Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by superniceguy

Selling 3 million and retaining 1.7 million is better as it is more believable. These reports are so bogus, epsecially this, and this report just highlights that.  So therefore can not say whether anything is better or worse in the past at all. There are copies out there that have not even been used, and they are the 0.3 million.

 

So...you're accusing them of lying and falsifying information in their quarterly reports to shareholders? This wasn't an interview given to some MMO gaming site dude, it's their reports to the SEC. That's a VERY serious allegation you're making.

http://investor.ea.com/releases.cfm?ReleasesType=Earnings

They are not lying and falsifying information. It is just being presented in good light

Nothing I have said accuses them as lying.

I believe they have had 1.7 subscribers at end of Dec 31st, but somehow you think they lost 0.3 million from 2 million on Jan 20th?

It is bogus because they make you and people like you belive that that 0.3 million subs was lost when it is not possible, The quarterly ending was Dec31st. No one was able to be lost until Jan 20th, so therefore any lost subs is not in that report

It is the same as when Obi-wan said to Luke that Darth Vader killed his father - Just another version of the truth.

What I find amusing about all the ToR Hype is that it supposedly managed GOY 2011 with only 2 weeks of Open Live Play.

 

Now to be fair I know there are things about TOR that make it a good game.  And I know it had Huge Pre-Orders. And it had Huge "Day 1" active accounts.

But when Gamer Magazines like GameInsider state that it is a great Single Player MMO....

 

I then wonder if the "SW:G Fanbois" that said it was a mistake to not have both games around are getting proven correct.

Originally posted by superniceguy

With the way the game has been designed, and people are hitting 50 fast, and Bioware not able to keep up with demand, the game does not look to have a bright future. It is only healthy atm, as people are still not 50, but even those who are playing casually are at 30/40 now, and I played LOTRO hard when it first released and did not even hit 10 within the first month.

I played LOTRO as well, and was able to hit level 10 in the first DAY.

Originally posted by hipiap

What I find amusing about all the ToR Hype is that it supposedly managed GOY 2011 with only 2 weeks of Open Live Play.

 

Now to be fair I know there are things about TOR that make it a good game.  And I know it had Huge Pre-Orders. And it had Huge "Day 1" active accounts.

But when Gamer Magazines like GameInsider state that it is a great Single Player MMO....

 

I then wonder if the "SW:G Fanbois" that said it was a mistake to not have both games around are getting proven correct.

This doesn't make a lick of sense.

1. There's plenty to do in TOR in groups.

2. SWG was a goddamn disaster at the end.

Originally posted by kobie173

Originally posted by hipiap

What I find amusing about all the ToR Hype is that it supposedly managed GOY 2011 with only 2 weeks of Open Live Play.

 

Now to be fair I know there are things about TOR that make it a good game.  And I know it had Huge Pre-Orders. And it had Huge "Day 1" active accounts.

But when Gamer Magazines like GameInsider state that it is a great Single Player MMO....

 

I then wonder if the "SW:G Fanbois" that said it was a mistake to not have both games around are getting proven correct.

This doesn't make a lick of sense.

1. There's plenty to do in TOR in groups.

2. SWG was a goddamn disaster at the end.

What groups?

Soon(TM) time for server merges. What a joke...

Originally posted by kobie173

Originally posted by superniceguy

With the way the game has been designed, and people are hitting 50 fast, and Bioware not able to keep up with demand, the game does not look to have a bright future. It is only healthy atm, as people are still not 50, but even those who are playing casually are at 30/40 now, and I played LOTRO hard when it first released and did not even hit 10 within the first month.

I played LOTRO as well, and was able to hit level 10 in the first DAY.

Most of my characters in LOTRO are still 8 and 9 after 5 years! I'm sure you could get to 10 in a day if you just concentrated on the main quests and levlling and did not get distracted by various things, but in SWTOR there is hardly any other places to explore in it, other than the areas which take you on your quests.

LOTRO is probably the best MMO based off the WOW formula, a game based off the movies, has better crafting, a decent housing system, plenty of seasonal events, fishing, and a decent open world environment to explore, and could go anywhere you want, even if too low level, as long as you stay on the main path and be careful, and has a good story based main quest with cut scenes.

It was also doing pretty good even before it went F2P. The reason I understood for it going F2P was because WB took over Turbine, and to make it go on the same payment model as DDO, as opposed to declining populations, and each expansion has gotten awards

Personally, I never hated NGE. A more accurate reflection of my feelings is dissapointment.

NGE just wasn't the same game I had originally been playing and loved. Sure pre-CU wasn't perfect, but it was a lot more engaging than NGE was for me. In short, NGE felt too much like yet another bland themepark MMO, whereas pre-CU felt more like an attempt at a virtual recreation of the starwars universe.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Personally, I never hated NGE. A more accurate reflection of my feelings is dissapointment.

NGE just wasn't the same game I had originally been playing and loved. Sure pre-CU wasn't perfect, but it was a lot more engaging than NGE was for me. In short, NGE felt too much like yet another bland themepark MMO, whereas pre-CU felt more like an attempt at a virtual recreation of the starwars universe.

this sums up completely I think.. some of us just go alittle to far talking about the NGE.. don't get me wrong I didnt stick around and play the NGE im a Pre-cu all the way

Originally posted by themozz

I know a lot of people liked the professions pre-NGE but to be honest, I still felt SWG was one of the best MMOs out there even afterwards. I enjoyed the star wars universe and the epic player created towns.

Even servers that were dying (my own server of radiant) managed to keep GCW battles and pvp active everyday up to a few months ago.

I had a lot of fun and I know towards the end they were adding in a lot of content that they had been preparing.

A lot of NGE haters definitely missed out on a great star wars experience.

I totally agree with you. I came back to SWG in January 2011 and was having an absolute blast. The GCW system was amazing. Town battles was like something out of the movies. I was completely blown away by the things I saw in game. They had done a lot to make the game solid. My only disappointment is that I waited to try it. and the reason I waited was because of all the negativety surrounding NGE. Well for everyone who didn't give it a try, you did miss out. Now we all get to.

Honestly I would have to agree with the op.   To me Pre-CU was my number 1 mmo but NGE SWG would have made top five easily.  It is just that rush of what was, the TCG and the fear that SOE was going to do it again that kept me away.

AS a SWG vet of 7years, i find it funny how everyone knocks the NGE yet runs out and plays the same style games. SWG was unique game with so many features, open space to explore, and the best crafting system ever in any mmo. People left in droves after the nge without giving it proper time to sink in.

Even today people say "oh i loved SWG crafting pre-nge" these people to me have no clue and dont believe they actualy played the game. Since crafting was the same after the nge they just changed the profession/classes around and put them together.

SWG style game today with the eye candy, themepark quests, and better combat system would kill everything in its path.

SWG was also new and early part of mmo's so not millions of people played mmo's back then. When WOW was released they had the franchise name, a good rep, mad cash backing, and more people had access to the internet. Now everyone chases the WOW dream around hoping to draw in people. But the market is stagnate and all the games look the same.

 

We need a SWG game back in the market, a true sandbox with all the trimmings, and i bet you will see things change.

In the end, NGE was not that bad and still unique, but people in general just dont like change. If SWG was released with the NGE already in, probably wouldnt have even been an issue. People over look the massive game SWG was and never talk about the 100 features, the untold exploration of many planets, the easy leveling, the godly crafting system, and so much more swg had to offer. Its just talking about the NGE killed it. No SWG had so much more to it. We need a game like this today, they should bring it back honestly with updated combat system, better graphics, and more. Oh and bring creature handler back because you know thats the true reason you left SWG ;)

 

And TOR doesnt compare in sense of being a true mmo. SWG killed it in every aspect - features, crafting, exploration, space flight, player decorated housing, immersion, and so much more. Yeah i played TOR for a week or 2 and couldnt stand playing such a dumbed down mmo, have more respect for the star wars genre.

now I know some of you guys are NGE fans but the SWG Emu (Pre-Cu)  is coming along very nicely..  with more progess now then ever. I 'm sure some of you have heard of it but I just have to put it out there.. probably the only real deal hope of the game coming back I don't think Lucas is going to be doing anything with this title anymore :(

 

http://www.swgemu.com

Originally posted by Onomas

AS a SWG vet of 7years, i find it funny how everyone knocks the NGE yet runs out and plays the same style games. SWG was unique game with so many features, open space to explore, and the best crafting system ever in any mmo. People left in droves after the nge without giving it proper time to sink in.

Even today people say "oh i loved SWG crafting pre-nge" these people to me have no clue and dont believe they actualy played the game. Since crafting was the same after the nge they just changed the profession/classes around and put them together.

SWG style game today with the eye candy, themepark quests, and better combat system would kill everything in its path.

SWG was also new and early part of mmo's so not millions of people played mmo's back then. When WOW was released they had the franchise name, a good rep, mad cash backing, and more people had access to the internet. Now everyone chases the WOW dream around hoping to draw in people. But the market is stagnate and all the games look the same.

 

We need a SWG game back in the market, a true sandbox with all the trimmings, and i bet you will see things change.

In the end, NGE was not that bad and still unique, but people in general just dont like change. If SWG was released with the NGE already in, probably wouldnt have even been an issue. People over look the massive game SWG was and never talk about the 100 features, the untold exploration of many planets, the easy leveling, the godly crafting system, and so much more swg had to offer. Its just talking about the NGE killed it. No SWG had so much more to it. We need a game like this today, they should bring it back honestly with updated combat system, better graphics, and more. Oh and bring creature handler back because you know thats the true reason you left SWG ;)

 

And TOR doesnt compare in sense of being a true mmo. SWG killed it in every aspect - features, crafting, exploration, space flight, player decorated housing, immersion, and so much more. Yeah i played TOR for a week or 2 and couldnt stand playing such a dumbed down mmo, have more respect for the star wars genre.

Comments on the red part above.

The mechanics for playing the crafting part of the game was the same after the NGE, but the game changed and became loot based, crafted items lost their importens and the user controlled economy went away with the galopping inflation.

If you played the game before the NGE, you should know how this affected the crafting community. People stating that the usefulness and fun part of crafting was the same after the NGE are ignorance and rude to the whole crafting community. Actually,  "these people to me have no clue and dont believe they actualy played the game."

Originally posted by themozz

I know a lot of people liked the professions pre-NGE but to be honest, I still felt SWG was one of the best MMOs out there even afterwards. I enjoyed the star wars universe and the epic player created towns.

Even servers that were dying (my own server of radiant) managed to keep GCW battles and pvp active everyday up to a few months ago.

I had a lot of fun and I know towards the end they were adding in a lot of content that they had been preparing.

A lot of NGE haters definitely missed out on a great star wars experience.

doesnt really matter pre / post nge now. games is long gone :)

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by themozz

I know a lot of people liked the professions pre-NGE but to be honest, I still felt SWG was one of the best MMOs out there even afterwards. I enjoyed the star wars universe and the epic player created towns.

Even servers that were dying (my own server of radiant) managed to keep GCW battles and pvp active everyday up to a few months ago.

I had a lot of fun and I know towards the end they were adding in a lot of content that they had been preparing.

A lot of NGE haters definitely missed out on a great star wars experience.

doesnt really matter pre / post nge now. games is long gone :)

No its not...

 

*cough*

Originally posted by Sandbox

Originally posted by Onomas

AS a SWG vet of 7years, i find it funny how everyone knocks the NGE yet runs out and plays the same style games. SWG was unique game with so many features, open space to explore, and the best crafting system ever in any mmo. People left in droves after the nge without giving it proper time to sink in.

Even today people say "oh i loved SWG crafting pre-nge" these people to me have no clue and dont believe they actualy played the game. Since crafting was the same after the nge they just changed the profession/classes around and put them together.

SWG style game today with the eye candy, themepark quests, and better combat system would kill everything in its path.

SWG was also new and early part of mmo's so not millions of people played mmo's back then. When WOW was released they had the franchise name, a good rep, mad cash backing, and more people had access to the internet. Now everyone chases the WOW dream around hoping to draw in people. But the market is stagnate and all the games look the same.

 

We need a SWG game back in the market, a true sandbox with all the trimmings, and i bet you will see things change.

In the end, NGE was not that bad and still unique, but people in general just dont like change. If SWG was released with the NGE already in, probably wouldnt have even been an issue. People over look the massive game SWG was and never talk about the 100 features, the untold exploration of many planets, the easy leveling, the godly crafting system, and so much more swg had to offer. Its just talking about the NGE killed it. No SWG had so much more to it. We need a game like this today, they should bring it back honestly with updated combat system, better graphics, and more. Oh and bring creature handler back because you know thats the true reason you left SWG ;)

 

And TOR doesnt compare in sense of being a true mmo. SWG killed it in every aspect - features, crafting, exploration, space flight, player decorated housing, immersion, and so much more. Yeah i played TOR for a week or 2 and couldnt stand playing such a dumbed down mmo, have more respect for the star wars genre.

Comments on the red part above.

The mechanics for playing the crafting part of the game was the same after the NGE, but the game changed and became loot based, crafted items lost their importens and the user controlled economy went away with the galopping inflation.

If you played the game before the NGE, you should know how this affected the crafting community. People stating that the usefulness and fun part of crafting was the same after the NGE are ignorance and rude to the whole crafting community. Actually,  "these people to me have no clue and dont believe they actualy played the game."

 

This ^^

Let's see, decay was removed with NGE, that sure as hell affected crafting. Taking out medical crafting (and having "magic buffs for all), spice crafting, scout/ranger crafting? BE, gone? Sound familiar? I am sure that counts too :P

And then we have the devs changing the economy from player based crafting to loot based (and they even said they did this on purpose). Think that affected crafting and it's usefulness? :)

And then we have the TCG scam, before NGE, almost all new items were introduced through the crafting system. TCG - lottery based RL cash scam for items that went directly into the game. Like that wasn't a huge FU to crafters. Ships, structures, armor appearances, furniture and deco items, pets, vehicles, all put into the game for an addition charge, during they same period when crafters got maybe 1/20th as many new items to make.

And finally and for the record the NGE did change crafting itself in many ways, by dumbing things down. They did this, by removing the multiple bars of experimentation. Armor had 3 bars of experimentation before the NGE and 1 after (they also removed weapons having direct elemental damage types and thus removed the need for armor layers beyond primus). Lightsaber crafting went from 2 or 3 to 1. Weaponsmithing, same. Not to mention changing the recipes so that a lot of the bonus items that could previously go into many schematics could no longer (like every single one for weapons).

(The only catagory of crafting that was not adversely affected (beyond the TCG scam) by the NGE was space crafting, that was left alone.)

So even there, yes crafting was changed and for the worse, on top of the world that all the crafted items went into, also changed for the much worse.

Crafting in SWG and its usefulness was NOTHING after the NGE compared to what it was prior to that, and anyone disputing that is just plain wrong. Or they weren't there.

 

 

 

Can I just throw in this quote as it sums up all of the genres ills (and society's too). I want to keep this LucasArts quote alive.

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts. "There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

In a year or so, maybe Lucas will realize that SWG pre-cu was the best MMO they ever got.

200 - 250K subscriptions from a market ten times smaller than today's MMO market, and I'm not surprised if that number beats SWTOR next year.

The fiasco with the CU and NGE will haunt Lucas and the Star Wars IP for long time.

Just imagine if the time and money spent on CU and NGE had been used to fix the original game, in combination with the creative content updates applied when trying to save the NGE. What a game it could have been. 

I miss pre-NGE. It was a perfect moment in MMO history for me.

Originally posted by RefMinor
Can I just throw in this quote as it sums up all of the genres ills (and society's too). I want to keep this LucasArts quote alive.

 

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts. "There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

An all time classic.

I'll see that and raise you some selected quotes from the infamous unedited Dan Rubenfeld (senior programmer that worked on the NGE or whatever his damn title was)  "Om-Nom-Nom" blog post:

(Full text at http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/15-Star-Wars-Galaxies/14-OM-NOM-NOM)

06.12.08

Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some “ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG”, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a dick. OM NOM NOM. ( SOE's corporate culture: what they really think about their customers)

So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.... (more of the same)

 

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we fucked it up to the point of having 200k subs. (subs at time of NGE and a rather strong implication of WoW envy as the motivation for the NGE)

 

Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it. (Showing SOE didn't plan the Jedi system for jack)

 

 

We told them. “If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.”

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.  ( Showing definitively and without question that SOE didn't give a crap about anyone playing SWG) 

 

We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.

The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.

When we demonstrated it, the first comment was “Wooooah….” (Proving, rather definitively again that SOE came up with the design, code and plan for the NGE, and not LA)

 

We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation. (Proving that SOE was able to pull the NGE after implementaion, and CHOSE not to)

 

Colored comments are mine.

This is obviously not made up, everything quoted (minus the colored bits) is from the guy himself and not conjecture.

This blog post shed a LOT of light on SWG-NGE and how it came to be and a lot about SOE and what they think of their customers. It surived in this unedited form for about 3 hours or so.

All I ever hear from the SOE boosters is "You weren't there... You don't know what was said... blah blah blah)". This guy WAS there and does know what was said.. and he spilled the beans.

I suggest all the SOE apologists go read it all sometime if they have not.