dr

It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

  xpiher

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3305

 
OP  2/20/13 8:08:42 PM#31
Originally posted by gillrmn

"Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

 

That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

 

"This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

You wake up at campfire. Then:-

You may decide to go north, west or south.

If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

 

~~~~

Something like that.

 

~~~~

tl;dr

It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

What makes you think most people hate non-linear quests? 


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

3/07/13 10:32:02 AM#32
Originally posted by xpiher

...

What makes you think most people hate non-linear quests? 

Classified feedback to my non-linear quest which I can't talk about.

They were there last beta, but this month I have been busy so I am not sure if my quest has been re-uploaded to beta servers for the weekend. But if it is there, it would have a name like "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase". You can try yourself.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17601

3/07/13 11:16:11 AM#33
Originally posted by gillrmn

"Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

 

That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

 

"This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

You wake up at campfire. Then:-

You may decide to go north, west or south.

If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

 

~~~~

Something like that.

 

~~~~

tl;dr

It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 370

3/07/13 11:22:06 AM#34

Eve Online is a niche game?  Ultima Online was a niche game?

 

Stop touting WOWs 9 million subs as an excuse to say sandbox type of games are failures.  Everything is a failure when stacked up against WOW.  All the other themepark MMOs are failures even if you combine their subscriptions and compare them to WOW.

 

 

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

3/07/13 11:35:05 AM#35
Originally posted by Sovrath
...

hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

You need to check and brush up your concept of linear and non-linear gameplay.

 

Linear is if you do A->B->C->D

 

Nonlinear is if you have A, B, C, D, E ,F ,G, H and you may chose to do them in any order, or not do any of them at all (exit) or do A, D, F and leave. All of them can be made so that you complete the map regardless.

Additionally, you can make it so such that doing B changes enviornment completely, or doing F disables G and H; or doing A enables C.

 

All these non-linear elements are possible. Sorry I can't elaborate on "how" part for now, but if you ask at appropriate place at appropriate time, you can get a nice tutorial on how to do it.

 

EDIT:

This might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay

 

Quoting:-

"

Nonlinear level design

A game level or world can be linear or nonlinear. In a game with linear levels, there is only one route that the player must take through the level. In games with nonlinear levels, players might have to revisit locations or choose from multiple paths to finish the level.

As with other game elements, linear level design is not absolute. While a nonlinear level can give the freedom to explore or backtrack, there can be a sequence of challenges that a player must solve to complete the level. If a player must confront the challenges in a fixed order nonlinear games will often give multiple approaches to achieve said objectives.

A more linear game requires a player to finish levels in a fixed sequence to win. The ability to skip, repeat, or choose between levels makes this type of game less linear. Super Mario Bros. is an early example of this, where the player had access to warp zones that skipped many levels of the game.

When a level is sufficiently large and open-ended, it may be described as an open world,[30] or sandbox game, though this term is often used incorrectly.[31][32] Open world game designs have existed in some form since the 1980s, such as the space trading game Elite, and often make use of procedural generation.
"
  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

3/07/13 11:42:01 AM#36
Suffix to say a dedicated author can make open world quest in foundry(Highest form of nonlinearity in any quest). That should put to rest any doubts about interpretation of nonlinearity.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17601

3/07/13 1:13:19 PM#37
Originally posted by gillrmn
Originally posted by Sovrath
...

hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

You need to check and brush up your concept of linear and non-linear gameplay.

 

Linear is if you do A->B->C->D

 

quote as many wikipedia articles as you'd like, you need to brush up on linear/non-linear story telling.

I don't care if someone says that  forking paths is non-linear. It's linear. It's forward, forward, forward, foreward.

No wonder we can't get more imaginative game play in these games.

maybe watch the last year at marienbad and get an idea as to the extreme of non-linear story telling.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

3/07/13 1:42:10 PM#38
Originally posted by Sovrath
... 

quote as many wikipedia articles as you'd like, you need to brush up on linear/non-linear story telling.

I don't care if someone says that  forking paths is non-linear. It's linear. It's forward, forward, forward, foreward.

No wonder we can't get more imaginative game play in these games.

maybe watch the last year at marienbad and get an idea as to the extreme of non-linear story telling.

Please read once again carefully. I think you missed the part just under where you cut the quote. I also consider forking path just one most minor element of non-linear gameplay.

 

I am a proponent of repetition so here it is:-

 

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H are sub-quests. A can be free a woman, B can be fight the trolls, C can be solve a puzzle, D can be perform a magical ritual, D can be etc etc etc.

 

Now, first of all:-

 

1- You can choose to do them in any order.

2- Suddenly you decide that if you kill the troll(B) you need not rescue the woman(A). So if you do B before A, A disappears. If you do B after A, you can still do it.

3- You decide that only one of E,F or G,H should be done - not both.

4- Player may not be able to find quest  D which you have hidden. If he finds it, traps spring up in some other quest (like G and H).

5- If the player decides to leave all the quests, he should be able to do so. Or if you want the player to do at least one of A,B,C and two of E,F,G,H : you should be able to make it so that those quests be done before the player can finish the map(i.e. at least 1+2 quests in total).

6- Player should find all quests accidently. Like if he decides to talk to an old woman and help her, only then he finds quest A.

7- You suddenly decide to punish the players. So if he does choose to kill a puppy somewhere, you block quest C from ever being done.

 

 

If this is linear quest, then any non-linear quest in PnP or video games is yet to be discovered by mankind. And the real life is completely linear too.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3174

I actually still like MMORPGs

3/07/13 1:44:10 PM#39
You could say its not innovative because CoX already had it. If they weren't the ones who put it in CoX.

Truth is cryptic is the only company trying player created content in a meaningful way, so it is a really big deal.

  Alber_gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 483

3/07/13 1:51:43 PM#40

Creating their own content is what players want, it's not done out of lack of developped content. And even if it was, I couldn't care less. I'd be happy if Neverwinter wasn't even a game, just a Forgotten Realms based dungeon creator with all the tools that the Foundry will bring over the table. The world of gaming needed something like it.

 

Plus the game is free to play.  Nobody's taking anybody's money to then disappoint them with lack of content here. 

 

 

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

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