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Star Wars Galaxies Correspondent - Roleplaying is Dead, Long Live Roleplaying...
MMORPG.com Star Wars Galaxies Correspondent Jef Reahard writes this editorial piece reflecting on the days of a roleplayer's paradise in Star Wars Galaxies.
A funny thing happened while I was roleplaying my way to gangster infamy on Star Wars Galaxies' Starsider server from early 2004 to mid 2006. Amidst the story arcs, the guild drama (both in-character and out-of-character), and of course the hornet's nest stirred up by Sony's New Game Enhancements, I found myself drifting slowly but inexorably away from the reason I had jumped on the whole MMORPG bandwagon in the first place: to tell stories.
Looking back, I don't know that I was ever truly a 'roleplayer,' even though I defended the play style against all comers and engaged in some particularly nasty forum jousting with various antagonists. Though I was almost always 'in-character,' even while grinding mobs, I was basically playing myself in the Star Wars universe, something that I've dreamed of doing since early childhood, and boy was it a rude awakening when I realized that the lion's share of my fellow players didn't give a bantha poodoo about back stories, character development, or immersive authenticity. My quest for full immersion was doomed from the start, given the nature of these games and the people that play them, but that didn't stop me at the time, and, though I still play Star Wars Galaxies (and two other MMORPGs) on a daily basis, and though I've made attempts to rekindle the storytelling flame in each new game, it always ends the same way: leaving me wistfully remembering the roleplay on Starsider and wondering if, not when, that magic will resurface.
;)
First, some background. I grew up with Star Wars, but I never played table top roleplay games, and therein lies part of the rub: as I met various online storytellers, I thrilled to their tales of D20 derring - do, and, while sad that I had missed out on all the fun (being something of a jock in high school, I ran with the wrong crowd, unfortunately), I was quite certain that I would more than make up for lost time when I logged into Star Wars Galaxies; a living, breathing sandbox of a virtual world teeming with other Star Wars nerds itching to live out their fantasies in a galaxy far, far away.
Its at this point that the scratching needle caroms across the 1977 Polydor Vinyl record of John Williams' seminal soundtrack, and you the reader are probably saying 'you dolt, people don't use MMORPGs to roleplay, what a naive assumption.'
You're right of course, but I was unconvinced of this in early 2004, and after soloing my way to master smuggler/master pistoleer and exploring the world alone since late beta, I joined a fledgling roleplay guild and spent the next two plus years directing story arcs, writing reams of fanfic, and generally having the time of my gaming life. In those days, Star Wars Galaxies was a far different beast from the Warcraft-clone that currently lurks under its science-fantasy skin. Roleplay was everywhere, and I can safely say that out of the 20-odd MMORPGs I've played over the years, nowhere was there as dense a concentration of dedicated storytellers and immersion enthusiasts to match the likes of Starsider in its heyday. Yeah, there were those who didn't care for the play style, and the occasional griefer, but by and large the majority of people responded to you in-character if you made the attempt, and big, active, story-driven roleplay guilds such as Cartel, Malador, The Neutron Pixies, and the Venja Mafia were everywhere.
;)
Unfortunately, it didn't last, and looking back, it couldn't, as Sony's changes, coupled with the explosion of Jedi grinders, effectively put a damper on Star Wars immersion. The game retained its non-combat charm, as entertainers, tailors, and city/housing enthusiasts remained to ply their various trades (and liven up the world) even after the NGE, but some hard core Star Wars roleplayers, myself included, became dissatisfied with both the new mechanics and the atmosphere they fostered, and began to seek greener pastures.
Even without the abortion that was the early NGE, roleplayers tend to burn twice as bright and live half as long, as the play style is a full time job if done correctly. From dealing with other players who actively disrupt immersion, to placating folks who only want to chase carrots or grind stats, to constantly having to manufacture creative ways to explain game limitations, immersive roleplaying is a challenge that few undertake, even in a world as conducive to it as Star Wars Galaxies. Heaven help you if you're actually leading a roleplay guild: the workload only intensifies, as you have to contend with all of the above, in addition to managing personalities that are, by definition, dramatic, and also find time to level and equip your characters (as well as any story alts you may be intending to spring on your audience).
;)
Given all these factors, it’s become my opinion that immersive roleplaying simply can't be done in online games with large groups of people, particularly given the current market of theme-park games where story-centric tools like those in Star Wars Galaxies are an afterthought (if they're included at all). I realize that this is subjective, depending on your definition of immersive, but for me, the limitations imposed on creative types by the game client (bind-on-equip, class/level/equipment restrictions, etc) are stifling, at best, and downright unplayable at worst. This is exponentially worse if you're playing a licensed game with an eye toward the source material (here's looking at you Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings Online), as market forces will always dictate developer decisions and realism, continuity, and source material authenticity are four-letter words because they're not considered 'fun' by those pulling the strings.
As an example, Han Solo dons stormtrooper armor and flies a YT-1300 in the Star Wars films, but because the game designers wanted to differentiate faction rewards, Rebel-aligned players could do neither of these things. The party line reasoning from the dev team was 'fun' over 'authenticity' and I always boggled at how people treated those two things as mutually exclusive. It stands to reason that if Star Wars in its original incarnation, wasn't fun, no one would have bought the game in the first place. Similarly, the invisible force field effect (otherwise known as bind-on-equip) that prevents you from picking up the pistol of your choice and squeezing the trigger), damages the immersive qualities of any online world. Some games have camouflaged it better than others, but Star Wars Galaxies' original decaying equipment system remains the best solution for player-run server economies with an eye towards the feel of a world rather than simply a game. It also, unfortunately, is despised by the instant gratification crowd (which of course makes up the majority of MMORPG players, and more than a few developers) and so it was relegated to the scrap-heap of pre-NGE systems.
;)
These pitfalls, and others too numerous to list, conspired to drive the fun out of online roleplaying for me, and, while Star Wars Galaxies does continue to cater to roleplayers more than any other game on the market (via the storyteller system and the continuing availability of customizable crafting and player housing), the game's current incarnation leaves much to be desired, and is indicative of the tantalizing frustration awaiting anyone foolhardy enough to attempt roleplay in a current generation MMORPG. In the end, I suppose most people don't want to work when they play games, level grinds notwithstanding, and make no mistake, roleplaying in an MMORPG is work, tons of it. It can be extremely rewarding, but those times are increasingly few, as MMOs have devolved from their virtual world roots into the equivalent of a social round of golf (whether you're smacking a little dimpled ball around an elitist country club or hacking apart orcs and cannibals on the slopes of Azeroth is largely semantics.
So, as I turn to rare loot-whoring and raiding during my time in Star Wars Galaxies, and log onto free-for-all PVP servers on my other games, I have to chuckle at my journey from fresh-faced roleplayer to grizzled, cynical PK-ing veteran, and long all the more for those mythical sessions of table top that I missed out on so many years ago.
- RP is dead. Long live RP.
The art of roleplaying is indeed a lost art. There are many of us from the old d20 days, which I'm sorry you missed, who graduated to the MUDs, the text styled MMOs of the late 80s and through the 90s.
It was in MUDs that you could see the transition to what we see now. As more and more d20 fans joined MUDs, you were able to immerse yourself in true roleplaying. Unfortunately, each year we moved farther and farther from roleplaying as more PS2 babies began joining our beloved MUDs who had never experienced d20 love. Griefing and ganking began to appear as more of the younger set treated the games more like a video game instead of a living novel.
Now, we have graphical MMOs and we have people who play those that don't even remember MUDs. The evolution of the PS2 babies being the rule instead of the exception is here. Player killing is all the rage and many feel that if you aren't a PvPer, then get out of their way because they are the real roleplayers. How sad they are to not have known true roleplaying.
RP is dead! Long live RP!
You know its funny...
Im 28. My first mmo was ffxi on ps2. I had a great time playign that game but there was no roleplaying into it. I was fien with that to be honest, because that game was built on being social.
after 3 years of playing ffxi i graduated to a pc mmo. Star wars. i can remember finding out abotu it and slowly losing my mind to go play because it was starwars. i wanted to be a jedi, and a smuggler, own a yt1300. travel the stars! When i played SWG for teh first time, it was so easy to play in charcater. I had a great time. Ive moved on from swg now because ive done everything there is to do in that game. but i never forget how much fun i had playing it. My best RP moments would be everything from getting married in naboo, to being captured by the imperials on dathomir, only to have my guild come rescue me. We did special events and had devs spawn mobs to go with our storylines. This is one element that no matter if you like SWG or not, it cant be rivaled. SWG had teh best storyteller abilities ever and still does. It was proof that sandbox works, as long as you give the players the tools to do so.Sandbox is where RP lives!
Jef,
My best RP experiences were in SWG. I only stayed around for a year or so; and that was because of the RP. I too was on Starsider. Now, I am a more casual RPer in CoH. It still is great to see folks have creative fun in these games.
Amen to that piece, Jef. I just had the same discussion with friends about City of Heroes last night, I can relate to pretty much everything you said.
I also loved the RP in SWG... as a member of the 488th LED, I remember very clearly playing with the Cartel and the Pixies, etc... also, The Guardians... those were some great times.
I've moved on, even going so far as joining The Guardians, our mortal enemies in game, for WoW play. Still, I can say there hasn't been a day I haven't looked back fondly on those days on Starsider, in Vagabond's Rest, etc.
I only dabbled with roleplay on SWG. And I am of the "PS2 Baby" generation, as another posted put it. I'm 19 (I was 15-17 when i was playing SWG), however I did tag along with some really great roleplay on SWG. I played as an Imperial on the server, Chilastra. I used to go along for a "Jedi hunt" with a roleplay guild. We used to just search around for participating Jedi and when we did find them, we questioned them to find if they were, indeed Jedi. They used to use Jedi mind tricks on us, and sometimes it would end with a lightsabre fight.
I also used to play as a tax collecting Storm trooper in Tatooine. Some would play along, some wouldn't, but it was always great fun.
People always seem to pull the age card, I won't have another rant about it... But it's a generalization and most of the time it's less to do with age and more to do with intellect or hobbies and interests.
In any case, SWG was the only game where I felt really compelled to roleplay. As someone else said, they gave the players the right tools to immerse themselves and really get absorbed into the world of Star Wars. I haven't played another modern game which has that same immersion since. I played UO briefly, and I could definitely imagine some great roleplay moments there too! Ryzom is perhaps the only modern(ish) MMO where you could roleplay quite nicely. It has some great story telling but still doesn't have as many roleplaying tools as SWG did (And still does really)
CoX seems to have the most thriving roleplay community, and I did try a bit of it. However, the CoX world just has nothing on Star Wars. It's hard to roleplay a superhero when everyone else is also a superhero. It's just not a great setting for roleplay. But nevertheless, the kind of people who play CoX are inclined to roleplay, so it's your best bet if you're also that way inclined.
I'll never claim to be a real RP'er, but I remember the immersion of SWG and I loved it. Like the Op I bascially played myself and met and married my husband in-game. It worked so well we did it for real two years later.
I can remember being so involved in the game that I had to play at certain times because there were guild activities and hunting parties and all manner of things that I wanted to be part of. It was honestly a second part of my life that required just as much attention and upkeep as my real social life.
With the games I play now it doesn't really matter when I'm on because nobody's waiting for or expecting me. When I'm in a guild I'm just another member to bolster the roster. It's been quite a few games since I've made any friends worth remembering. My point being I've never been as 'into' a game as I was back when I started SWG (Intrepid server!) and by now I'm really starting to doubt I'll ever find a 'home' quite like the one I had there.
Leet kiddies ftl....................as usual
There is still active RP on Starsider, not as much as it once was, but still there, and still having a blast. The other night, just a basic event, we loaded up on a yt1300, and ran a smuggling mission to Ord Mandel. We ended up having a run in the bar with some characters, who tried to take out one of our group due to a past run in with them on Tat. A fight ensued, which was great. We were able to escape to our ship, and then out fight, and out run them back to the drop off point. It was just a great RP event.
My best RP experiences were never in an MMO. They were online at White Wolf's website on their character chat rooms. There were no graphics other than the one you found to represent your character somewhere on the net and even that one couldn't actually be shown on the chat, you had to add it to the character descriptor so people could click on the link and go look. There was no sound. There was only text on the screen. We got really good at describing just enough that it could paint pictures in all of our heads of people, places, and things that didn't even exist.
And honestly, I think thats how I still prefer it. I'd play there still but I don't like the new game and the whole site is now moderated by the company so you either have to play the new version of the World of Darkness (which I loath), or be part of an unmoderated chat full of twinks, powergamers, and nutjobs.
But there's something to be said about not having everything done for you, and simply allowing your imagination to do the work of putting it all together. Imagination can sometimes make things much more real because you aren't relying on other people to put THEIR vision on it.
This is is a two for one;
Yes this may sound like a " NGE = epic fail ever" post but .....
I played SWG since before JTLS, Almost near the beginning, and I miss the game I truly loved. I had a Medic wookie that mostly inhabited Mos Eisley ( and the med center felt like my Doctor's office). I would be healing combat damage and the " black bars" chatting with people hearing their stories of combat, sitting up a "traige" system with low level medics as I was hoping to have my character a Doctor. I eventualy found a guild and I created a trader character as that's one aspect the guild needed, I was the tickerer and I played as one. I also looked up to the other members for support for hides, trading for gear of what I could make.
My favourite times was in MO, or Eisley. RP'ing " the spirited Mon Cal Scientist / entrepreneur". It wasn't a forced RP, just a natural one. "Wallid " just not the combatant type ( he tried once, but he was squeemish for battle).
*PVP moment*
I came out of T2 space mission, pvp mode and forgot I was set as such, I walked into MO, and stood by my guild memebers chatting away, when I was PM's " Hey friend Fish, your Flagged..." I was "<beep> kay I gotta go run to the recruiter" My guildmate, ever the Wookie Scoundrel and having a hatred for Imperial said " wait, see that Jedi over there? ". And the last thing I heard was the light sabre lighting up, I was on my back and an all out brawl broke out with the combat cry " you killed our crafter!"
My other greatest RP/ pvp moments was with McElroy. (on farstar server), Redneck Zebrek Imperial soldier. Only pilot tro have have a Gun rack in the back. Started out Marksmen, made his wayup the ranks to Squadleader (Desert Squad). Guild at the time was a mixed with mostly neutrals. This aspect gave for interesting RP as the rebs ether laid low or had confrontational issues with McElroy, or Elroy had issues with the neutrals (He kept law n order). The "raids" I saw in those days ( and up to the NGE) made WoW 25man kara runs look like a 5 man run in BG. Huge epic battles at various player cities. Battles that took planning and thought. Attack and counter attacks. It was beautiful, it was fun, it was crazy.
* NGE
NGE hit, yes there was the server exodus. NGE turned the game I knew and loved into a single player game. Crafting was left to be desired, there was low turn over of items, issues with the new crafting setup. The FPS style combat was lack luster, and honest I would not suggest this game to anyone where previously I would have due to the community, the action level, the customization. One can tell that someone seen the Error in their ways and are trying to fix what they broke by all the new enhancements, skills, and abilities, but it still lacks, it feels like an Anarchy online, the WoW like pvp fests, the ladder climb / hold your hand missions.
I've attempted severial times to come back. Officer was not like the old squadleader (squadleader I felt like I was group leader or a pally), crafting still has it's up and downs not at the high standard as the old system. Smuggler I like what they did, but they need to expand on it more. it's like reading a book and the author leaves you hanging and doesn't bother to write a second book.
I wasn't the only RP'r before NGE, there was ALOT of others. and we hada hoot :)
God I miss those days.
That's where mmo's as roleplay environments break down, at least for me. Imagination is the lion's share of it, and the unimaginative treadmill design of the games is something I found myself having to constantly fight against. After a while, it feels more like work than fun.
Glad to hear that there is still some fun roleplay going on on Starsider, however. I still play there as well, but I've taken to spending the majority of my time collection grinding or hanging out in space. The ground game doesn't feel like Star Wars anymore.
That's where mmo's as roleplay environments break down, at least for me. Imagination is the lion's share of it, and the unimaginative treadmill design of the games is something I found myself having to constantly fight against. After a while, it feels more like work than fun.
Glad to hear that there is still some fun roleplay going on on Starsider, however. I still play there as well, but I've taken to spending the majority of my time collection grinding or hanging out in space. The ground game doesn't feel like Star Wars anymore.
In some ways it doesn't. But its still closer than the space game is :-)
I really miss the SWG RP. It was fun and it died with the game. Really sad. I have never experienced that kind of RP in any other mmorpg i have played after SWG, not even close.........
I know exactly what you mean. I too was heavily invested in the game as a sort of second social life, and that experience has yet to be equaled in any other community (which is both good and bad, heh). I don't know if any mmo will ever re-capture that, simply because it seems that very few people want to play that way.
I've tried Ryzom, as an earlier poster suggested, and the community there is reminiscent of early SWG, but for whatever reason its not the same. It may have something to do with expectations and the oft-quoted 'it'll never be as good as your first.'
Its not all doom and gloom however, as SWG is still enjoyable enough for me to log in, as are a couple of other games currently on the market, but I do wish that someone would cater to hardcore roleplayers. I suspect I'm not the only one who would be willing to pay premium subscription prices for something similar to what SWG used to offer.
I played on Starsider as did all my friends and my guild and we really did enjoy a lot of the RP.
You know theres another game that has a lot of that classic RP going on. It's not a new game by any means but it is free (at least the basic non-expanded game.) The game actually boasts more RP tools and support then SWG did back in the day. That MMOG is Anarchy Online.
You might have to look around for the RPers, but they are usually in the games hotspots. Reets Retreat (a club with a glass dance floor and private rooms of every type,) or a few other places based in the territories of the Clan or Omni Tec. The game actually has a very distinct and rich backstory that continues to this day and thus theres a lot of RP between the two factions even (it's not a WoW or DAoC were your faction is your enemy based off race and you cant talk to them. In AO you can talk, party, even hunt together. But for the RP sector theres some serious political RP that goes on.
On that note let me add;
OT Stinks!
Clans Forever!
The only good RP I ever had in an mmo was SWG. It's sad because the characters that I created in the precu swg died with nge. I think most of us that played have lots of stories we could tell.
Such a waste of a game when I think about it. SWG did not deserve the fate that it recieved. It should be going stronger than ever with some solid expansions under it's belt by now. Instead we have the NGE and the hubris that is SOE.
It would be interesting if someone fixed SWG one day. So much time has gone by now though.
/raises Hand
Old school Table Top RP. DnD got my start but I was one of those that bought Star Wars RPG when it launched Oct. of 1987. I have played many types of RPGs but Star Wars is my first passion in to pop culture hobbies. When SWG launched, I took my favorite RPG character and translated him there. It was easy to do. He has evolved some since his start and I still favor him most of my toons.
The NGE put me back in a void I found with RPGs. I have friends that want to RP every weekend for the thrill of power leveling and boosting thier ego's over Table top. I have matured enough to see it for what it is and just wanted to avoid that rut. SWG offered a new direction to get a RP fix and open up adventure with many many others with my character(s). The NGE and other new games just put that Ego ride and power leveling back to the fore front, for me, at the cost of the immersion and community. Don't get me wrong as I love improving my characters but I can do without boosting other's egos because thier life is boring otherwise. There is nothing wrong with PVP and competetion but it shouldn't be the only element available for end game development.
I still play SWG and CoX, but marketing is killing immersion and community in favor of unending development of "fun". What ever the definition of "fun" they use this quarter.
I have to disagree with the OP here (that's the article author, not Stradden :p). RP is /not/ dead. It's SWG that's dead and simply refusing to recognize it. We're well past time for someone to take a shotgun to that shambling corpse and make the world a better place.
/endrant, sorry
Look, I'm a roleplayer, and yes, I took part in many of those tabletop sessions the OP longs for. I still play tabletop from time to time, though the group I run with nowadays isn't so much into roleplay, more's the pity. I actively roleplay in my chosen MMO, City of Heroes/Villains, whenever I can. Even if I'm solo in a mission, in my head, I'm playing my character. Until very recently, I was part of a RP supergroup on the Virtue server that had some outstanding storylines going, very much fun. Unfortunately, one particular asshat ruined it for me, and I'm now SG-less...but that's how it goes.
Some games are, I think, inherently more hostile to RP than others. EVE Online, for instance. Gimme a break. I know some people supposedly manage it, but how they do it without hallucinogens is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, I love the game (despite its uber-grindiness and PvP-centricity)...I just can't get into it. If some EVE-RP'er were to contact me with the intent to prove me wrong, though... *hinthint* ;)
Ironically, I think WoW has some of the best untapped potential for RP. The varied environments, the different races & factions...and yes, once you get past the jarring cartooniness of it all, it's actually quite pretty. Unfortunately, it'll never happen. Not until the dead rise from their graves, the rivers and seas flow red with blood, cats and dogs live together...mass hysteria! :p
I played pre-CU SWG, and I miss it like nothing else. No other game has come close for me when it comes to pure immersiveness. I will never forget Mazzik, the Teras Kasi (would-be) Master/Ranger/Medic who lived in a grand mansion, all alone on Dantooine, simply because he could. And I agree: Jedi destroyed SWG, and SOE/LA finished the job with the thermonuclear turd they called the NGE.
Still...RP isn't dead. I'm sorry to hear the OP has lost it, and I sincerely hope he finds it again. The alternative is endless, pointless grinding...and I'm sorry, but I already have a job in RL, and I refuse to pay $15/month to work another one.
In other words, its dead. Sure you'll find some isolated pockets of it here and there, but large numbers of people actively supporting it? Nope. Games developed with it as a primary focus? Nope. Perhaps I should've titled the article MMO RP is Dead, as I'm sure the table top variety is not, but for every MMO roleplayer like you and I, there are ten thousand 'lol u rp wut?' types filling up the servers. SWG spoiled me, I suppose, as I now have high expectations of a roleplay community with each new game that I venture into.
Pre-cu SWG was so immersive, I always forgot I was playing a game!
I am not an RP'er at all, but in SWG that went completely naturally. That is what made the game so good and addictive ( I often got out of bed at night just to logon for a bit! ).
Since then, not one MMO has been produced that made roleplaying so easy that everyone automatically participates. I've tried dozens ... and all they do is tell me " Go here and do that ..."
But in all honesty, SWG was bad for my health ;) ... leading a guild for creature handlers chewed up all my free- and not free time.
I don't believe Roleplaying is dead ... it's only almost impossible to find a good game these days that caters for it.
SWG is dead.
Long Live Roleplaying!
Somewhere else....
Yeah what I loved about it as well. you couldn'thelp but give your characters personalities, outfits, and attitudes. then there was customization of houses and Vehicles. I knew a wookie that based his Struct crafter around buildings and " home Renovations" (And he was Goood...), the Dance parties, the escort runs with the combatants. City battles( the best imho because it felt like war, to bad we couldn't destory houses ;) ). the hardcore dark jedi, the higher then thou light jedi. mercenaries, scoundrels.
RP is a mind set, it's a community, it's character, it's customization.. it's attitude.
Oh well... think of it this way... soon we'll have the Knights of the Old Republic MMO to play.
Yep, I lived in a rp community on Starsider, we had several rp cantina's going on and a fairly large town. Unfortunately I was a creature master and of course was devastated by NGE. I tried to continue to play but the town became a ghost town within a month. The change was just too radical for everyone, it was no longer the great rp environment of the past.
I have been back several times, I still maintain a station account. Despite what some posters say, Starsider is dead, deader, deadest of all the servers. Trying to find anyone to play with is almost impossible and finding a crafter is even more impossible.
Maybe someday a developer will actually get off the Wow clone bandwagon and make an environment that actually attracts the rpers back.
I'm sorry...but Whine more.
It has been Daym near 3 years since the NGE changed everything, and while I miss AFKing professions for the Hologrind or AFK'ing dancer Xp for the exchange in the Village for Force XP....and I miss Bol's to the North Spin Groups...
I am sick of you all whining.
Would I change it back? Yes.
Would I keep the new content? Yes.
Will it ever happen? No
So get over it
{ Mod Edit }
You should take your own advice. If you don't like these posts then don't read them. You whining about the whiners will not help.
rofl... I couldn't have said that better myself. In fact, I've said that on here many times, and been reported so I hope your post stays. Its something these people need to hear. They act like their lives are over because the nge hit. It gets very tiring.
your right that current games dont do anything to aid in roleplay.
but even with this all you have to do is try to droleplay just a bit and more often than not people will at least try to roleplay back.
your right about the themepark commercialization on most games that are all about volume and to hell with any quality.
they create games that are dumb and easy alot like a arcade game they have little if any chalange or suprise for me and I can see a future where I dont play MMOs any more.
developers seem to think that quality roleplay worlds cant be profitable, but there wrong,, a well designed world actually builds game loyalty that rarely exists today.
I would really love it if they got awayfrom the shooting gallery games or fighting arenas and created alternate universes.
some of the bigest things I look for in a new game is if food and water are important to the game world,, imagine just crossing a desert in most MMOs also I look for weather and climate blizzard cold, burning heat, rain, wind storms, after this are chaotic acts of nature,, crop blights, floods, volcanos, earthquakes, fires, ect all add to the the immersion of a universe.
I would love a game where you are droped on a world with limited supplies and know nothing about it at all, where you have to cooperate with others to build a society and learn about the new world your in, hopefully a world that is organic and not hemed in so if you see a lake you can fish in it or swim it or build a boat and cross it.
I dont mean where the game excludes grind players just have choices, and example is a garden a war monger can drop seed and water and go off adventuring and return to a default crop,, but a roleplayer can tend his crop and he will get a higher yeald for the extra work.
that is my wish.
I understand totally. I have always been disapointed at the lack of roleplaying in the MMOs I haave tried (SWG, pre-NGE being one of them). Sometimes you get a good group who will facilitate it, but more often than not ... nada.
I recently uninstalled my WoW from my PC for just that reason. When WoW came out I wanted to be part of the world. I love the history and lore of the world of Azeroth. The relationships between characters like Arthas & Lady Sylvanas. The history of the Orcs and their time with the Demon driven burning crusade. I wanted to be a character in that world. I wanted to play an Undead Warlock who recently broke away from the Lich-King's control and was trying to find a new existance in unlife, a noble Orc warrior trying to make a name for himself among the tribes, a Human descendant of those betrayed by Medivh, who was trying to cleanse the world of the unclean forsaken...
I'm sure you get the idea.
Instead ... I was surrunded by people discussing the mathematics of the combat modifiers in open chat, constantly challenged to duels by 12 year olds who do nothing all day but play the game and scream "Noob!" , and insult your mother when you'd rather actually READ the text of the quests your taking instead of fight their Rogue...
Again, you get the idea.
And yet, I am now trying Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Will it be any different? ...probably not. Why do I still try? Because I have hope ... I have hope, and I'm hopelessly addicted to the MMO experience. I have literally been waiting for MMOs since I was a kid. I remember coming up with the idea for a computer based virtual/perpetual world where you could play your (at the time I was playing pen & paper games like D&D, R.I.F.T.S. and Shadowrun) character among thousands of other players. Now here it is, and I have gone through more than 20 MMOs to find my favorite one. SWG (pre-NGE, although I didn't mind the Combat Upgrade too much ... no more robotic doctor buff lines!), WoW, and EQ have come the closest. Now I'm trying W.A.R. for my fantasy fix, and I'm waiting for Stargate Worlds for my Sci-Fi fix.
I still have hope...
Jef, I take off my hate...I mean, hat. This is a great article, perhaps the best I have read concerning SWG in ages. I would play along with the roleplayers when I happed to cross their city on Tatooine (the one with the really nice cantina, what was it's name, you also did the krayt skull quest nearby). They scared the hell out of me the first time I came upon them (4 months after launch). I eventually played along only to find my toon in jail for the evening. In GC, everyone was laughing their asses off at my misfortune, we had a policy not to insult RP, and to play along when it came about.
I think that city was the first place I visit every time I go back to see what the game is like. My core guildies are strangely still there (we were a space faring guild). The RP is nowhere to be found...
"Even without the abortion that was the early NGE, roleplayers tend to burn twice as bright and live half as long, as the play style is a full time job if done correctly."
A good article with only one item I disagree with, that provided above. I believe Role-Players are play on much longer than of the typical gamer. The reasons for this is that Role-Players can spend time doing something which really serves no purpose for playing the game; and example, having two RP'ers sit down at a table and begin plotting out loud; or start up a bar fight, while hurling one-lines at each other. So there is that added bit of fun.
RP'ers tend to be more loyal and passionate about the game they are involved with. They like communities and as long as the communities are there, they will stay even if the game mechanics have bugs.
However what Role-Players need that the majority of MMO's do not provide is dynamic story content by developers. Sure it is a good thing for players to provide content, but they also need the developers to provide content and to let the player have impact to the story. After all, role-playing games allow players to change the outcome of the campaign. Yet in MMO's this is not possible. SWG is an example of a static theme-park. Players cannot change the story-arc of Star Wars. Oh wait, there is the Secret Rebel Base... but it is still at the same spot that everyone knows about. So why hasn't the Emperor conducted a strike?
The technology to allow players to impact the story-arc is available, even in a massive environment. A problem I see is that a number of game developers have never played table-top RPG's... Technically growing up on C-RPG's where as long as there is level advancements, then the computer game is a RPG.
I agree with Melsinda (:waves:)
I was on the same server with the same group of people for ages, and the RP community had it's ups and downs. The biggest problems I had was each "community" seemed exclusive of any other, so there were always conflicting ideas of what was going on. Would have been nice to have a server wide concensus and even maybe an overarching server "storyline"
But yes, the update to the game killed it for me as it did for many.
-Fell Shadarach - Master Smuggler
-Nichos Plakar - Master Bounty Hunter
Great article - rare to see such good writing outside Newsweeks and Times'. Still, I'd like to suggest you style wrtiing guides to correct a few things like too long sentences and excessive use of adjectives.
SWG has a place in my heart. It was one of my 1st mmo's, briefly trying EQ before that. Once I found out there was a Star Wars game, I was hooked, even before I had read what it was about or that it was an MMO. As a day 2 swg'er I found many days and nights of roleplay over 4years, with these highlights:
Agamemnon-NST-Kauri, loner, crafter, travelling salesman, got interested in bio-engineering field, made millions, lost it all on cheap girls in Mos Vegas, pan handled for a while in Mos Eisley when he was down on his luck. Worked his way back into the medical profession, joined the rebellion after seeing the Imperials slaughter the townspeople of Anchorhead. Became a covert operative, scouting out imperial bases and coordinating terrorist attacks against said bases during cover of night with a small special elite team of Agents. Watched an assasination happen during a wedding, wounded severely during the battle of Ruestess. Retired with full medical benefits. Opened up a Bio-engineering lab with a chef friend that had grander ideas. Took over general management operation of a strip club.
Indagadadaveeda-NST-Kauri-Crafter, part time dance enthusiast. Became a pretty busy chef, opened up a shop near anchorhead which spread to several chain stores across the known galaxy. Opened up several houses of ill-repute, with full time wait staff, illicit drug use, band gigs and nightly shows/dancers, manager of the strip joint. Arrested by Imperial Investigator for criminal activity, charges included racketeering, spice smuggling, prostitution, and illegal gambling. Completed 6months incarceration at Naboo Correctional Facility and reprocessing before returning to Tattooine to re-open a single strip joint with a few tasteful dancers....last seen being shoved into a speeder by suspected Jabba henchman.
Mordacacca-Smuggler-Chimera-Escaped trandoshan slave captivity, bummed around Mos Eisley doing odd jobs and muscle for hire. Was picked up in Mos Entha during a run in with local law enforcement, who ironically found smuggled spice in the saddlebags of his firends(borrowed) speeder. Was arrested, detained temporarily at the transfer point in Mos Eisley Imperial Detention Center. Caught a flu bug from a fellow prisoner, was transferred to Dathomir Prison only to escape during the aftermath of a Rebel Raid on the prison. Returned to Mos Eisley, accidentally helping spread an epidemic on 2 planets, and started working in the underworld circles for Lady V, had a run in with Jabba henchmen and forced to go to work for Jabba smuggling items to Talus from Tattooine for the Hutts. Had a legit front man business partner who helped fund expeditions but also sold items for him on the blackmarket.
Bilcli-Merchant-Chimera-a former jazz musician, played some small gigis in the Bestine/Anchorhead/Eisley scene. Peddled a little contraband now and then. Got clean in rehab after an overdose of spice, nearly died of an epidemic in Mos Eisley due to a low immune system from spice. Attended a funeral of a close friend that was actually interrupted by sand people. Ran away screaming like a coward. Went into collectibles and opened up a shop called "Needful Things" just outside of Mos Eisley. Hired staff and made a nice little profit selling certain "hard to come by" items on the market that we're of questionable sources.
I had countless others, 5 accounts and 8 characters per account, all but 3 leveled to max by the time I had had enough of the NGE. It was a really great game, I loved it, but it changed to much for me and after losing a guild of 478 people to just 3 online...I could no longer login and enjoy the roleplay. The new enhancements didn't help me much in that regard either, I do not like fps's which essentially that's what it became, it was far to difficult to roleplay any longer. I'm a long time roleplayer from Chainmail, to DND/ADD, Gurps, SW, Shadowrun, Traveller and Hero. I miss those days as well and especially the sci-fi ones. Now that I have an opportunity to develop a game, I give my all to get just a bit of that "ole roleplayer" mentality back into my game as we design it from the ground up. It's always in my mind.
Long live Roleplay!
Come to LotRO RPP'ers.
If you're in North America, I recommend the Landroval server (unofficial RP server). Avoid Brandywine, saw alot of the leet kids there.
The world isn't as involved as old SWG, but it's getting there. At least it has some of the world sim feel of SWG.
Nice to see there are still some roleplayers out there. When I am in game, no matter which game it is, I am in character. Perhaps my "in character" doesn't completely fit the genre of the game but I am in character. Each of my characters have their own personality. Some are witty, some grumpy, some curious and adventurous.
I have a character that is currently exploring a vast world and is very inquisitive about the things she finds and the people she meets. I sit here behind my keyboard giggling my arse off at the reactions she gets.
"I have a level 70 main." random player says.
"You have a main? Like, in your pocket or something?" I would say.
"Um, no I have a level 70 Warrior." he replies.
"You own a warrior, and he is level 70?" I said.
"Yes."
"Where is he?" I say while looking around.
And so on...
Anyway, I find it fun. SWG, was a great place for this type of play. Unfortunately the many changes drove me away.
I am looking forward to an MMO set in the star wars universe to role-play in.
SWG is Star Wars flavored, not Star Wars.
S*D
This game is dead would be more accurate.
Mm, having played SWG myself for about a year (far past the NGE so I never got to play it before that), and having RP just about all the time, I do have to agree that the community wasn't really the greatest
But for anyone really looking for RP, hands down I have to say to come to City of Heroes (Virtue Server). No way I can really say how much RP there is (as well as some not so good, though its avoidable). Its just a hugely well put together situation since just about any character can fit in the CoH universe (Fantasy, Space, etc) with some modifications. Though the best RP you will find in Super Groups obviously.
Obviously its still a lot of hit and miss, just depends if you happen to join a less then great SG, but really, by far you should try CoH.
I never considered myself a RP'er in SWG but found myself doing it quite often. I tended to do things on my own or in small groups, whether hunting krayt, kimo's, or doing corvette runs. Not much RP went on then, just chatting with friends. When my bars would go black and I had to find Doc's or Ent's, that is when the RP would kick in and I liked it very much. The odd times when one or more of us would be flagged after killing Imp NPC's and opposing faction players would race by then stop for PVP would bring about RP also.
I remeber many times when I would have to get new armor and weapons made and Haanoverfist would give me grief for breaking his creations and threaten to charge me double to replace them. So many different ways to become immersed in RP even when you didn't consider yourself a RP'er. Things changed and did away with most of the game aspects that promoted RP, though some players still strive to keep it alive when SOE tries to make it harder for them.
With games like WoW where you find yourself grinding to earn funds to raid and in raids you are using VoN programs during raids to coordinate, you find very little if any RP'ing occuring. I'll keep waiting for another game to come out that offers all the things that made SWG worth not just playing, but being a part of the community.
Tomrin Alindale - Scylla Server (RIP)
Kraig Tarlson - Scylla Server (RIP)
Few points about topic:
1. When I first meet RPers in Eisley it was my mos memerable moment in SWG EVER. Not one instance, not all things devs added in NGE is worth 1/10 of that moment.
2. Too bad SOE wont bring back old pre NGE servers for RP community
3. I think, that maybe if those guys who work on SWG emulator ever manage to get online oroginal game and open full RP server than that old RP feeling will be back.
Let's hope they wil make it
SOE did not understand that I was only roleplaying about 4 years ago but with the lack of players on most of the SWG servers these days , one would have to come up with some idea of amusing themselves.
Roleplaying that you are on a single player game - I can see that.
i wanted to RP in SWG but i came right when the hologrind began. even the coveted preCU was not RP friendly. i tried to RP a novice scout.., now i'm a PK spy who never /replies, chats, or accepts invites..
SWGs community, new or old, will suck any RP spirit you have out of you, and replace it with a jaded thirst for virtual blood, a craving for cheap GCW points, and a hunger for the most hateful of hate tells.
Never RPed in MMO's, that's what I play pen and paper games for (also my typing skills leave much to be desired). I'm sure the author could find a group to learn them with if he lives in even a medium sized city in the states. Game shops usually have groups the play in house and welcome newcommers.
What a great piece on role-playing in MMO's, /applaud.
I enjoyed role-play on occasion, with a particular group of folks that were really into that. I also did a lot of adventuring with non-roleplayers.
Things that helped roleplay for me, and immersion in general were the early option to equip any weapon, and use various types of armour. I also liked the apprentice system that linked you up with others in your profession that had a higher level of skill. I loved the active pub life in the cantinas, and felt this was encouraged by systems like mind buffs and healing of battle fatigue. Having camps that allowed certain buffs and heals also added to role-play, as did going to the med-centers for healing.
All of the diverse professions with their interdependent systems, the realistic crafting, buying and selling of goods also helped. I loved going to tailors for outfits for upcoming events (like ingame weddings), had to have a tux right? lol :). Gun shopping was one of my favourite pastimes. I also loved hunting to get meat for a chef friend of mine. He'd then make the best foods and drinks to help me be a better hunter. Very, very cool, very immersive, and great for role-playing.
I think someone got the idea that people don't like this in a videogame, and tbh, I just think they're wrong. I don't know anyone that said, "wow this immersion really sucks." People loved it. What they didn't love was being unable to complete their quests, having targets spawn in trees, or trying to use skills that didn't seem to work properly. They also didnt' like quests that consisted of gunning down 10 guys standing in a field around a flag that was supposed to represent an enemy base.
I really think SOE and LEC got some bad marketting research that led them to do what they did to their game. I could go into the flawed sampling design and confirmation bias in the results, but I'd probably even bore myself with that. I do hope, though, that some MMO company with an attractive IP (Ryzom looks kinda like this, but I don't know what a "Ryzom" is) realizes the great potential in immersive game systems like SWG used to have. I'm kinda hoping that StarTrek Online will have immersive elements to it. I guess time will tell :).
I have to agree with this. I play CoH on Liberty mainly. Virtue is notorious for its role-play community. If you're not a role-player, people in game warn you not to play on that server lol.
rofl... I couldn't have said that better myself. In fact, I've said that on here many times, and been reported so I hope your post stays. Its something these people need to hear. They act like their lives are over because the nge hit. It gets very tiring.
I just don't understand why you guys would keep reading threads then that talk about the "good old days" etc.. If it bugs you so much, why read it?
If other people want to discuss something that matters to them, why intrude and tell them they're idiots?
Do you go out of your way to listen in on others when they talk about things that don't interest you in rl? Do you jump into the conversation you dislike and tell people to shut up and call them names?
It really seems like this is what you're doing here.
Man I so agree. I've been playing SWG, MxO, and even Second Life and I rarely if ever find dull immersion. Even those that are "RP'rs" spend alot of time simply chatting ooc about their new toys. In SL you would think this would be custom built for full immersion but not really. Even there it is all pvp or raunchy based rp. Never a mixture or anythign that resembles LIFE.
But I still search. I found that when i couldn't find what I needed I simply created it. I did on sl and I am trying on SWG. It is really hard to get people to slow down and see the beauty of SWG. I know the changes the devs made years ago made things difficult but I feel it really shouldn't matter...not to a RP'r. So any low level characters out there (Imperial or Rebel) or any others, feel free. I am will to do what ever is needed to form a group of pure RP's. We do not have to be o the same side, nor do we even have to mission or grind. RP is about more than just the moment...it is about the association the story of this person and that person. In my humble opinion.
Rex Obviate
vREXv Obviate on starsider.
AFK'ing is not RP'ing.. it is AFK'ing, your points are moot
To all the fellow roleplayers - from SWG days or otherwise... here's hoping we'll all find a new home soon, developed by the kings of RP video gaming, BioWare.
Cheers
i disagree completely. EVE is the only game where i can roleplay, because it is the game that gives more power&options to the player. i can be evil, really evil, or i can be good. i can be a thief, or i can be a pirate. and on every case, the game gives me tools to really commit to my choice.
for example, how can i roleplay a thief if i cant steal? thats something most mmorpgs forbid, stealing from other players. or, how can i be a pirate or an assassin if i cant fight anybody anywhere without having to compare our levels? what is the reason for pirating if there is no loot to recover?
not only that, fighting for resources and territory gives another powerful excuse to roleplay. there is a reason to fight the other corporations. you want what they got.
meanwhile, RP on WoW, or EQ, or even LOTRO, is only an excuse to speak with "thee"s and "thou"s. but options are very limited. you can only attack those of the opposing faction. you can only advance through fighting. i mean, how interesting. i can be a healer, but to gain XP i need to kill. no XP for healing. how can i roleplay then? also, the lack of non-fighting classes. i cant be a full crafter. i need to advance my fighting levels to advance my non-fighting skills. that is stupid.
open-ended, skill based mmorpgs are RP heaven. WoW is as far as can be from there.
i disagree completely. EVE is the only game where i can roleplay, because it is the game that gives more power&options to the player. i can be evil, really evil, or i can be good. i can be a thief, or i can be a pirate. and on every case, the game gives me tools to really commit to my choice.
for example, how can i roleplay a thief if i cant steal? thats something most mmorpgs forbid, stealing from other players. or, how can i be a pirate or an assassin if i cant fight anybody anywhere without having to compare our levels? what is the reason for pirating if there is no loot to recover?
not only that, fighting for resources and territory gives another powerful excuse to roleplay. there is a reason to fight the other corporations. you want what they got.
meanwhile, RP on WoW, or EQ, or even LOTRO, is only an excuse to speak with "thee"s and "thou"s. but options are very limited. you can only attack those of the opposing faction. you can only advance through fighting. i mean, how interesting. i can be a healer, but to gain XP i need to kill. no XP for healing. how can i roleplay then? also, the lack of non-fighting classes. i cant be a full crafter. i need to advance my fighting levels to advance my non-fighting skills. that is stupid.
open-ended, skill based mmorpgs are RP heaven. WoW is as far as can be from there.
I agree with you. I do think SWG does give tools for great rp or even what I like to call immersive grinding (for lack of a better phrase). My wife and I have had a great time rp'ing the legacy missions with a few new friends...We do the missions as group in character and cruize around visiting planets and bars during off times. As a whole we are in character 24/7 and when we come across others who are same we mingle.
I think some people look for a certain kind of structured rp rather than just "live". Either is fun but i enjoy being the Bounty Hunter or Smuggler and never knowing what I could run across.
Sure I am always up for structure. In fact a just made a friend I will rp with. Basically he has his character and I have ine and we live our lives with the inention of them crossing paths in the near and far future. I love the slow burn.
Hope to see others.
Rex
Maybe we cant put CCP and George Lucas in a room for how ever many years it would take to get the job done right.
Id miss EVE but a real Star Wars MMO would be incredible.
S*D
First off I wish to say thank you for your article. I also wish to applaud those old SWGers who still, to this day, mourn their loss. My husband and I, as original SWGers, share your pain. We, too, cheerfully spent our paychecks (3 accounts) to be part of a world full of so much more than killing orcs and grinding levels. As first a master creature handler and then a master bio-engineer it was a sad day when SOE came to our house on Chilastra and personnally shot all of my pets in the head with a gun called the CU and a silencer called an NGE.
Of course we have spent the rest of our game days looking for another RP game, including games mentioned by others in this thread, but so far we have failed.
Still hope lives eternal but what I don't understand is why no other game developer has heard our cries? It seems to me that a new game comes out almost weekly (ok monthly) yet no attempt has been made to appeal to a ready make, eager to pay, clientile such as the one SOE turned their collective noses on (I was there the night all the playersr complained in game about the changes and were booted out of Theed and several other towns).
Still in all articles such as this one may someday make some dev see the light. Devs if you doubt me look around the net.. there are still, after all these years, websites devoted to the tailors or architects or CH's like me from the old SWG. Want to walk down memory lane? Go check out the Galaxy Girls of SWG website.. it's a touch of the old days (but then so is my avatar) or do a search on YouTube and watch players in the cantinas havinig the time of their lives. /sigh
I was doing some research on my old hometown of Vagabond's Rest on Starsider and found this article.
Mandash Grim is the name, a crusty old freetrader captain (who didn't actually have a ship for a year or so until JtL came out), and one of the founders of old VR.
Some folks might be interested to know that with the recent voluntary, free, server transfers Starsider is way out on top in terms of population. Roleplayers everywhere.