Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by TUX426

Explain? Links? Proof?

LA wanted SOE to IMPROVE the game...SOE released the CU, then the NGE. LA gave up on SOE at that point - they lost ALL confidence that SOE was capable of improving the game and they turned to Bioware soon after.

If you have ANY evidence to support your claim, please provide it...but you don't. In fact, SOE employees have said just the complete OPPOSITE! They have stated that LA was extremely easy to work with.

You can keep thinking SOE is the 'victim', but to state it as fact is a lie.

 

The Reverse is true....do you have links or proof that Everything in the CU and the NGE was Only the Fault of SOE?

 

No...you don't.

The CURB was needed for Many Reasons....and the Crafting Professions, Politician and Pilot were not the reasons.

LA told SOE to do something that would result in Higher Sub's. SOE went and did what was presumed to be what was needed...RE the NGE.  The Golden ring that LA was chasing was the WoW sub numbers...which everyone that had half a brain knew were not ever possible with any type of Niche Market MMO.

EvE and WoW are anomolies in the MMORPG market.

What it boils down to mister Former SW:G Senator Tux (as I recall) is that SOE isn't the Only Place to put the Blame.

 

LA owns most of it for causing SOE development to F up the game we all loved (regardless of the Era we played it in).

No. The reverse is NOT true. SOE was the DEVELOPER, LA was the license holder.

Google former SOE employee comments on the topic and you'll find the truth...in fact, I believe it was Dundee (Jeff Freeman) here on THIS forum who stated that LA's was GREAT to work with.

Here's MY proof:

“Is it hard to develop a game such SWG with so much interferences from Lucasarts? ”

Lucasarts was the most pleasant IP owner I have ever worked with. Professional, fast, concise, and willing to bend over backwards to make sure we could do what we wanted to do.

Plus, all of the liason’s we had on their end went out of their way to streamline the process.

Very positive relationship all-around.

Lucas Arts may have said to SOE "Hey, what can we do to get more subs?" or "Do what you need to to increase subs", but that does NOT place the blame for things like "zombies" (SOE admitted idea), flying pink Ewoks with purple hearts or 8+ years of unaddressed bugs at the feet of Lucas Arts. LA's should have been disappointed in the games subscription numbers - SOE should have been too...but SOE has the ultimate blame for ALL of SWGs failures because THEY controlled it ALL.

SOE lied about NUMEROUS things over the years mate. SOE acted slow, SOE didn't care, SOE failed to listen to the community, SOE told us "reading wasn't fun", SOE told us we wanted to "kill, loot, repeat", SOE pulled Devs off SWG to go work on other games (DCUO), SOE is the company that was willing to give up all their current customers for the ones they didn't have (W0Ws)...Lucas Arts made very few comments re the game over the 8+ years.

Star Wars is NOT "niche"...Star Wars is the most successful IP of ALL TIME! Star Wars sells by name alone (proof being episodes 1-3 :P ) .

You're free to believe SOE is great and all good mate...but their record speaks for itself.

And if anyone remembers... Freeman was here actually it was me that pulled him here.   Then Smedley too.. I posted emails here and he while sure hated it admited they were true.

But this is all old news... It was called a mistake and there you have it.    I caught so much Hell for all the things I posted you have no idea.    NGErs had a hard time swallowing how bad the game was and how much of a mistake it was.   In the end.. they pretty much now know more and how this would end.

I for one are glad the game is going away... it should have in the first two months of the NGE.. but people got Jedi... lol so they were happy I guess.   Most of us left and lets face it - SWG was a business.     But WHEN YOU GET CALLED THE WORST MMO OF THE YEAR ABOUT 3 years in a row and from this SITE!!!  You may have a problem.

Yet the NGE nay sayers didnt believe it.    Looks like we saw how that worked out for them.

Originally posted by Theiskareot

And if anyone remembers... Freeman was here actually it was me that pulled him here.   Then Smedley too.. I posted emails here and he while sure hated it admited they were true.

Dude...you're my hero! Freeman went by the name "Dundee" here I believe?! But I never saw Smed's replies...do you happen to know if those posts are still alive?

And Smed was/is great about actually replying to emails. I'll give the guy credit for that. He answers his OWN and deserves credit for doing something very few CEOs do - see...I'm not totally filled with hate :D

They could be I dont know I have them still somewhere as you can imagine and SOME of those people are still around creeping here actually lol.   I posted those and it raised all kinds of Hell --because then they called me out as lying.. only to have Smed himself actually admitting he did email me.   Which in turn even caused more of a issue.   Needless to say I was not on these forums after that much.    

The fanbois were angry, the haters were shocked it was a mess.     But when it doubt use links and real info... that always made more people mad..

Linking this sites own MMO awards to how bad the game was -- always worked..

Then the GAMASUTRA post from a Dev team meeting... hit the web, that one was good too lol.

But then the Smedley saying how it was a mistake but he is working on fixing it- just says so much AS PEOPLE PAID FOR IT!

I wish I could sell a product, then say.. well Im gonna change it 3 times, it wont work right after the third time and it will lose all its support and entertainment level at that point and I want you to keep paying me for it.

I mean what?

Instead of people standing up to SOE with their wallets they folded and now they will pay for it, i.e. they lost sooner then needed.

Here is some links -

http://www.gamasutra.com/search/?search_text=SWG

This will cover all of what I just said...  I mean if you have not read this, be warned it will anger you more.    To be honest I have no logical idea of how they did what they did to people and they still paid them for it.....  Free Jedi in the NGE or not.

Looking back I would say 50% of the people that stayed -- did so - because they wanted the free Jedi.

Pretty safe to say that.

Here is a big sign... while it is sad Jeff took his life... there is some words people should have read back then and asked HMM MAYBE THIS IS A CRAPPY THING TO PAY FOR???

"Veteran MMO designer, Raph Koster, who worked with Freeman on SWG and helped him find a job at SOE, said in a eulogy posted on his personal blog, "He spent a huge amount of time talking to the players, talking to people for years afterwards, explaining, apologizing, justifying what he didn’t need to and shouldn’t have had to."

Originally posted by Theiskareot

Here is a big sign... while it is sad Jeff took his life... there is some words people should have read back then and asked HMM MAYBE THIS IS A CRAPPY THING TO PAY FOR???

"Veteran MMO designer, Raph Koster, who worked with Freeman on SWG and helped him find a job at SOE, said in a eulogy posted on his personal blog, "He spent a huge amount of time talking to the players, talking to people for years afterwards, explaining, apologizing, justifying what he didn’t need to and shouldn’t have had to."

"I want everyone to know that it was not SWG that lead him to take his life," added Archer on the forum. "He has been troubled for sometime. There were [a lot] of personal issues that tore at him. Regardless of how SWG turned out, we must admit that many of the great things we enjoyed about [the pre-combat update game] was because of his work."

 

 

Looking back at those statements - says alot.    Not about his personal issues BUT THE FACT HE FELT HE HAD TO SAY SORRY...

 

In otherwords if there was positive feelings or he felt good about the product in the first place none of those things would have happend, i.e. nothing to admit a mistake from if it wasn't.

 

Sad but very true.     Jeff was on these forums doing so at one time.   Needless to say it blew up all over the place that day I wont forget it.

Yeah, that post by Freeman is actually archived here.

I really admired Jeff for coming forward and taking the issue head-on. I know he realized the NGE was a mistake, but I believe him when he said it wasn't his place to say "no". He COULD have...but I think if most of our bosses came up to us and said "Do this!"...most of us would. Food, clothing and shelter pwn our desire to prove our boss wrong or to take the "I know better than you" route...especially when it's something as petty as an online game. However, if Smed came to him and said "Go blow up Blizzard", I like to think he would have refused. He may have been the guy that lead the development of the NGE, but Smedley is ultimately 100% liable for it.

Originally posted by Theiskareot

Here is a big sign... while it is sad Jeff took his life... there is some words people should have read back then and asked HMM MAYBE THIS IS A CRAPPY THING TO PAY FOR???

"Veteran MMO designer, Raph Koster, who worked with Freeman on SWG and helped him find a job at SOE, said in a eulogy posted on his personal blog, "He spent a huge amount of time talking to the players, talking to people for years afterwards, explaining, apologizing, justifying what he didn’t need to and shouldn’t have had to."

"I want everyone to know that it was not SWG that lead him to take his life," added Archer on the forum. "He has been troubled for sometime. There were [a lot] of personal issues that tore at him. Regardless of how SWG turned out, we must admit that many of the great things we enjoyed about [the pre-combat update game] was because of his work."

 

 

Looking back at those statements - says alot.    Not about his personal issues BUT THE FACT HE FELT HE HAD TO SAY SORRY...

 

In otherwords if there was positive feelings or he felt good about the product in the first place none of those things would have happend, i.e. nothing to admit a mistake from if it wasn't.

 

Sad but very true.     Jeff was on these forums doing so at one time.   Needless to say it blew up all over the place that day I wont forget it.

I was pretty pissed about what down with Freeman when news dropped that he was gone.

I bet if someone took the time to look thru MMORPG.com, you could still find a post or two where vets were wishing more folks died. This "vet" area of the boards has played home to some sick individuals. A certain "report" guy that felt the need to stalk me, and a few others comes to mind.

Which is a shame, as some did use this place to vent their grief in a healthy way. That said, I would like to see this place nuked, but the fallout on various other forums would be too much work for the mods.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Theiskareot

Here is a big sign... while it is sad Jeff took his life... there is some words people should have read back then and asked HMM MAYBE THIS IS A CRAPPY THING TO PAY FOR???

"Veteran MMO designer, Raph Koster, who worked with Freeman on SWG and helped him find a job at SOE, said in a eulogy posted on his personal blog, "He spent a huge amount of time talking to the players, talking to people for years afterwards, explaining, apologizing, justifying what he didn’t need to and shouldn’t have had to."

"I want everyone to know that it was not SWG that lead him to take his life," added Archer on the forum. "He has been troubled for sometime. There were [a lot] of personal issues that tore at him. Regardless of how SWG turned out, we must admit that many of the great things we enjoyed about [the pre-combat update game] was because of his work."

 

 

Looking back at those statements - says alot.    Not about his personal issues BUT THE FACT HE FELT HE HAD TO SAY SORRY...

 

In otherwords if there was positive feelings or he felt good about the product in the first place none of those things would have happend, i.e. nothing to admit a mistake from if it wasn't.

 

Sad but very true.     Jeff was on these forums doing so at one time.   Needless to say it blew up all over the place that day I wont forget it.

I was pretty pissed about what down with Freeman when news dropped that he was gone.

 

I bet if someone took the time to look thru MMORPG.com, you could still find a post or two where vets were wishing more folks died. This "vet" area of the boards has played home to some sick individuals. A certain "report" guy that felt the need to stalk me, and a few others comes to mind.

 

Which is a shame, as some did use this place to vent their grief in a healthy way. That said, I would like to see this place nuked, but the fallout on various other forums would be too much work for the mods.

The biggest issue was the false mixed with the true more or less or the shades of it.    When Dundee posted here.. and rebuttled some of my comments one day it opened up some stuff.. and then getting Smedley to come here as well opened up a whole other level.

I admit I posted the emails from me and Smedley and wanted people to see real discussons... then of course it was questioned then I held him to it and he actually came here and actually said yes.. he did say those things and was sorry for it.

While I am glad they said sorry plenty of times, at that point I am not sure who to blame more.    The NGE fans that paid for the product or the fact that Smedley continued to sell it and make a profit knowing how much it was screwed up, how many paid for his mistakes (mind you not the NGE) people at first.  But the fact he did it and just kinda... ignored telling some people at times about what he really thought.

I think the mistake in all of this was the Captain of the ship coming forward and saying... here is the deal, its bad.. I think its bad... people have quit because its bad... we are shutting down servers because its bad... it is BEING CLOSED DOWN SOON BECAUSE IT IS BAD...

In the end if he just flat out said, it is a bad product... here it is free for those that need to play it but sorry, it is so bad we lost everyone who matters..  FROM TIGGS down.

I wont forget when she got the AXE -- later to find out she could not contiue lying were her words.  I wont forget going to the INDY meet and greet when the NGE hit.... Ohhhh man, the anger.. wow it was so wild to see people flat out say you suck...

See, thats just it, instead of seeing (THANKS ITS FUN YOU ARE DOING WELL)  it was nothing but failure.. everyone asking why everything was taken out and hatred with anger...  little kids crying... adults mad as Hell.

Looking back the concept and that famous post about the NGE to come will go down as the biggest mistake we will ever see with a million dollar IP product in the gaming world I bet.    Nobody will ever do that again.

Originally posted by TUX426

I really admired Jeff for coming forward and taking the issue head-on. I know he realized the NGE was a mistake, but I believe him when he said it wasn't his place to say "no". He COULD have...but I think if most of our bosses came up to us and said "Do this!"...most of us would. Food, clothing and shelter pwn our desire to prove our boss wrong or to take the "I know better than you" route...especially when it's something as petty as an online game. However, if Smed came to him and said "Go blow up Blizzard", I like to think he would have refused. He may have been the guy that lead the development of the NGE, but Smedley is ultimately 100% liable for it.

Ah yes, the infamous "Look, when the boss tells you to install a toilet in the middle of the living room..." line springs to mind. Only I seem to recall that was said by a dev back in early CU days, with nothing to do with NGE. Some bosses just need to be hit over the head with "That's a BAD idea!" several times before it has a chance of taking hold.