Greetings.

Generally iI would consider myself a luker, watcher, etc. I come to the Refuge Section to see what is going on. to see what new and "interesting" ideas are being pushed about on a great manay subjects related to SWG, yes, especially the OLD game.

To be honest, i think there is a few problems with the small section of a pretty vast site that covers alot of groud.

A. the whole description of this area Mr. Wood jsut screams flame wars. "A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone.:

you call this a place for the disgruntled former players and current one to talk about both the game past and the new version.

In my OPINION (see not a fact), this is begging for it. oil and water if you will.

B. It is clear that some people enjoy the new version and feel that they must bounce in to here (hey you invited them too remember) to defend the game. Some of them are blantantly annying (pirg), others frankly try to sound reasonable but really cloak themselves, or try to convice others that history of the game is not what it is.

C. It is equally as clear that there are still to this day PLENTY of hurt feelings and broken ingame (only there i hope) dreams that were affected radically by NGE.

D. It is equally clear that the consumer of games liek this have enough anger (hate? memory?) of what has happen to this one game that when the mear mention of SoE in partnership with any other company (Vangard), or even a hint of it (STO) that seriously deep emotions come into play. Emotions and passion are some of the greatest motivators in human history and right now in this gaming indusrty there is alot of negative ones erupting when NGE and or SoE are brought up.

E. For good or evil when a staff memeber states his opinion all the disclaimers in the world are NOT going to stop the fact that a member of this staff, posted to THIS section what they felt about the audience in here.  When a staff member voices thier opinion it should and MUST be in private. Staff members by thier very association should never voice an opinion that can be seen as a negative to your customer base. If one of my Customer Support techs said that product a or group b use was bad or "moaners" I would have to fire them on the spot as they were representing the company, on the compnaies dime, using the companies resources to negatively represent something. I know my bosses want our custoimer to come to us and leave with an enjoyable experience when dealign with the staff, I hope your staff understands this concept (and yes I bet they all do!)

To the gentleman that was saying calliing NGE a failure was an opinion, i would agree with you save for the fact that as cited above and other places, SoE has stated that it was/is a failure on many levels, "neutral" reviews of NGE are less than stellar. You may enjoy the game and that is great, heck I still play and love Anarchy Online.

okay enough, sorry to ramble.

Honestly Jon I come to your forums to find news and things about games. It is a darn good resource, but this section is a battle ground partily from yoru own doing sir.

Kent Schwertfeger

Bah I think Jon is doing fine and the best he can with all of this mess and that is all you can ask for.

Bottom line most of us old Vets have a place to hang and wish, complain, rant and bitch about what we liked, loved and wished we had back.

At times we have to see some utter bullshit sure, but still we deal with it.

Like I said before, you do not need to be a Monkey to figure out just how bad the product is now.

SOE will even tell you more or less but you just have to see it.

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Originally posted by iskareot

Bah I think Jon is doing fine and the best he can with all of this mess and that is all you can ask for.

Bottom line most of us old Vets have a place to hang and wish, complain, rant and bitch about what we liked, loved and wished we had back.

At times we have to see some utter bullshit sure, but still we deal with it.

Like I said before, you do not need to be a Monkey to figure out just how bad the product is now.

SOE will even tell you more or less but you just have to see it.

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I don't think it is MMORPG.com's fault either. Least for the most part (90% of the problem belongs to the people doing the flaming). It isn't a pleasent situation to try and manage.

Unfortunately there is a saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." But that doesn't mean those people are in the right. I think the fanbois have probably complained the loudest, thus Mr. Woods one sided post.

I think a few of the Vets/antiNGErs in THIS forum have now reacted. More people need to step up to the plate to show we speak with one voice. The antiNGErs also need to start policing their own. We can start by giving the proNGErs their space and stay out of their forum, ESPECIALLY if you can't be reasonably civil.

I think the staff at MMORPG.com know all too well what has been going on with SWG. I want to believe that they have split the forums to try to accomodate both sides. So both sides can be heard with out everyone getting into a flame war.

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

This entire post seems one sided. You must be saying that anti-NGE people have to take the flaming, beratement, and personal attacks from the proNGE people.

It seems pretty silly that you have to post something like this in the "Refugee" forum regarding the treatment of proNGE people. Maybe the problem isn't the antiNGE'rs or the former SWG players. Maybe just maybe the problem is with some of the proNGErs posting in the "Refugee" forum because they don't like what they are reading ... even if it is the truth.

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Originally posted by anarchyart

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

This entire post seems one sided. You must be saying that anti-NGE people have to take the flaming, beratement, and personal attacks from the proNGE people.

It seems pretty silly that you have to post something like this in the "Refugee" forum regarding the treatment of proNGE people. Maybe the problem isn't the antiNGE'rs or the former SWG players. Maybe just maybe the problem is with some of the proNGErs posting in the "Refugee" forum because they don't like what they are reading ... even if it is the truth.

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Your opinion is idiotic.

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As if I CARE what you think?

Obviousely unable to formulate anything more than a 4 word, one sentence reponse. And unable to explain why.

Nope he isn't even a regular here! Just someone that likes to pop into a threads to give someone grief. LOLOL

He likes Vanguard tho .... LOL

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

Shadow,

Some of what you say is true, but most of it is subjective and is open to opinion. Whether the NGE is better than the Pre-CU or the other way arround is opinion, not fact. A bigger playerbase does not make the Pre-CU game a better game than NGE, because one mans trash is anothers treasure. So saying a particular version of a game is better is just opinion. So it is not stirring up trouble to post as such in the Refuge section if they are Vets themselves. It is okay to have a differing opinion without it being an attack and that is what Stradden is trying to get across to you. Keep also in mind that subscription numbers to all MMORPG's but WoW drop and keep dropping over a period of years, so even if Pre-CU stayed around, people would have quit anyways out of boredom and many people has stated as much in the General Discussion forum over the past year. No I admit, most MMO's tend to level off at some point which SWG didn't do. I don't deny the fact that the NGE is a bad business move, because it was and it cost SOE tons of money. But the NGE still may be better to those that play the game. Let people have their own opinion without attacking them, that is all Stradden is trying to say. Sometimes people who think they are right and justified need to swallow their pride and just let people think or feel what they want.

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YOU and others may WISH it to be an opinion, but it is NOT.

The FACT is, that IF the NGE was worth playing then there would NOT have been a loss of some 75 percent (or more) of the playerbase.

If you can't handle the TRUTH or want to legitimize the NGE then you need to go back to the "Current" forum. I am NOT debating whether someone has the right to like the NGE. I am debating ... NO ... I am stating a fact that the NGE is garbage and will always be garbage. The size or lack of size of the playerbase in this instance proves I am right. I am sorry for being direct but I am tired of this BS.

Whether or not the NGE is, was, or ever has been successful is NOT debatable. It CLEARLY has NOT been ... ever.

Whether or not the playerbase is as large as preNGE is not debatable. It is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Whether or not the NGE is an enjoyable game (AS A WHOLE) is not debatable. It is not enjoyable to the OVERwhelming majority of people that have played it.

Whether or not someone does like or has the right to LIKE the NGE is not the subject here. I would agree with you about the NGE being an "opinion" IF the playerbase level remained the same or especially if the numbers increased even slightly.

If someone said something like, "I like SWG and the NGE because it is still Star Wars." it would be a statement I can accept wholeheartedly. This is an opinion and it is cool. But do NOT try to pass off the NGE as something that it isn't. That will just stir up trouble and should be considered flame bait. Thus a violation of the RoC.

Your statement is directed one way. It is about time it went both ways. After all this is the "Refugee" forum.

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And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

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As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran Refuge
A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

• Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.
• Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.
• Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC
• Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.
• Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts,  then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 350,000.

1. Q. Do they like the game? A. I would assume so otherwise they would NOT be playing.
2. Q. Are they allowed to say they like the game? A. Absolutely.

So where is the problem? The problem is that any MATURE and REASONABLE person that still playes SWG SHOULD be able to admit all of the facts listed above. However, the NGE fanbios that post in the REFUGEE forum can't seem to admit that these things are true and carry on like the NGE is the best thing that ever happened to SWG. When they do this In the REFUGEE forum it starts flamewars. Some people call this flamebait ... maybe you heard of this term before?

The place for all the proNGErs to put their posts saying stuff like the NGE is the best incarnation of SWG is in THEIR OWN FORUM. They should be able to say whatever they want there without fear of being flamed. The same goes for us in the Refugee forum. Like I said before, I have no problem with somene that says I still like SWG regardless of its problems because it is still Star Wars. But to pass something off that is an obvious lie is PURE flamebait and should not be tolerated.

One other example of a proNGEr NOT being able to admit the truth was when Obriak and I got into it recently about Smugglers. I stated the Smugglers still can not smuggle, Obriak said they can, then I copied 6 links to current topics in the Official Smugglers forum all complaining about Smugglers not being able to smuggle. Obriak never again posted in that thread nor did he ever admit he was wrong. Very sad for a SUPPOSED adult.

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

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As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran Refuge
A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

• Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.
• Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.
• Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC
• Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.
• Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts,  then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 350,000.

1. Q. Do they like the game? A. I would assume so otherwise they would NOT be playing.
2. Q. Are they allowed to say they like the game? A. Absolutely.

So where is the problem? The problem is that any MATURE and REASONABLE person that still playes SWG SHOULD be able to admit all of the facts listed above. However, the NGE fanbios that post in the REFUGEE forum can't seem to admit that these things are true and carry on like the NGE is the best thing that ever happened to SWG. When they do this In the REFUGEE forum it starts flamewars. Some people call this flamebait ... maybe you heard of this term before?

The place for all the proNGErs to put their posts saying stuff like the NGE is the best incarnation of SWG is in THEIR OWN FORUM. They should be able to say whatever they want there without fear of being flamed. The same goes for us in the Refugee forum. Like I said before, I have no problem with somene that says I still like SWG regardless of its problems because it is still Star Wars. But to pass something off that is an obvious lie is PURE flamebait and should not be tolerated.

One other example of a proNGEr NOT being able to admit the truth was when Obriak and I got into it recently about Smugglers. I stated the Smugglers still can not smuggle, Obriak said they can, then I copied 6 links to current topics in the Official Smugglers forum all complaining about Smugglers not being able to smuggle. Obriak never again posted in that thread nor did he ever admit he was wrong. Very sad for a SUPPOSED adult.

 

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And carrying a rude tone throughout this post and being condesending and then gloating over a post with Obraik is adult like?

Obraik has always acted like an adult and puts up with the abuse on this forum rather well. I agree with all those facts, but it is opinion to state that a game is better then than now. Sure the overwhelming majority thinks that Pre-CU is better, but it is obvious that some people do not agree or SWG wouldn't have any subscribers left. The interesting thing about facts is that any reasonable person cannot deny them, because they have been proven as facts. But a gamer version being better to an INDIVIDUAL person is opinion, because only the INDIVIDUAL can be the judge of that. Now if the question was, "Is it a fact that the majority of SWG players, past and present think that the Pre-CU version is the better SWG," then I would have to say, "yes, it is a fact."

I broke it down as far as I could there. If you don't get it now, then you never will and you are just one of those people that cannot reason correctly.

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

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As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran Refuge
A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

• Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.
• Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.
• Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC
• Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.
• Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts,  then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 35