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Neverwinter Forum » General Discussion » Why Neverwinter just might be the ultimate themepark

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48 posts found
  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 669

11/01/12 8:22:27 AM#21
About having a big skillbar.  People just use macros. If I have to press 10+ buttons in a fight that is waaay to many and all I would be doing is watching my skillbar.
  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1278

11/01/12 8:23:16 AM#22
Originally posted by ShakyMo
There's no skill to wow, its just having the right castsequence macros, grinding the right gear and not standing in fire.

Lots of icons on your toolbar just give the illusion of complexity.

Of course some people don't like this more action style combat from the likes of gw2 & tsw because you have to pay attention. You can't play them while watching tv, where as with wow and other games you could "grind shit" while watching tv. (you sort of can with gw2 though with the right class / build, but that's more down to the game being too easy than there being less icons on the toolbar)

Look at this way, you only have "6 items on your toolbar' with street fighter, but its way more complex combat than mmos.

The best control systems are simple to pick up but have lots of emergent complexity as you get practiced with them and develop your skills. Sticking it right in your have with 40+ skills doesn't make it more complex, especially when you have macros.

No it's not. It's really easy. (I'm talking about PvE Street Fighter here as you keep mentioning skill rotation in skill based MMO's. You can't keep to skill rotation and watching the telly in PvP MMO's)

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2210

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

11/01/12 8:28:10 AM#23
Originally posted by ignore_me
Watched the latest bit on Neverwinter. Is it just me, or do we lose hotbar buttons with each new MMO? Pretty soon there will just be one button to press called "Attack"

EQ released with limited slots for the hotbar; in fact you can augment the number with AAs, but it is still limited. You have far more abilities than you have space on your bar. DCUO and GW2 would be other examples. 

Some games are designed this way as a way of adding the challenge of knowing the 'right' spell to load for the 'right' situation. 

Done correctly, this can actually add complexity to the game.

But just fyi, EQ's original warrior pretty much had:

attack, kick, bash and taunt. Forever.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/01/12 8:28:42 AM#24
Yeah but your wrong. Way more complexity in Sf with what counters what, getting combos off, what breaks defences,what counters breakers, when to use charge, setting up attacks on the reverse side etc..

Sure easy modes solo you can just block,bash what looks like the appropriate button and spam the odd special move. But tournament play and even harder difficulty solo play is way more complex than typical mmo combat.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7171

11/01/12 8:30:17 AM#25
No pvp is a huge minus. It kinda throws the virtual world thing out the window. I'm a huge D&D fan who loves the neverwinter lore, but I wont be playing. Companies that neglect pvp will regret it.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1814

"I shall take your position into consideration"

11/01/12 8:31:18 AM#26
Originally posted by tom_gore

You have 30 different abilities, of which maybe 2-3 are applicable in any given moment and even then, only one of them is the one you should use.

 2-3?

Ever played WoW PVP?

I play rogue...I get engaged as a warrior, I can go with:

Blind to CC, Dismantle to disable his skills and fight, Vanish + sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid dmg, CoS to reduce dmg, Shadow dance + cheap shot to CC and fight, Vanish + SAP, Vanish + cheap shot, Shadowstep + backstab, vanish + shadowstep + ambush / cheap shot, gouge,... these are just moves I can think of immediately, there are many more moves you can make. Many skills do provide you with variety of actions you can take...

Imagine you have 6 skills...what would you do  

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2505

11/01/12 8:39:27 AM#27
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by tom_gore

You have 30 different abilities, of which maybe 2-3 are applicable in any given moment and even then, only one of them is the one you should use.

 2-3?

Ever played WoW PVP?

I play rogue...I get engaged as a warrior, I can go with:

Blind to CC, Dismantle to disable his skills and fight, Vanish + sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid dmg, CoS to reduce dmg, Shadow dance + cheap shot to CC and fight, Vanish + SAP, Vanish + cheap shot, Shadowstep + backstab, vanish + shadowstep + ambush / cheap shot, gouge,... these are just moves I can think of immediately, there are many more moves you can make. Many skills do provide you with variety of actions you can take...

Imagine you have 6 skills...what would you do  

Most of the skills are so conditional that they need to be used in only one or two situations. Not very useful.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  revy66

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/10
Posts: 470

11/01/12 8:39:39 AM#28
Originally posted by bcbully
No pvp is a huge minus. It kinda throws the virtual world thing out the window. I'm a huge D&D fan who loves the neverwinter lore, but I wont be playing. Companies that neglect pvp will regret it.

They already said there will be pvp at launch, it's one of the reasons they delayed the game.

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1278

11/01/12 8:40:15 AM#29
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yeah but your wrong. Way more complexity in Sf with what counters what, getting combos off, what breaks defences,what counters breakers, when to use charge, setting up attacks on the reverse side etc..

Sure easy modes solo you can just block,bash what looks like the appropriate button and spam the odd special move. But tournament play and even harder difficulty solo play is way more complex than typical mmo combat.

I'm sorry I dont agree with you.

You mention in SF you learn what counters what. You have to do that in MMO's also. However in MMO's you have to learn with alot more skills at your disposal.

You also mention skill rotation. How long does it take, lets take WoW as an example, to learn the skill rotations, what enemy to use which skill rotation on and what skills counter what skills. It takes a much longer time to work out than SF.

To me what your saying is boxing is more complex than chess.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

11/01/12 8:42:09 AM#30
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by tom_gore

You have 30 different abilities, of which maybe 2-3 are applicable in any given moment and even then, only one of them is the one you should use.

 2-3?

Ever played WoW PVP?

I play rogue...I get engaged as a warrior, I can go with:

Blind to CC, Dismantle to disable his skills and fight, Vanish + sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid dmg, CoS to reduce dmg, Shadow dance + cheap shot to CC and fight, Vanish + SAP, Vanish + cheap shot, Shadowstep + backstab, vanish + shadowstep + ambush / cheap shot, gouge,... these are just moves I can think of immediately, there are many more moves you can make. Many skills do provide you with variety of actions you can take...

Imagine you have 6 skills...what would you do  

Yeah I've played WoW PvP, as a rogue nevertheless. I have a Logitech G13 and Razer Naga and I was still running out of buttons trying to map everything.

But most of the abilities are copies of each other, just on different cooldowns or having a tiny bit different effect. Of course making those abilities like this makes it "harder" because the player needs to memorize and map more keys. But it still is not complexity unless by complexity you mean making it complex to have enough keys or having to macro a lot of abilities. There is no more depth in WoW combat than for example GW2. It's all an illusion.

No MMO today has 6 skills. GW2 has at least 11 on any character + 5 more with weapon swap. Many characters have even more.

My point is: You can make a very complex combat with just 10 slots on the hotbar. Giving the player 30 skills he can equip on the screen all at once is just a lazy way of adding complexity and I'm glad games are moving away from that model.

 

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1385

11/01/12 8:47:48 AM#31
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by ignore_me
Watched the latest bit on Neverwinter. Is it just me, or do we lose hotbar buttons with each new MMO? Pretty soon there will just be one button to press called "Attack"

I personally love limited hotbar design.  Its elegant and anything more then 8 abilities is getting in to the realm of to many abilities.  The great thing about limited hotbars + action combat is that your normally more attuned to situational awareness instead of doing a rotation.  The thing that TSW got wrong with their limited botbar setup is they implemented it into a stand still and fight MMO.  In games like NW, GW2, and TESO the action is all about movement and keeping your eye on the action rather on that perfect rotation i.e. WoW style.

I can't decide if I like the limited hotbar design or not.

TSW is more actiony imo than GW2.  Standing still will be a problem as you progress into the game.  I prefer GW2 combat as you don't have to spam 1 but I couldn't click at all in TSW were I can half ass it in GW2 click every now and then.  

 

Hopefully this game be everything we are hoping for as far as user generated content.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1814

"I shall take your position into consideration"

11/01/12 8:56:38 AM#32
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by tom_gore

You have 30 different abilities, of which maybe 2-3 are applicable in any given moment and even then, only one of them is the one you should use.

 2-3?

Ever played WoW PVP?

I play rogue...I get engaged as a warrior, I can go with:

Blind to CC, Dismantle to disable his skills and fight, Vanish + sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid dmg, CoS to reduce dmg, Shadow dance + cheap shot to CC and fight, Vanish + SAP, Vanish + cheap shot, Shadowstep + backstab, vanish + shadowstep + ambush / cheap shot, gouge,... these are just moves I can think of immediately, there are many more moves you can make. Many skills do provide you with variety of actions you can take...

Imagine you have 6 skills...what would you do  

Yeah I've played WoW PvP, as a rogue nevertheless. I have a Logitech G13 and Razer Naga and I was still running out of buttons trying to map everything.

But most of the abilities are copies of each other, just on different cooldowns or having a tiny bit different effect. Of course making those abilities like this makes it "harder" because the player needs to memorize and map more keys. But it still is not complexity unless by complexity you mean making it complex to have enough keys or having to macro a lot of abilities. There is no more depth in WoW combat than for example GW2. It's all an illusion.

No MMO today has 6 skills. GW2 has at least 11 on any character + 5 more with weapon swap. Many characters have even more.

My point is: You can make a very complex combat with just 10 slots on the hotbar. Giving the player 30 skills he can equip on the screen all at once is just a lazy way of adding complexity and I'm glad games are moving away from that model.

 

 The fact that you can bind all those abilities to your mouse (more or less, those that dont fit, you can bind around your typical WASD movement keys) makes it even more easy and natural to utilize the large amount of skills you have. You do not need to stand in place and watch bar like some people suggest, you are just running around and easily use plenty of skills in action.

I agree that with growing age of WoW, the differences between the abilities are diminishing. However, I do not think that the complexity is in having to memorize the bindings, you memorize all skills bound in relatively short time. I can use any of my useful skills in 0.X second. The complexity that I see in that is, that at a given moment you can make a strategic decision which of the many skills you have, you actually decide to use. I do not see how it is an illusion, I think it enhances strategic thinking and the strategic element of the fight. If I had 100 skills of which 80 would be useful in a given time, I would have more options to choose from, thus the strategic element is enhanced. You also need to count with the fact that your enemy also has huge number of actions they can take.

That is my subjective perception and as I mentioned, I cant really see myself playing a game with few skills which you can use at a given time. I think I would get bored quite soon.

Maybe you can make complex combat with just 10 slots on the hotbar, I just have not met an MMO that achieved something like that.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7171

11/01/12 9:00:43 AM#33
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by ignore_me
Watched the latest bit on Neverwinter. Is it just me, or do we lose hotbar buttons with each new MMO? Pretty soon there will just be one button to press called "Attack"

I personally love limited hotbar design.  Its elegant and anything more then 8 abilities is getting in to the realm of to many abilities.  The great thing about limited hotbars + action combat is that your normally more attuned to situational awareness instead of doing a rotation.  The thing that TSW got wrong with their limited botbar setup is they implemented it into a stand still and fight MMO.  In games like NW, GW2, and TESO the action is all about movement and keeping your eye on the action rather on that perfect rotation i.e. WoW style.

I think this is where you're going with that --->            This will be the next evolution of the hot-bar. Forget having choices of abilities, items and consumables to equip, macros, etc. This will not task your short term memory, nor will it make you decide how you will set up your character's abilities. Die complexity! Die! 

Being facetious does not become you.

 

Of course that isn't what I mean but it appears you like things like below.  Having that many abilities is silly, archaic and downright ugly.  It takes up so much of the view and it makes you play the hotbar instead of the game.

 

 

 

 

Good players don't look at the hotbars...

 

You see where igmore_me said, "This will not task your short term memory,"? This is what he was aluding too. Bad players stare at their bar and stand in fire. Good players never have to look at their hotbars. They keep their eys oon the encounter.

PvP at launch? Damnit how much will premium cost me? 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  saurus123

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 505

11/01/12 9:00:55 AM#34

the maps creator

we will see lots of same stuff becouse its copy and paste

  FoxyShoxzy

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 119

11/01/12 9:01:05 AM#35
Originally posted by Zylaxx

Being facetious does not become you.

 

Of course that isn't what I mean but it appears you like things like below.  Having that many abilities is silly, archaic and downright ugly.  It takes up so much of the view and it makes you play the hotbar instead of the game.

 

 

 

 

 

That's a highly exaggerated example. Just a quick glance tells me there are many duplicated abilities on those bars, as well as things like professions, teleports, etc. You don't need every spell you can cast accessible at every moment.

 

Here is what I raid endgame as Ret with. Prot has 2 more buttons on the top bar. Things I don't use often are neatly hidden away; no sidebars.

 

And the people saying you can play with castsequence macros are simply bad. Pretty much every class has priority queues now, simple rotations don't cut it. I use macros for mouseover functionality on most of my abilities, or to activate self-buffs. No castsequence required.

 

Using an ugly-as-hell custom user UI doesn't really make your case aganst games with more than 6-8 abilities.

 


  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7698

Logic be damned!

11/01/12 9:18:29 AM#36

Wow way to keep this thread entirely off topic about hotbars rather than the Foundry.

Looks pretty awesome to me.

Custom maps, custom decoration, custom (looking anyway) mobs in encounters...

Looking great.

I hope they add in some ability to control environmental lighting, and there is enough customization in the encounters to say stack them for mob density, create waves/gauntlets, boss encounters, etc.

But I for one am looking very forward to creating episodic content.

That is, of course, assuming the combat and progression is to my liking.

(And the business/payment model isn't offensive.)

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

11/01/12 10:36:09 AM#37

Mea culpa on the derail. Apologies.

I do think that the idea of having such a large portion of the game be about player made content is a great idea. I just wish they could also have an in-depth character building process that flows out to the UI as well (character building that is varied and complex and having that extend to abilities that the player can tailor). I'm actually a fan of more action-based combat, I just don't like the restriction of controls down to a few buttons.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  User Deleted
 
OP  11/01/12 12:20:42 PM#38
Originally posted by BadSpock

Wow way to keep this thread entirely off topic about hotbars rather than the Foundry.

Looks pretty awesome to me.

Custom maps, custom decoration, custom (looking anyway) mobs in encounters...

Looking great.

I hope they add in some ability to control environmental lighting, and there is enough customization in the encounters to say stack them for mob density, create waves/gauntlets, boss encounters, etc.

But I for one am looking very forward to creating episodic content.

That is, of course, assuming the combat and progression is to my liking.

(And the business/payment model isn't offensive.)

Thanks Spock, this was the intent of my post.  As a fan of a certain other game and coming up on full 100% PvE map completion, I have been weary of replayability and as such I was thinking of ways to freshen up what I consider the defining issue in themepark MMO's.  I had remembered I favorited this Foundry video when it was released but never gotten around to watching it.  After seeing it I was completely blown away with the limited possibilities in player created content and it never occured to me that this style of content could be used to keep PvE fresh.  As a player who enjoys PvE the most, and the best aspects of PvE to me is small group events what better way to keep a game fresh then to allow users to make dungeons and events.  To me this Foundry system opens up unlimited possibilities and should in theory do awaqy with my biggest issue with the modern MMO, no endgame.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/16/12 6:14:00 AM#39
Posted by Zylaxx on 11/01/12 at 2:55:29 AM

[User Deleted]

Well, that's always fun.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Psyentist

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 49

11/17/12 6:45:36 PM#40
Originally posted by ignore_me

I do think that the idea of having such a large portion of the game be about player made content is a great idea...

I just wish they could also have an in-depth character building process that flows out to the UI as well (character building that is varied and complex and having that extend to abilities that the player can tailor).

Well, taking my cues from what Cryptic has done with STO, Foundry missions are not a large portion of the game at all, but rather a fun and interesting aside from a standard quest progression aswell as a huge draw for many would be writers, designers, and artists. D&D's modules system of short, independant adventures feeds into this sort of model. We're not talking about a player controlled environment here, if it emulates the STO foundry it will be instance-based and will not (cannot) offer unique rewards.  Of course endgame user content could open up new doors, but frankly the STO Foundry offers alternatives to the standard game progression by giving you the option to delve into player content; it doesnt drive the narrative.

As for in depth character creation; its D&D.  Hopefully they just don't go the weird DDO route and oversimplify Prestige classes while still leaving new players completely lost. DDO wasted a lot of people's time building characters they had fun grinding but then became completely worthless at endgame.  All I can say is, find a build before you get too into it.

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