Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by legendsolo

Originally posted by xDayx

5)Full Loot (do items even have durability without the option to repair them?)

more casual stuff is being added to AA lately, durability is to hardcore.

So no durability because only crafters liked that idea? So craters get crapped on again. Durability is in so many games and not a huge deal. The amount of money you make from quests, loot, missions, selling stuff you are telling me they cant afford a few $$$ to repair an item? Seriously?

Going to be another loot based economy? Or did i misread that?

 

First i will tell you the experiments with the repair system, durability was always present part of the items:

1. until CBT4, to repair an item you had to go to a blacksmith and pay him gold to do it.

2. end of CBT4, they added a new system to experiment with, in this system to repair an item you had to sacrifice another item (using one item to repair another item), some way of item sink, but eventually they went back to:

3. repair items with gold, and the blacksmith.

 

Another thing Song is talking about is how to upgrade the items, and that looks like this, you craft a level 20 item, use that item and more resources to craft the level 24 item, then again use that item+mats to craft the level 30 item... this way up to level 50 item. There is a chance that the crafting will fail and the item gets lost, that chance of fail is higher with the items level.

So to get a level 50 item you need to go through this process 20-24-30-34-40-44-50, with a chance to fail, also there are 2 random stats being generated each time for the item which can be from +1 to +9 (attribute bonus, the usual stats STR, DEX...etc). Btw we are talking about set items, each armor set consist of 7 items (7 items level 20, 7 items level 24), and ofc using 3, 5, 7 items from the set you will get various bonuses. And now the next random factor about crafting level 44+ items, there are more version of sets, for level 44 there are 4 sets for each cloth/leather/plate armor type, until then it was only 1 per level. So again you need to be lucky to get the right set part at level 44.

As you see there are many random factors when crafting armors (its different for weapons and accessory, for them you have random rarity too, didn't notice that with set items).

And to get the best endgame gear won't be easy like in themepark MMO's, and won't happen fast, it will be time consuming, which is good.

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

What's "challenging" about a random number generator?

Originally posted by GwapoJosh

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

What's "challenging" about a random number generator?

It's not that I/we don't like a challenge, but we don't like our games to feel like jobs. We like them to be games, they're for fun, immersion, etc. I don't find the prospect of losing all my stuff cuz of some jerk ganking me to be fun, I find it obnoxious. Challenges should come from the actual gameplay/content. Dungeons should be challenging, my walking across a field to farm materials for crafting shouldn't be frought with challenges and the risk of losing everything I've worked hard for in the past lol. There are plenty of ways you can make a game challenging without making it feel like you've been totally effed over cause some dude across the country is feeling pressed that day. I played WoW for years, I play GW2 currently but I've also played sandbox games and enjoyed them for what they were. I'm capable of liking multiple types of games, and AA is a hybrid between the two which is what I'm looking for, so I'm sure I will really enjoy it at least for a while. By the way, the whole "western players don't like this or that" thing is an outdated argument, I've heard many japanese and korean players complain about the same things with the games over there, I've had conversations with eastern players about the "difference in philosophy" and by and large they're not all THAT different anymore. Many of them don't like grindy & repetitive leveling, they just dealt with it because that's all that was ever available until recently. It's not so black/white anymore..

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

I spent a lot of time playing games with randomness involved in crafting / enchanting, such as Lineage II, Knight Online, etc.

I personally like it. It should be really hard to obtain the BIS gear like e.g. in L2 (at least in early chronicles). I loved that game.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Not every community, no. We're not even a "community" in the sense of being a percentage of people playing MMOs, we're such a small insignificant minority, it's not even funny.

Still, Archeage seem to have a lot of thins in its favor in terms of features. It certainly does not need people like the OP taking obvious stabs at other games, that behavior is usually reserved for games with issues.

 

Anyway, I'm as much to blame as the OP I guess, for swallowing his obvious troll bait.

I tend to agree with the OP that if a person is to wear armor to protect themselves from being slashed to death with swords, they wouldn't make it as skimpy and as sexy as possible.

I guess I'm a bigot who is filled with hate though?

Or just reasonable.  Either way.

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

I'm going to have to go with Gwapo...

I don't mind losing stuff. Not at all. But I would rather have it be because of some mistake on my part, or an actual test of skill maybe (?) as opposed to a dice rolling.

If a "challenge" is a test of one's ability then I want my ability tested. And again, if losing means "losing an item or xp or a level" then so be it.

But based on a dice roll? Not that I won't play Archeage but that part is not my cup of tea.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

I'm going to have to go with Gwapo...

I don't mind losing stuff. Not at all. But I would rather have it be because of some mistake on my part, or an actual test of skill maybe (?) as opposed to a dice rolling.

If a "challenge" is a test of one's ability then I want my ability tested. And again, if losing means "losing an item or xp or a level" then so be it.

But based on a dice roll? Not that I won't play Archeage but that part is not my cup of tea.

 

Wait a sec, you are against the dice (random factor) in RPGs, which is the basic building block of the genre! In an RPG everything is based on dice and chances, all the formulas is based on that starting from drop, damange, item improvement... and so on.

What ArcheAge is missing is...

me playing it

Originally posted by LlexX

 

Wait a sec, you are against the dice (random factor) in RPGs, which is the basic building block of the genre! In an RPG everything is based on dice and chances, all the formulas is based on that starting from drop, damange, item improvement... and so on.

I tend not to be the type of person who stays within a certain set of criteria or insists that if things are the way they are then they have to stay that way.

I can easily see the novelty and even interest in some things being randomly generated, Such as stats. I think it creates an interesting set of parameters for someone to be offered a choice of randomly generated stats and then being told that he/she can now capitalize on the stengths and minimize the weaknesses of the build.

Having said that, when I was DM'ing, I would never just roll a set of dice and tell my players they had to stick with it. They had the choice to continue rolling until they found something they could live with.

However, having said that, mmo's might have started with pen and paper games in mind but that doesn't mean they have to stay that way. For the record, I much more prefer the combat that Tera has than a tab target wait for some number generator to tell me if I missed or hit. Same with elderscrolls games. I much preferred Oblvion and skyrim combat  to morrowind and even the bit of daggerfall I played as I didn't like wacking away and waiting to see if it was a "hit".

So yeah, I am against, as a preference, certain things in mmo's that could very well be done in a way that relied more upon a player's knowledge and skill. Or at least, minimized dice rolls. Someone playing at "the top of their game" only to fail because of dice rolls isn't very engaging to me. It's fun in Monopoly. But not in the "worlds" we play in. At least  to a point.

To add, in my Dungeons and dragons days, I actually thew out most random encounters and most dice rolls prefering to rely upon whether the players made good decisions or not. so that's where I'm coming from.

Originally posted by Sovrath

To add, in my Dungeons and dragons days, I actually thew out most random encounters and most dice rolls prefering to rely upon whether the players made good decisions or not. so that's where I'm coming from.

Ahh, so you were more a Story GM, which is fine. I had better luck reffing White Wolf's "Vampire: The Masquerade" and other titles in the line. No Dice, just talk. It is incredible difficult to program in a Story based game without a Live GM and not have it be boring as hell. Look to SWTOR/GW2's story based structure, meh at best.

The very core of traditional RPG's though, like D&D and the Chainmail it grew out of, is all about die rolls, hit/miss, damage range, lockpicking, etc...  There was a reason I had a bad full of them.

Maybe someday, there will be an AI powerful enough to handle a fully interactive diceless system, that responds to players choices and especially choices that aren't on the choose one of the following three list...  Once that gets here we can have players actually changing a world with their choices and quick thinking, until then we have the RNG.

---

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Well, nothing wrong with player created content, i'd love to visit a brothel where femme fatalles dance on poles, or where you can rent a hooker for 30 minutes...  Adding to the games economy, i would love to be the pimp pushing those poor souls around and taking their money...

---

I'll give any Mmorpg.com member a free 1 hour trial with any of my ladies.

If your into furries, then that will cost extra.

http://youtu.be/Lv91hBpCrV0

Originally posted by LlexX

Wait a sec, you are against the dice (random factor) in RPGs, which is the basic building block of the genre! In an RPG everything is based on dice and chances, all the formulas is based on that starting from drop, damange, item improvement... and so on.

Tell that to hugh chunk of Aion players that complained over and over again about this very issue, i would say grind was nr1 most complained issue with rng right behind it.

There is a hugh difference from rpg/mmorpg rng and asian mmorpg rng. Rpg/mmo rng is there to make some random fun. Asian mmorpg rng is there to screw you over, multiple times even if your unlucky.

I liked Aion and playd it for 6 months, but the upgrade rng was bs. I playd lineage2 for a year so im not a stranger to those pure annoying rng's.

edit : OT rift had a superb heavy armor skirt/bikini in the starter area, rest of the armor for all races was ugly as hell but i liked that one alot, its how a warrior woman should be. Full clad armor is usaly so ugly. Aion is one of the few that manage to build great looking full armor.

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's not going to go over well in the west. It seems the east likes their gambling and chance games (something I was also told by a Lineage 2 Senior Game Master at a Gen Con) but whenver there is random anything it seems that players in the west don't like it.

They don't want "a chance to lose an item" based on a random number generator.

Yeah, most of the players on the west can't stand the gambling and losing of stuffs, they like to get stuff easily. However there are many of us, who still like these types of games more, because its more challenging.

And i don't care how many people will be play AA on the west, i don't expect to have millions of subscribers as WoW, GW2... Player numbers doesn't mean quality anymore!

I spent a lot of time playing games with randomness involved in crafting / enchanting, such as Lineage II, Knight Online, etc.

I personally like it. It should be really hard to obtain the BIS gear like e.g. in L2 (at least in early chronicles). I loved that game.

I love that sort of item enhancement system too.  It was one of the things that made Lineage so much fun.  It meant something to have +9 Blessed Katana or a +9 Saya Bow.  How many millions of adena were blown up trying to get that?  It's a much more interesting system than a static gear system (just 6,545 more tokens to grind to get the exact same gear set that everyone else is wearing).

Unfortunately it seems we're in the minority here in the west.  People always talk about old school and how cool it is until old school features pop up.  It's the same b.s. with innovation.  Everyone whines for it but then want their old systems back when a game actually implements it.

Hopefully the game will be B2P, but I doubt it.  That's not really the way Korean payment systems work.  I hope it is very successful in any event.  It looks awesome.

Originally posted by LlexX

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by legendsolo

Originally posted by xDayx

5)Full Loot (do items even have durability without the option to repair them?)

more casual stuff is being added to AA lately, durability is to hardcore.

So no durability because only crafters liked that idea? So craters get crapped on again. Durability is in so many games and not a huge deal. The amount of money you make from quests, loot, missions, selling stuff you are telling me they cant afford a few $$$ to repair an item? Seriously?

Going to be another loot based economy? Or did i misread that?

 

First i will tell you the experiments with the repair system, durability was always present part of the items:

1. until CBT4, to repair an item you had to go to a blacksmith and pay him gold to do it.

2. end of CBT4, they added a new system to experiment with, in this system to repair an item you had to sacrifice another item (using one item to repair another item), some way of item sink, but eventually they went back to:

3. repair items with gold, and the blacksmith. 

Questions:  

Is the blacksmith that repairs items a NPC?

Is there a chance of failed repair that instead destroys the item?

Do the items that successfully repair revert back to 100% of their original durability, or does it suffer a max durability decay with each repair?

Originally posted by xDayx

For me personally(this conotates that its my opinion)...

1)Non-tab targeting

2)Publisher

3)The gathering nodes look more like themepark nodes, than sandbox resources. The mining resources specifically. Im not sure if you can mine any rock you see though or just the shiny ones. Again, I may be wrong about this.

4)First-person only

5)Full Loot (do items even have durability without the option to repair them?)

6) Fully skill based- (wheres swimming/climbing/taste identification) skill?

I dont know, its tough for me.  I happen to like tab-target - but if we remove it, we replace it with what?  action combat?  It just doesnt fit for a slow burn RPG which I believe ArcheAge is.  I'm not saying all games should be tab target, but let us lovers of the mechanic have one game :-)

From everything that I have seen and read (and I have done a healthy amount of both) it doesn't come across as a sandbox. Did Jake or XL say this in an interview somewhere?  It looks to me like a mix between themepark questing and open ended systems - but I cant tell you how open ended they are until I play it (for a while).  Cant see how anyone could know by playing 20 levels. 

First person only?  Why limit the player base?  Makes more sense to allow both options.  I prefer my MMO in third person actually.

Would be nice to have skill based progression along side leveling.  Brings me back to EQ.

I already explained in my article the terms sandbox and themepark to describe a game is misleading. Don't get hung up on labels it only gives you fasle expectations of a game and you only have yourself to blame if your expectations don't meet the reality of the game.

It's so premature that people call for features or demand that the game have them or they'll avoid it when they haven't even played the game. Not all games are created to cater to certain features. Get rid of that ignorance.

This game is made by one of the Guys who shaped the Genre with his very own ideas.
It's a Jakebox based and improved on his old ideas in L1 and L2.

This game is not for Hardcore FFA Sandbox people and it's not for your gear treadmill Themepark audience.

Having said that, i don't understand how item decay "durability" helps "sandbox" when it's just a dumb moneysink via npc. I personally find it pointless and just annoying.
A full craft only & repair economy for gear will not happen in Archeage either, see above.

Originally posted by skydiver12

This game is made by one of the Guys who shaped the Genre with his very own ideas.
It's a Jakebox based and improved on his old ideas in L1 and L2.

This game is not for Hardcore FFA Sandbox people and it's not for your gear treadmill Themepark audience.

Having said that, i don't understand how item decay "durability" helps "sandbox" when it's just a dumb moneysink via npc. I personally find it pointless and just annoying.
A full craft only & repair economy for gear will not happen in Archeage either, see above.

true, when it's the typical implementation of item decay : get back to npc and pay a few gold for a full repaired item -  more a  meaningless money sink than an actual component of the economy, which it should have been.

but when done right, it strengthens the stickability and community of a given game - a game were explorers and crafters have both a meaningfull place, interacting with eachother.

in SWG crafters were server famous, because it wasn't just a one time purchase.  You had to make friends, and keep the lines open, because your Power Hammer was gonna wear out, and you needed to know who the crafter with the best Crafting Stations were to get back in the game.

Without item decay why would you care who made your armour? Ones achieved the highest tier?