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Defiance Forum » General Discussion » Why the Defiance hate?

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224 posts found
  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

4/24/13 6:49:28 AM#161
Originally posted by JeroKane

 Ah come on! You really cannot be that naive now do you?

As that is EXACTLY what developers need to have in mind from day one! That people will try to hack your game!

According to your philosophy... why would we even need a password on our account? Why not just login without a password?

Why  have any security messures at all right? If developers are not responsible and should ignore hackers.

Just remove firewalls too.... it will sertainly improve latency and performance.

/facepalm

Rubbish, some developers have hacks in-built into the game to make it easier for them to develop, or test.  Whether they chose to leave things in after development is sometimes by accident and other times on purpose. 

 

Again if you see somebody cheating report them.  People decide to break the rules, it's a conscious decision to hack a config file and mess around with the internals of the game.  Like jailbreaking an iPhone or something, they will be in breach of any user agreement they agreed to.  You can only put so much into place to deter people, more often than not it's better to see what they do and then address the problem.

 

Account security and all the relevant measures to safeguard an account is a different matter entirely.
  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5352

4/24/13 6:59:45 AM#162
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by JeroKane

 Ah come on! You really cannot be that naive now do you?

As that is EXACTLY what developers need to have in mind from day one! That people will try to hack your game!

According to your philosophy... why would we even need a password on our account? Why not just login without a password?

Why  have any security messures at all right? If developers are not responsible and should ignore hackers.

Just remove firewalls too.... it will sertainly improve latency and performance.

/facepalm

Rubbish, some developers have hacks in-built into the game to make it easier for them to develop, or test.  Whether they chose to leave things in after development is sometimes by accident and other times on purpose. 

 

Again if you see somebody cheating report them.  People decide to break the rules, it's a conscious decision to hack a config file and mess around with the internals of the game.  Like jailbreaking an iPhone or something, they will be in breach of any user agreement they agreed to.  You can only put so much into place to deter people, more often than not it's better to see what they do and then address the problem.

 

Account security and all the relevant measures to safeguard an account is a different matter entirely.

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

  thark

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1110

4/24/13 7:19:11 AM#163
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by JeroKane

 Ah come on! You really cannot be that naive now do you?

As that is EXACTLY what developers need to have in mind from day one! That people will try to hack your game!

According to your philosophy... why would we even need a password on our account? Why not just login without a password?

Why  have any security messures at all right? If developers are not responsible and should ignore hackers.

Just remove firewalls too.... it will sertainly improve latency and performance.

/facepalm

Rubbish, some developers have hacks in-built into the game to make it easier for them to develop, or test.  Whether they chose to leave things in after development is sometimes by accident and other times on purpose. 

 

Again if you see somebody cheating report them.  People decide to break the rules, it's a conscious decision to hack a config file and mess around with the internals of the game.  Like jailbreaking an iPhone or something, they will be in breach of any user agreement they agreed to.  You can only put so much into place to deter people, more often than not it's better to see what they do and then address the problem.

 

Account security and all the relevant measures to safeguard an account is a different matter entirely.

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

 You certainly give the impression to know alot in this is issue..If all you say in this matter really is true..Can you give some solid links to these statements..?

I haven't yet stubled into any odd stuff, sure I see scores in minigames that can't be nothing but some cheats...Or am I really that bad, maybe lol

But ...Im rather sure that if cheating is so rambart as you say , I woud not be be among the highest scoring players in most ARKFALLS I do..

I haven't noticed anything foul going on..But sure I do not really know where to look either.. PvP is probably the highest risk for cheaters, I did a few matches earned a few kills...and GOT killed lots of times, but thats also normal because I suck at PvP shooters..

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5352

4/24/13 7:30:36 AM#164
Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by JeroKane

 Ah come on! You really cannot be that naive now do you?

As that is EXACTLY what developers need to have in mind from day one! That people will try to hack your game!

According to your philosophy... why would we even need a password on our account? Why not just login without a password?

Why  have any security messures at all right? If developers are not responsible and should ignore hackers.

Just remove firewalls too.... it will sertainly improve latency and performance.

/facepalm

Rubbish, some developers have hacks in-built into the game to make it easier for them to develop, or test.  Whether they chose to leave things in after development is sometimes by accident and other times on purpose. 

 

Again if you see somebody cheating report them.  People decide to break the rules, it's a conscious decision to hack a config file and mess around with the internals of the game.  Like jailbreaking an iPhone or something, they will be in breach of any user agreement they agreed to.  You can only put so much into place to deter people, more often than not it's better to see what they do and then address the problem.

 

Account security and all the relevant measures to safeguard an account is a different matter entirely.

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

 You certainly give the impression to know alot in this is issue..If all you say in this matter really is true..Can you give some solid links to these statements..?

I haven't yet stubled into any odd stuff, sure I see scores in minigames that can't be nothing but some cheats...Or am I really that bad, maybe lol

But ...Im rather sure that if cheating is so rambart as you say , I woud not be be among the highest scoring players in most ARKFALLS I do..

I haven't noticed anything foul going on..But sure I do not really know where to look either.. PvP is probably the highest risk for cheaters, I did a few matches earned a few kills...and GOT killed lots of times, but thats also normal because I suck at PvP shooters..

 Currently there is a notorious dutch guild very active in Shadow Wars on the EU PC server. They have been hacking for a long time now, been reported and no action has been taken so far.

The Arkfall results are completely messed up and inaccurate. TRION has already admitted that. People have been complaing high and low for weeks now, in how they participated in an entire Arkfall event and got no damage contribution in the results.

When it comes to hacking in PVE, people are one shotting bosses, mini bosses and mobs in both Arkfalls as in Open world left and right. Driving cars with impossible speeds, etc.

You can also check the Top charts in various pursuits and see impossible scores in the top 3.

It might not be rampant enough yet that "everyone" notices it all the time. But it will become rampant if nothing is been done. And so far TRION seems to ignore the problem with a passion, seeing how fast they have been deleting threads.

In APB (and later APB:Reloaded) hacking wasn't immediately rampant, but when it went unchecked (devs were unable to do anything), word spread and the hacking became a serious problem and pretty much killed the game.

Same will happen with Defiance. At least the PC version. :-/

By now TRION should have come out with an official response, acknowledging the problem and saying they are working on a solution and will start perma banning people!  That would give out a strong message and at least put some fear into most people even attempting to try out one of those cheat engines.

Now they keep silent, delete all the threads about it and give the impression they don't care.

NOT GOOD! /Shrug

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

4/24/13 7:40:13 AM#165
Originally posted by JeroKane

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

I don't think you get it.  Trion isn't in the wrong here, the people that are cheating are in the wrong.  The majority of gamers abide by the rules. You are talking about a minority and if they want to cheat that is up to them.  But it's not reward without risk.  Just because nothing has happened yet, doesn't mean it won't. 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7637

4/24/13 7:47:38 AM#166
Originally posted by Daranar

I recently bought Defiance on GMG for $33.   Seriously good price, go get it.   Anyway, I just started playing this morning until server update right now.   I really don't understand all the hate against the game.    This is seriously a very good enjoyable game.   I'm sure as with ANY themepark, it will run out of content and possibly fast.   However, they are saying there will be some serious DLC action coming.   But other than that, why hate?   To me it is a great mix between Borderlands and Gears of War in an MMO.   

Yes, it is a console/PC game and so the social aspect is significantly diminished from other PC-Only MMOs.   Most people you try to chat to, don't chat back (either they are dills or on an XBOX or PS3).   But it is clearly a different kind of game, one that I am so far enjoying emensly.  I think most people's problem is they went into it with an expectation in mind instead of going into to have some serious fun!   Recognize what it is.  It's not a competitor with Call of Duty, nor with World of Warcraft.   It is really a fairly unique game and so far a good bit of emphasis on exploration.   I for one am having a great time cruisin in my roller finding little enemy camps and trackin down those side-missions.   Plus with the T.V. show, they really hit my lore bone.   Not only can you get into the lore in-game (with the story missions it really helps dive in) but also on the TV show.  I love a game I can really get into the world of and this is definately one of em.

People seriously need to stop hating on games and go into a game with a fresh state of mind, one that is ready for fun and adventure.   Remember when gamers used to be open to new worlds?   Thriving on new stories?  And always seeking fun and adventure in every new game?    Man, how we have become jaded and snobby.

Seriously tho for $33, stop reading idiots reviews (like mine) and go try it for yourself WITH an open mind and eagerness to explore a new earth.   Whatever you do, don't go into it expecting the best MMORPG of all time (that game died when Sony released Planes of Power for EQ :P )   but do go in expecting to explore and have fun shooting up random crap :)

 

  thark

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1110

4/24/13 7:53:36 AM#167
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by JeroKane

 Ah come on! You really cannot be that naive now do you?

As that is EXACTLY what developers need to have in mind from day one! That people will try to hack your game!

According to your philosophy... why would we even need a password on our account? Why not just login without a password?

Why  have any security messures at all right? If developers are not responsible and should ignore hackers.

Just remove firewalls too.... it will sertainly improve latency and performance.

/facepalm

Rubbish, some developers have hacks in-built into the game to make it easier for them to develop, or test.  Whether they chose to leave things in after development is sometimes by accident and other times on purpose. 

 

Again if you see somebody cheating report them.  People decide to break the rules, it's a conscious decision to hack a config file and mess around with the internals of the game.  Like jailbreaking an iPhone or something, they will be in breach of any user agreement they agreed to.  You can only put so much into place to deter people, more often than not it's better to see what they do and then address the problem.

 

Account security and all the relevant measures to safeguard an account is a different matter entirely.

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

 You certainly give the impression to know alot in this is issue..If all you say in this matter really is true..Can you give some solid links to these statements..?

I haven't yet stubled into any odd stuff, sure I see scores in minigames that can't be nothing but some cheats...Or am I really that bad, maybe lol

But ...Im rather sure that if cheating is so rambart as you say , I woud not be be among the highest scoring players in most ARKFALLS I do..

I haven't noticed anything foul going on..But sure I do not really know where to look either.. PvP is probably the highest risk for cheaters, I did a few matches earned a few kills...and GOT killed lots of times, but thats also normal because I suck at PvP shooters..

 Currently there is a notorious dutch guild very active in Shadow Wars on the EU PC server. They have been hacking for a long time now, been reported and no action has been taken so far.

The Arkfall results are completely messed up and inaccurate. TRION has already admitted that. People have been complaing high and low for weeks now, in how they participated in an entire Arkfall event and got no damage contribution in the results.

When it comes to hacking in PVE, people are one shotting bosses, mini bosses and mobs in both Arkfalls as in Open world left and right. Driving cars with impossible speeds, etc.

You can also check the Top charts in various pursuits and see impossible scores in the top 3.

It might not be rampant enough yet that "everyone" notices it all the time. But it will become rampant if nothing is been done. And so far TRION seems to ignore the problem with a passion, seeing how fast they have been deleting threads.

In APB (and later APB:Reloaded) hacking wasn't immediately rampant, but when it went unchecked (devs were unable to do anything), word spread and the hacking became a serious problem and pretty much killed the game.

Same will happen with Defiance. At least the PC version. :-/

By now TRION should have come out with an official response, acknowledging the problem and saying they are working on a solution and will start perma banning people!  That would give out a strong message and at least put some fear into most people even attempting to try out one of those cheat engines.

Now they keep silent, delete all the threads about it and give the impression they don't care.

NOT GOOD! /Shrug

 The 0 damage in arkfalls and co-ops  is due to a bug with cluster granades, unequip those and you will get your damage back...My wife had this problem..:)

What is the name of this notorious dutch guild ?

Haven't seen anyone that oneshots mini bosses, but you have ?

The Impossible scores in minigames..yes I have seen them...:) Doesnt needlessly have to be "hacks" it can be glitches exploits and other bugs aswell, I and my wife have had several occasions of minigames where the gun you were suppose to use emptied =game over, but the game continued , the chicken shooting for an example..My wife shot this one with a machine gun ;).

It sounds awfully easy for you to say that TRION should make statements of "perma" bans , and start banning people left and right..Should my wife be banned because she shot chickens with her own weapon ?

But ..I hate cheating, and If there is cheaters I sure as hell don't want them around..But all this can't be as easy as you say, othervise they would have done something already..

And..the engine, the choice of engine ..during development..Im sure this is a super hard choice for the dev's when making their game.. Right now they have a fluid engine that works rather well with what it's suppose to be doing, I think If they have chosen a more secure engine the performance would not be the same, Only guessing here ofcourse :)

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5352

4/24/13 7:54:47 AM#168
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by JeroKane

 You really do not get it do you?

Everything is just loaded into plain memory on the client! Cheat engines can just read all the values straight from memory and alter them in realtime! It's not even hashed or encrypted!

They don't even have to touch any of the gamefiles AT ALL! And so bypass file integrity checks completely, if they have even bothered with those either.

TRION has given hacking ZERO thought at all!  There are no client checks. There are no server checks. Nothing!

No one has been banned. This has been going on since day 1 for over 3 weeks! People that were hacking on day 1 are still hacking today!

In fact, they most likely cannot even proof hacking, when everything is handled clientside and thus no way to ban them even. Because they currently can't even display the correct results of Arkfall events and PVP matches. Let alone the ability to find proof of hacking. /Shrug

There has been no word from TRION! No official response on the situation! All they have done is delete all threads like mad to wipe it under the rug.

They haven't even given any explanation nor appology for last saturday 9 hour downtime that caused another rollback of several hours, with people losing progression, items... even stuff bought with "real" money in the cash shop!

I have currently no idea what is going on with TRION.... but communication has pretty much stopped since over a week ago.

No more blog posts.... nothing. Just the ocasional post by Sledge or Erik regarding maintenance. That's it.

 

I don't think you get it.  Trion isn't in the wrong here, the people that are cheating are in the wrong.  The majority of gamers abide by the rules. You are talking about a minority and if they want to cheat that is up to them.  But it's not reward without risk.  Just because nothing has happened yet, doesn't mean it won't. 

 TRION is definetely in the wrong here! We do not live in a perfect world you think we are living in!

Hacking is and always has been an issue. Especially nowadays! So as developer you have to take that into account!

What TRION did with DEFIANCE was just blatantly ignorant. They didn't even put up a challenge for the hackers.

The least they could have done is keep critical data like damage, shield, powers, speed on the server with basic integrity checks.

And IF they somehow HAVE to have it clientside, then at least perform control checks on the server and set maximum values.

You know no weapon should be able to do 1 million damage per shot.

You know a shield should not be able to have 1 million hit points and/or instant recharge or whatever.

You know each weapon has a maximum range and doesn't do max damage on sniper distances.

You know a character or vehicle can drive a maximum set speed and not 10 times faster.

This is just basic stuff!  It's totally retarded hackers are able to pull off the above with hardly any effort.

The above should NOT be possible AT ALL in an Online Multiplayer game!

Stuff like aimbots are a different matter and harder to deal with, as hit detection is always clientside. So I could give them some slack there. Completely different matter and much less of an issue, then all the stuff above.

  Whitebeards

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 823

4/24/13 7:59:01 AM#169

Every MMO has hackers and cheaters but Trion handed it to these kind of people on silver platter by keeping weapon damage on client side. Who the hell does that in a shooter? such a rookie move by Trion.

 

  McGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/05
Posts: 1035

"Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" -Master Yoda

4/24/13 8:01:03 AM#170

Daranar, get used to those "server updates" because Trion has crappy servers and will repeatedly go down several times every week. Not only do they have terrible servers, there are several bugs in the game that are breaking the game progression, yet the GMs have literally said that there is no timeframe, if ever, that they will be fixed.

The game also is plagued with a lot of hackers and people using exploits to an insane degree. Not every MMO is plagued with hackers and I suggest to those who claim otherwise to try more than a couple MMOs before claiming that.

The problem in Defiance is that the code is so broken that like another poster mentioned, Trion handed the game to them on a silver platter. Even though Trion was warned, they still opted to use cheap software such as Nguard and Punk Buster to try to protect the game against hackers even though those programs have NEVER prevented hackers in any MMO they have been associated with. APB for example uses those programs and they are plagued with aimbots to this day.

Some people may enjoy throwing money at a game that rolls back levels earned and constantly crashing servers, I don't. I originally preordered and bought the Season Pass DLC. But after all the above happened, Steam gave me a full refund on it all and apologized.

  BrucyBonus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 224

4/24/13 8:02:06 AM#171
Originally posted by Whitebeards

Every MMO has hackers and cheaters but Trion handed it to these kind of people on silver platter by keeping weapon damage on client side. Who the hell does that in a shooter? such a rookie move by Trion.

 

I have to agree, keeping the damage client side was a monumentally stupid decision.  Why have you got a picture of a multiple-amputee with her face stuck in a wall? 

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

4/24/13 8:32:47 AM#172
Originally posted by JeroKane

 TRION is definetely in the wrong here! We do not live in a perfect world you think we are living in!

Hacking is and always has been an issue. Especially nowadays! So as developer you have to take that into account!

What TRION did with DEFIANCE was just blatantly ignorant. They didn't even put up a challenge for the hackers.

The least they could have done is keep critical data like damage, shield, powers, speed on the server with basic integrity checks.

And IF they somehow HAVE to have it clientside, then at least perform control checks on the server and set maximum values.

You know no weapon should be able to do 1 million damage per shot.

You know a shield should not be able to have 1 million hit points and/or instant recharge or whatever.

You know each weapon has a maximum range and doesn't do max damage on sniper distances.

You know a character or vehicle can drive a maximum set speed and not 10 times faster.

This is just basic stuff!  It's totally retarded hackers are able to pull off the above with hardly any effort.

The above should NOT be possible AT ALL in an Online Multiplayer game!

Stuff like aimbots are a different matter and harder to deal with, as hit detection is always clientside. So I could give them some slack there. Completely different matter and much less of an issue, then all the stuff above.

So what you would blame a sporting officiating body if an athlete takes performance enhancing drugs? It's their fault for not testing everybody on a regular basis.   That's somewhat of a backwards view.  If the rules state no drugs and an athlete takes drugs,  whether or not they are ever caught the athlete is in the wrong. 

 

Trion isn't in the wrong here. Just because it might be easy to hack or they have left a backdoor wide open. It's not their fault people decide to cheat.  People that cheat are in the minority, the majority of gamers do not cheat.  Just because there is an open invitation doesn't mean for one minute that most gamers would ever compromise their integrity.   Making it easy or hard for somebody is not the issue. If you cheat your moral compass is skewed.

 

 

  Whitebeards

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 823

4/24/13 9:20:33 AM#173
Originally posted by fallenlords


 

So what you would blame a sporting officiating body if an athlete takes performance enhancing drugs? It's their fault for not testing everybody on a regular basis.   That's somewhat of a backwards view.  If the rules state no drugs and an athlete takes drugs,  whether or not they are ever caught the athlete is in the wrong. 

 

Trion isn't in the wrong here. Just because it might be easy to hack or they have left a backdoor wide open. It's not their fault people decide to cheat.  People that cheat are in the minority, the majority of gamers do not cheat.  Just because there is an open invitation doesn't mean for one minute that most gamers would ever compromise their integrity.   Making it easy or hard for somebody is not the issue. If you cheat your moral compass is skewed.

 

 

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

4/24/13 10:08:41 AM#174
Originally posted by Whitebeards
Originally posted by fallenlords


 

So what you would blame a sporting officiating body if an athlete takes performance enhancing drugs? It's their fault for not testing everybody on a regular basis.   That's somewhat of a backwards view.  If the rules state no drugs and an athlete takes drugs,  whether or not they are ever caught the athlete is in the wrong. 

 

Trion isn't in the wrong here. Just because it might be easy to hack or they have left a backdoor wide open. It's not their fault people decide to cheat.  People that cheat are in the minority, the majority of gamers do not cheat.  Just because there is an open invitation doesn't mean for one minute that most gamers would ever compromise their integrity.   Making it easy or hard for somebody is not the issue. If you cheat your moral compass is skewed.

 

 

Another mountain out of molehill, for the people that seem to want to pick fault with this game at every level.  You want to reproach the developer for an occurrence that happens in nearly ever online game at some point.  When the people you need to looking at are the cheats themselves, not the developer. They have free will, they are not being forced to cheat.

  Whitebeards

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 823

4/24/13 10:41:50 AM#175
Originally posted by fallenlords
 

Another mountain out of molehill, for the people that seem to want to pick fault with this game at every level.  You want to reproach the developer for an occurrence that happens in nearly ever online game at some point.  When the people you need to looking at are the cheats themselves, not the developer. They have free will, they are not being forced to cheat.

Don't know what levels you are talking about but sorry you can play white knight till end of times but Trion screwed up this one by keeping weapon damage client side. We don't live in some idle world where people don't exploit and cheat. That is why devs need to do their part.

I guess you also gave SOE a free pass when large number of accounts and credit card info were stolen fromr them 2 years ago? because obviously they had no responsbility to strengthen security from their own side.

You assume that only because Trion acted like a complete rookie in designing the game that means people are not taking into account action of cheaters.

Both are responsible....you are the only one giving free pass to Trion here.

  Laromuss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 331

4/24/13 11:20:40 AM#176

Even though I've seen a couple of cheater each of them reported and never seen again, the game is not based on a competitive model thus it really doesn't ruin the game to the degree it does to other TPS out there which are heavily reliant on pvp etc.  The worst case in pve is the cheater kills an arkfall faster for you, sure you feel that you got cheated by not actually killing the final boss spawn but honestly you are relieved sometimes cause some of them are bugged, some take way too long to complete when there aren't enough players etc.  In the case of PVP, which isn't the central focus the cheater quickly gets bored if he is one shotting players cause soon enough no one joins his que of pvp.  As for shadow wars the same applies and its big enough to avoid such cheaters and report as well.   I think the key aspect should be players are reporting these issues but to say cheating is ruining Defiance is over exaggerating when the world is quite large and the events are many and varying.  

Either way it's a great game fun to play around in, play around with weapons etc, different builds and ego combinations and the missions are darn fun even with a random group of players.  I'm sure Trion is addressing the issue as best as possible but honestly when you think about it all the cheaters want is attention and watching them cheat on youtube, twitch tv only helps promote cheating, encourage them etc.  So stop watching them and soon they'll stop broadcaasting it/cheat.  

  User Deleted
4/24/13 12:28:34 PM#177
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by thark
 

 Well, I sort of agree with you here..But only to some degree, since whatever they do there will always be ways to cheat anyway

The hackers will NOT go away easily..and NOT easily stopped ..

Someome will ALWAYS try to cheat, either with hacks or exploits or even built in cheat codes (not in MMO's hopefully) they will also use guides, hints and other spoiler sites to get an ADVANTAGE.

The problem here is naturally the "gamers" that feels the need to prove themselvs wthout actually proving anything,,

The need to win is strong, without it we would not even TRY to cheat during the olympics and  risk  jail and complete bans from the sport you love..

 

 

 Ofcourse people will always try to find ways to hack.

But in case of DEFIANCE, TRION has made it EXTREMELY easy for them! It's just basically an open invite for hacking!

They don't even need to hack the client files, because everything is just loaded in plain memory. So they can just adjust the values realtime in memory! Even, if there were client file integrity checks in place, they can bypass those completely.

Critical stuff like damage, speed, shield, powers, etc should be handled server side with checks in place. At least hackers won't be able to get around that anymore. Which is the critical part of the game.

Hacks like aimbots, wall/terrain visibility hacks are harder to detect, but can still be countered by client integrity checks.

It just shows TRION's engine they used for DEFIANCE is just utter crap and them being forced to put everything client side to make the game even work. And yet they still have trouble keeping the servers performing and stable. /shrug

I have said it before. With the budget they had, they should just have licensed a decent engine, like Unreal Engine or Crytek.

Fully optimised for Online FPS games, with build-in support for ALL platforms! Basic anti-cheat messures in place, so less worry about hacks, etc.

Sure it would have cut in their initial profits, but at least they would have a decent, stable and good performing game with less bugs and issues, working chat system.

Longterm it would have paid off for them.  Now it's slowly turning into a complete dissaster for them (at least for PC platform) and I just can't see how they can get out of it.

The game is now live! First impressions are key! It will be too expensive and too much work to overhaul the entire game and move all this stuff from client to server.

They would have to redesign the entire server infrastructure to cope with the extra processing load.

It's just a shame! Moreso a HUGE dissapointment, as I had expected better from TRION.

I mean.... after the whole hacking debacle with All Points Bulletin (twice even with the relaunch!). You would have thought it had raised RED flags to other developers to NOT make these same mistakes again!

/shrug

I have been playing since beta and not yet I have come across one of these so called hackers. I think the whole hacking thing is just yet anouther way to attempt to bring Trion down. If you say the sky is pink and you say it enough times people may start to belive you. After all its the internet and every thing is true on the internet. If hacking was soooooooo bad I dont I see every other player hacked??? Trust me I am a MMO vet I can spot hackers a mile away and yet to come across any in Defiance.

  User Deleted
4/24/13 12:31:49 PM#178
Originally posted by Laross

Even though I've seen a couple of cheater each of them reported and never seen again, the game is not based on a competitive model thus it really doesn't ruin the game to the degree it does to other TPS out there which are heavily reliant on pvp etc.  The worst case in pve is the cheater kills an arkfall faster for you, sure you feel that you got cheated by not actually killing the final boss spawn but honestly you are relieved sometimes cause some of them are bugged, some take way too long to complete when there aren't enough players etc.  In the case of PVP, which isn't the central focus the cheater quickly gets bored if he is one shotting players cause soon enough no one joins his que of pvp.  As for shadow wars the same applies and its big enough to avoid such cheaters and report as well.   I think the key aspect should be players are reporting these issues but to say cheating is ruining Defiance is over exaggerating when the world is quite large and the events are many and varying.  

Either way it's a great game fun to play around in, play around with weapons etc, different builds and ego combinations and the missions are darn fun even with a random group of players.  I'm sure Trion is addressing the issue as best as possible but honestly when you think about it all the cheaters want is attention and watching them cheat on youtube, twitch tv only helps promote cheating, encourage them etc.  So stop watching them and soon they'll stop broadcaasting it/cheat.  

I have never seen any cheater or hackers. People are trying very very hard to discredit trion to the nth degree and its not working. but you are soooo very right all they want is attention. Look at me I can cheat. Reminds me of little boys starving for attention of their peers. To bad these hackes dont realize we dont care.

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5352

4/24/13 12:33:50 PM#179
Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by thark
 

 Well, I sort of agree with you here..But only to some degree, since whatever they do there will always be ways to cheat anyway

The hackers will NOT go away easily..and NOT easily stopped ..

Someome will ALWAYS try to cheat, either with hacks or exploits or even built in cheat codes (not in MMO's hopefully) they will also use guides, hints and other spoiler sites to get an ADVANTAGE.

The problem here is naturally the "gamers" that feels the need to prove themselvs wthout actually proving anything,,

The need to win is strong, without it we would not even TRY to cheat during the olympics and  risk  jail and complete bans from the sport you love..

 

 

 Ofcourse people will always try to find ways to hack.

But in case of DEFIANCE, TRION has made it EXTREMELY easy for them! It's just basically an open invite for hacking!

They don't even need to hack the client files, because everything is just loaded in plain memory. So they can just adjust the values realtime in memory! Even, if there were client file integrity checks in place, they can bypass those completely.

Critical stuff like damage, speed, shield, powers, etc should be handled server side with checks in place. At least hackers won't be able to get around that anymore. Which is the critical part of the game.

Hacks like aimbots, wall/terrain visibility hacks are harder to detect, but can still be countered by client integrity checks.

It just shows TRION's engine they used for DEFIANCE is just utter crap and them being forced to put everything client side to make the game even work. And yet they still have trouble keeping the servers performing and stable. /shrug

I have said it before. With the budget they had, they should just have licensed a decent engine, like Unreal Engine or Crytek.

Fully optimised for Online FPS games, with build-in support for ALL platforms! Basic anti-cheat messures in place, so less worry about hacks, etc.

Sure it would have cut in their initial profits, but at least they would have a decent, stable and good performing game with less bugs and issues, working chat system.

Longterm it would have paid off for them.  Now it's slowly turning into a complete dissaster for them (at least for PC platform) and I just can't see how they can get out of it.

The game is now live! First impressions are key! It will be too expensive and too much work to overhaul the entire game and move all this stuff from client to server.

They would have to redesign the entire server infrastructure to cope with the extra processing load.

It's just a shame! Moreso a HUGE dissapointment, as I had expected better from TRION.

I mean.... after the whole hacking debacle with All Points Bulletin (twice even with the relaunch!). You would have thought it had raised RED flags to other developers to NOT make these same mistakes again!

/shrug

I have been playing since beta and not yet I have come across one of these so called hackers. I think the whole hacking thing is just yet anouther way to attempt to bring Trion down. If you say the sky is pink and you say it enough times people may start to belive you. After all its the internet and every thing is true on the internet. If hacking was soooooooo bad I dont I see every other player hacked??? Trust me I am a MMO vet I can spot hackers a mile away and yet to come across any in Defiance.

 If hacking wasn't an issue, then Twitch tv wasn't working so hard removing videos and blocking accounts. Videos showing off how ridiculously easy it is to hack DEFIANCE.

If hacking wasn't an issue, then TRION wouldn't be acting like the gestappo on the forums and delete threads about it left and right!

I am suprised the current thread is still up and running and not deleted yet, seeing how quick they were with all the other threads. I guess it's because it doesn't contain the word hack in the thread title and hasn't raised a flag yet. /shrug

No one is trying to discredit TRION. They already have done a marvelous jobs at that themselves, with the crappy state they released the game in! With no functional chat system, items dissapearing from inventory, skills resetting back to 1 when reaching max level in them, servers crashing, 9 hour downtimes with rollbacks and so on.

So really.... currently TRION doesn't need us at all to discredit themselves.

  User Deleted
4/24/13 12:37:33 PM#180
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by thark
 

 Well, I sort of agree with you here..But only to some degree, since whatever they do there will always be ways to cheat anyway

The hackers will NOT go away easily..and NOT easily stopped ..

Someome will ALWAYS try to cheat, either with hacks or exploits or even built in cheat codes (not in MMO's hopefully) they will also use guides, hints and other spoiler sites to get an ADVANTAGE.

The problem here is naturally the "gamers" that feels the need to prove themselvs wthout actually proving anything,,

The need to win is strong, without it we would not even TRY to cheat during the olympics and  risk  jail and complete bans from the sport you love..

 

 

 Ofcourse people will always try to find ways to hack.

But in case of DEFIANCE, TRION has made it EXTREMELY easy for them! It's just basically an open invite for hacking!

They don't even need to hack the client files, because everything is just loaded in plain memory. So they can just adjust the values realtime in memory! Even, if there were client file integrity checks in place, they can bypass those completely.

Critical stuff like damage, speed, shield, powers, etc should be handled server side with checks in place. At least hackers won't be able to get around that anymore. Which is the critical part of the game.

Hacks like aimbots, wall/terrain visibility hacks are harder to detect, but can still be countered by client integrity checks.

It just shows TRION's engine they used for DEFIANCE is just utter crap and them being forced to put everything client side to make the game even work. And yet they still have trouble keeping the servers performing and stable. /shrug

I have said it before. With the budget they had, they should just have licensed a decent engine, like Unreal Engine or Crytek.

Fully optimised for Online FPS games, with build-in support for ALL platforms! Basic anti-cheat messures in place, so less worry about hacks, etc.

Sure it would have cut in their initial profits, but at least they would have a decent, stable and good performing game with less bugs and issues, working chat system.

Longterm it would have paid off for them.  Now it's slowly turning into a complete dissaster for them (at least for PC platform) and I just can't see how they can get out of it.

The game is now live! First impressions are key! It will be too expensive and too much work to overhaul the entire game and move all this stuff from client to server.

They would have to redesign the entire server infrastructure to cope with the extra processing load.

It's just a shame! Moreso a HUGE dissapointment, as I had expected better from TRION.

I mean.... after the whole hacking debacle with All Points Bulletin (twice even with the relaunch!). You would have thought it had raised RED flags to other developers to NOT make these same mistakes again!

/shrug

I have been playing since beta and not yet I have come across one of these so called hackers. I think the whole hacking thing is just yet anouther way to attempt to bring Trion down. If you say the sky is pink and you say it enough times people may start to belive you. After all its the internet and every thing is true on the internet. If hacking was soooooooo bad I dont I see every other player hacked??? Trust me I am a MMO vet I can spot hackers a mile away and yet to come across any in Defiance.

 If hacking wasn't an issue, then Twitch tv wasn't working so hard removing videos and blocking accounts. Videos showing off how ridiculously easy it is to hack DEFIANCE.

If hacking wasn't an issue, then TRION wouldn't be acting like the gestappo on the forums and delete threads about it left and right!

I am suprised the current thread is still up and running and not deleted yet, seeing how quick they were with all the other threads. I guess it's because it doesn't contain the word hack in the thread title and hasn't raised a flag yet. /shrug

Good grief. Chuck. (Sigh)

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