Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

I swear, you guys should work for the Republican party.  Someone at SOE coughs without covering their mouth and 30 seconds later there is a thread here "SOE Engaging in Bio Terrorism!!!!!" 

 

You act like customer concern comes out of nowhere.  Here's the context: Game at release advertises unlocking the mystery of the jedi.  We later found out that the jedi system wasn't even coded at release.  Quests that players are told are working as intended are missing contacts, contacts are then added in later.  Professions are promised revamps, but they are in fact then deleted.  Features for soon to be deleted professions are marketted at two dev chats, the NGE will remove them all, but nothing is said.  Serious bugs are promised fixes in dev chats, yet no fixes occur.  Smed promises to fast track server mergers, no mergers occur.  Smed says, how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, no star destroyers for guilds are ever developed, etc. etc. etc. 

Are you suggesting that customers are inventing this pattern of behaviour?  Are you denying this history of players being strung along and outright misled?  Yes, players/customers are very wary of Sony Online Entertainment.  Look up again at the list of their behaviour if you want to know why.   That's the short list btw.

I said it before and I will say it again. I honestly think SWG vets got screwed by SOE.  However that doesn't change the fact that anytime they do ANyTHING now you guys go freaking nuts about.  It doesn't matter what they do. They could donate 25 million dollars in aid to starving african refugees and you guys would STILL find a way to crucify them for it.

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

I swear, you guys should work for the Republican party.  Someone at SOE coughs without covering their mouth and 30 seconds later there is a thread here "SOE Engaging in Bio Terrorism!!!!!" 

 

You act like customer concern comes out of nowhere.  Here's the context: Game at release advertises unlocking the mystery of the jedi.  We later found out that the jedi system wasn't even coded at release.  Quests that players are told are working as intended are missing contacts, contacts are then added in later.  Professions are promised revamps, but they are in fact then deleted.  Features for soon to be deleted professions are marketted at two dev chats, the NGE will remove them all, but nothing is said.  Serious bugs are promised fixes in dev chats, yet no fixes occur.  Smed promises to fast track server mergers, no mergers occur.  Smed says, how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, no star destroyers for guilds are ever developed, etc. etc. etc. 

Are you suggesting that customers are inventing this pattern of behaviour?  Are you denying this history of players being strung along and outright misled?  Yes, players/customers are very wary of Sony Online Entertainment.  Look up again at the list of their behaviour if you want to know why.   That's the short list btw.

 

I said it before and I will say it again. I honestly think SWG vets got screwed by SOE.  However that doesn't change the fact that anytime they do ANyTHING now you guys go freaking nuts about.  It doesn't matter what they do. They could donate 25 million dollars in aid to starving african refugees and you guys would STILL find a way to crucify them for it.

When they restored camps to the game, some abilities for entertainers, and allowed people (finally after 2 years) to access their pets, I expressed appreciation.  When they did the things I mentioned in my earlier list, I did not.  I think you'll find that the response is highly relevant to the behaviour.  Painting all vets as a bunch of over-reacting zealots overlooks these simple facts, and is again a misrepresentation of many customers, as a defense of SOE.  It comes across as "poor SOE, being picked on again by their vicious customers."  This is a gross misrepresentation of SOE/customer relations, in my view.

Also, my sister-in law has worked with the UN providing medical relief to war-torn countries.  I'm very sure I would be extremely appreciative if SOE or anyone made any financial contribution whatsoever to these efforts.  No, I'm afraid former customers of SOE are generally not at all as you would portray us.  

I'll admit to being a consumer advocate in my spare time, but this doesn't at all resemble the picture you seem to be painting.  Indeed someone may be on the receiving end of unjust criticism here, but it certainly isn't SOE.  The irony isn't lost on me, and probably won't be lost on others.
 

I'm sorry but I find the conclusions you guys coming to a HUGE stretch. You are comparing a CCG with gambling, the lottery, and RMT's...

I can kind of see your logic, b/c they do, kind of, have some things in common, but I think many of you are misinformed, or are misunderstanding the game, as really, they aren't even in the same league. First of all, ALL of the loot cards are just flavor items, none of them give any kind of advantage in combat or anything like that. And they actually did put some planning into the CCG itself b/c it IS a well put together CCG, and I've found it pretty entertaining.

What SOE is doing w/ the CCG's in EQ, and EQ2 w/ LoN, and whatever the new one in SWG is called, is no different then what Blizz is doing w/ their CCG, and it's all the same principle that goes into all CCG, and sports cards (baseball cards). They all have rarer cards in them that are distributed at a set ratio to all the other cards, and that ratior varies according to the rareness of the card. I don't know what the ratio of packs:loot cards is in the WoW CCG, it seems the items are extremely rare in that one, but in EQ/EQ2's CCG the loot cards are pulled out of packs at a ratio of 8:1(packs:loot cards). That really isn't a bad ratio at all, and considering that all the loot cards are flavor items, and have no impact on the game. For example, in LoN most of the illusion loot cards have a small scaling stat bonus attached to the illusion spell, but even at the cap it's inconsiquential. The other loot cards are usually furniture for the players house, paintings specifically, that reduce the rent, some trinkets have trade-skill or adventure xp bonuses equal w/ what you get as a veteran reward for playing the game for 3-months, then there are the mounts which are usually pretty cool, and rarely seen. But none of these items have anything, bonus wise, that can't be gotten through the course of normal gameplay.

I think it's WAY harsh to compare these games to gambling, a lottery, or RMTs. Gambling is for real, hard currency, the lottery is a form of gambling regulated by the government, and RMTs you are trading money for in-game items that have a definate effect on the gameplay experience, the loot cards from the CCGs do not have an impact on gameplay and you get a pretty good CCG to play. I really see nothing wrong w/ them giving an in-game bonus to people that play the CCG, if you don't want to play the CCG then don't, you can get the items another way.

I agree with the posters above me, I think you guys are just using this as another excuse, and a poor one at that, to criticize SoE

You just said, "ALL of the loot cards are just flavor items, none of them give any kind of advantage in combat or anything like that."

You know this statement is false don't you?  Are you lying to us intentionally, or are you just misinformed?

Oh yes, and this is also false: "the loot cards from the CCGs do not have an impact on gameplay."  Any cards that modify combat related attributes have an "impact on gameplay."  It's dishonest to deny it.  

So far everyone who has defended this SOE strategy has either attempted to criticize players or outright lie about the trading card mechanics, or both.  This isn't doing much for credibility in my view.  It also happens to be the approach that SOE has taken with most if not all of its unpopular moves--lie about the  the game, paint disgruntled players as unreliable witnesses.  I remain convinced that this is an ineffective approach to marketting, and I believe the subscription rate supports my viewpoint.

Can you not at least defend what you like honestly?  It can be done, but you wouldn't know it from reading these boards.

So far, there are in fact two loot cards that modify combat related stats.  This alters gameplay for combat obviously and you're paying SOE real cash for a chance to obtain one of these cards.  Saying that the loot cards are all fluff items that do not impact gameplay is an outright lie.

Furthermore, these buff cards function like consumables.  You used to interact with other players to obtain consumable buffs that they would craft and then sell to you in the player-based economy.  Now, however, you interact with SOE and pay them real money for a chance to get the buff, instead of paying a player ingame virtual currencey to get the consumable buff for certain.  So tell me then how this benefits players.  It makes them pay SOE more money for possible buffs and takes the place of crafting and selling in the game between players.

Two more of the loot cards that you can pay to get a chance at give you experience boosts that you used to get once again by interacting with other players via entertainment buffs.  Now the SOE online store is taking business and interaction from what used to be player activities (i.e. entertainment buffs).

So, the card game directly impacts combat, the ingame economy, and entertainers, all in ways that do not appear to benefit players, but do indeed encourage people to pay more money into the SOE online store.  In fact, it seems that players who buff ingame are now in competition with SOE for business.  How does this enhance their gameplay experience?

If you want to defend the loot cards, please don't lie about them.  These are the facts, if you can make a case for this being a benefit to players, and not just another SOE cash grab at players's expense (on more than one level), please feel free to make it.  I'd actually love to see an argument that doesn't lie about the loot cards, suggest that vets are crackpots, or accuse people of advocating prohibition and indifference towards refugees (I may never understand where this particular argument came from, as it doesn't seem at all related to the topic of the thread). 

I agree.  MMO's are addictive, and this is just feeding off of that addiction. I think this is gambling and should be regulated as such.

Originally posted by Terranah

I agree.  MMO's are addictive, and this is just feeding off of that addiction. I think this is gambling and should be regulated as such.

I don't think this is just gambling.

Take a look at this thread....

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?&topic_id=735053

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by Terranah

I agree.  MMO's are addictive, and this is just feeding off of that addiction. I think this is gambling and should be regulated as such.

 

I don't think this is just gambling.

Take a look at this thread....

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?&topic_id=735053

 

I'm reading throught it now.  So far this post caught my eye: "The difference is that with a real lottery you got at least a slight chance to win something REAL for your money.  With this "lottery" you get something virtual that might not exist anymore tomorrow."

Can't deny the truth of that statement.  Well, I'm sure someone will try...

Wow, now I just read this: "You realize that direct sale of TCG cards for real cash is allowed? It has not really started in the SWG TCG yet, but if you look at the Legends of Norrath TCG trade froums, people openly buy/sell cards for real cash on the official forums.

Its a 'sanctioned' act sadly enough. (though SOE washes its hands of issues related to getting ripped off as the EULA does state you dont actually own anything when you buy those cards). However SOE does not prohibt sales anyway.

Some cards in LoN sell for $200-$300+, just go take a peek, there are prolly some sales posted like that right now. There are also a number of 3rd party sites selling LoN cards (and now offering SWG TCG cards too)."

What a mess.
 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

As I become more aware of the way the trading card game works, I become more concerned that SOE has found a new way to exploit the players of SWG.

Apparently you need to pay money for cards in the off-chance that you might get something that enhances your combat ability (e.g. Gorax card +200 constitution and luck), or some other rare, desirable item.  This seems no different than playing slot machines, putting in money in the off chance that you might hit the jackpot.  You might pay and get nothing of much value, then some people will be inclined to pay more, and more since they've already "invested" say 50 bucks, and "need" to hit the jackpot to justify this.

Also, the "free" cards aren't free at all.  To get them you need to keep paying your subscription.  Population problems have persisted and this seems like a mechanism to try to retain players, once again by appealing to the slot machine mindset.  Keep paying your 15 bucks to play a broken and empty game in the off chance that you might hit the jackpot with one of your "free" non-tradeable, "trading" cards.

Sorry but I find this topic way of base Arcangel I expected better from you and now you just pushing it. EVERY GAME or it COMPANY will do their upmost best to appeal to gamers this means every game will have a addicting factor to it, this doesn't matter if this is SWG, CoH/V LotrO it really does not matter. And again it's the people playing these games own responsibility to either get into the cards or not get into them, own responsibility is something that seems lost with many people who are TRYING to play games in this genre and if some people spend more money then they should on a game it's their own fault and not some game company's fault. I just wish people understood what taking responsibility meant.
 

But the only fact here is that when people dislike/hate a game or it's company they will find anything to discredit them. Sorry Arc but SWG has always had additive feature's within it's game just like every other game ever made. Maybe not in this type of way like the trading card but then it's not the only game that has trading cards that needs to be bought yet we don't see you mention thse games if you wanted to make a honost topic you should have research other games aswell and determine the additive value of those feature's.  You might not like the idea of trading cards, same here I don't see it as something that would let me return t the game simply cause I don't like trading cards, ot me it's something for hte younger kids amoung the gamers. But it doesn't mean because I don't like it it's some sort of scam.

GAMES can be a addiction, what ever they add to their game. Also when someone is already paying a subfee then some of  CARDS ARE FREE no matter how you try to twist it. It would be foolish to give people free cards that do not have a subscription since it's a ingame feature.

Usely I enjoy your topics, but lately I've seen not much new to this section, reason why I don't visit this section as much as a few months back. No real discussions anymore, just finding what ever to nitpick on SOE.

Common man it's been what 3/4 years now, let those who seem to enjoy the game let them enjoy it, you enjoy your game, I enjoy my game (no mmorpg at the moment for me but you will NOT see me bash games I dislike why continue to spend energy on games you dislike? And why am I spending energy on topics I don't like is to try and show things slightly in perspective towards this community cause lets e honost if we want we can rip apart any game we like, but to not do that takes much more effort then simply discredit anything some might dislike.

I did not make one false statement in that post...you seem WAY too emotionally involved in this whole issue and I don't think any of this has anything to do with the CCG....

But, like I said, the stat bonus from these cards are MINIMAL and INCONSAQUENTIAL and do not affect gameplay on any level, 200hp @ lvl 70 in EQ2 is nothing, and that is the best stat buff you can get from any loot card in the first three sets. The only other buff that even affects combat is a dmg shield, also tied to some of the illusions, but again, it does dmg that is absolutely inconsaquential at any level. The tradeskill and xp bonuses are kinda nice, but again, don't add up to much. Most of the bonuses on the items though do things like, grant safe-fall, or increase/decrease player size, or allow you to play frisbee and other silly things. And one more time, none of the bonuses that actually affects adventuring or tradeskilling, from these cards are unique, there is nothing on any of them that can't be gotten elsewhere in the game, at least that was always the case w/ LoN, I can't speak for this one in SWG, but I doubt it would vary much.

And no one is forcing anyone to buy these cards, and as I said many times, none of the bonuses the loot cards give are unique, nor do they impact gameplay b/c the bonuses are so minor. Also you are wrong about the nature of the CCG, you do NOT need to subscribe to any MMO to play them, or get the promotion cards they give now and then. The client to play the card game outside the MMOs is FREE, and available to anyone. You don't even have to ever have been a customer of theirs, if you want to play the game you can go, create a station account, download the client, get the starter kit, and play for free for as long as they want. Of course, boosters cost money, and the loot cards wouldn't be of much value to people that don't subscribe, but there is a fully functioning game that is totally seperate from the MMOs.

edit: just to check, I went and looked at all the loot cards from LoN which is EQ/EQ2s CCG, and I stand by my statement, none of these items give bonuses that is going to affect adventuring or tradeskilling, the bonuses you speak of are nothing that is going to affect the game at any level.

Here is a link to the list of LoN loot cards