Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Sovrath

Actually there are rules in a fantasy game, world, book, etc.

Otherwise it follows the "everything but the kitchen sink logic".

Throwing stuff in "just because it's cool" is bad writing.

Or bad creation.

Now, putting stuff in and finding a way to mesh everything together because of an internal logic, a sense of design, is, well, better design.

This doesn't mean one can't break this "rule" (and I put it in quotes  because it isn't so much a rule as an adoption of certain design conventioins) But it has to be done in a way that works. And that is dependent on the creators.

So for instance, one can take a pop song and suddenly have a head banging heavy metal solo and it will feel tacked on and incongrous to the genre.

but (and whether you like it or not) there are hip hop songs that draw upon bits of other types of genres, sample them and weave them into the work in a way that has its own sense.

But as someone else said, it's sandbox, it's open world, I'm there.

Yes, there are rules.  I would think you would have been smart enough to understand where I was coming from.  You can have tanks in a fantasy game, IF YOU SAY YOU CAN"T that's your issue.

here you go.

And to clarify, I wasn't thrilled with the limits of the imagination line because it can also be taken by some as "if you can imagine it then it can be thrown in".

It doesnt' necessarily speak to the idea of examining conventions and seeing where they can be bent and folded to create an internal logic that works. Just a bit broad.

Originally posted by spaceport

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

Gameplay  >  Lore/Theme

Not having great features like siege cannons, gliders with weapons for air PVP, or underwater helmets for treasure hunting just because it doesn't fit the theme would be a waste.

 

 

 

 

No, but having a magic helm that allowed extended breathing underwater would fit better (in my estimation)

 

...and I dont' see how burmuda shorts helps anyone gameplay.

But we aren't only talking about bermuda shorts here.

I mean would you rather have gliders with weapons for air PVP or not? just because it's weird and doesn't fit the theme?

it's still awesome, it's gameplay, more features.

It does look weird, but having tons of different things to do is more important than some arbitrary concept of what is acceptable and what is not in a fantasy setting

Well, at least for me, seriously, are we really complaining about all this great features? would you rather have a generic fantasy MMO with nothing to do but quests and raids?

 

What im trying to say it's that an unconsistent theme is a small price to pay for being the most feature and gameplay rich MMO since UO.

There is NO way to fit gliders, siege tools, boats, underwater gameplay, farming tools, eastern themed mounts, etc all in 1 fantasy theme.

This is all in my opinion BUT: 

Gliders siege tools, boats all fit. 

 

The weapons on a glider? they would fit if they were old musket style with the flaired end.... but mounted on the glider.

 

Like I said about the underwater gameplay, I have no problem with that, but make it a spell you get. Instead of a prop from 20,000 leagues under the sea.

 

Farming, instead of magic steam powered tractors, have a plow that is pulled by your mount, like a horse? (which is already in game)

 

and as far as the eastern themed mounts... ehhh i'm 50-50 on this one. while I think the giant rabbit is retarded looking, I also did play FFXI for alot of years.. so I think I could get past it.

 

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There are a few examples of things that they could change in game to give it a better theme (in my opinion)

Im not in the least bit excited about AA but I will defend the lack of theme is for a better word a sandbox element that is sorely lacking intodays AAA MMO genre.  Having the player be in command of what to do and when to do it is the best way to make a game and harkens back to the gilded age of MMO's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_alexandria

The Greeks also had a cattle driven rail system circa 250 BC.  Imagine if they had replaced the cattle with steam engines. The world would be a much different place.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by waynejr2

 

Rules, in a fantasy game?  The limits are the limits of the imagination.  I can imagine this, why can't you?

Actually there are rules in a fantasy game, world, book, etc.

Otherwise it follows the "everything but the kitchen sink logic".

Throwing stuff in "just because it's cool" is bad writing.

Or bad creation.

Yes, there are rules.  I would think you would have been smart enough to understand where I was coming from.  You can have tanks in a fantasy game, IF YOU SAY YOU CAN"T that's your issue.

 

Again, and I keep saying thi, but thats only because folks seem to not get it...

Yes, there no limits to fantasy, by defintion, but even fantasy has to abide by it's own internal logic of the particular story you are trying to tell. Even fantasy has to create it's own 'reality'. Otherwise it is just a heap of nonsensical ideas thrown in a heap, which is just bad story telling by any standard.

Yes, you can have tank, and whatever else, in a fantasy game, but throwing Shermans randomly and without explanation into, say, a story set in Middle Earth would be... well, I hope you get what it would be.

Answer my earlier example please? If you was watching Game of Thrones and a guy rode a space hopper through a scene with a bucket on his head dressed in bermudas would this jar you at all? Would it shatter your willing suspension of disbelief with regards to that particular story? Would it make you say 'WTF??'.

I will ask again, because I haven't read it, does the fiction of Archeage feature a guy on a donkey in bemudas with a bucket on his head going to a nightclub? Does it establish and explain the seemingly conflicting aspects of the gameworld? In other words, does what we are being shown follow the internal logic set up by the established lore? Or is it random 'well, thats funny and cool, throw it in, it's just a game'?

I ask this because without knowing what AA sets as it's lore and how it rationalises it it's impossible to have this conversation about that game's world specifically, which is why I have been trying to keep my point general.

Originally posted by negilum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_alexandria

The Greeks also had a cattle driven rail system circa 250 BC.  Imagine if they had replaced the cattle with steam engines. The world would be a much different place.

 

You guys debating what techology is posible in any given age are missing the point of the OP.

This isn't about that at all.

I will be able to forgive a lot of the aesthetics and may even wear Bermudas and have a bucket for a hat if the damn game is good.

Originally posted by RefMinor
I will be able to forgive a lot of the aesthetics and may even wear Bermudas and have a bucket for a hat if the damn game is good.

 

I feel the same way, but I get why others don't.

For many a game world and an avatar they can emotionally buy in to is extrenely important, hence why so much value is put on character customisation and the like.

Maybe it comes down to whether the player is jut looking for a 'game' or a 'world'... I'm not sure. Each is valid, but they are uually very different perspectives as to what is 'acceptable' when it comes to stuff like described above.

Ref, do you usually care about and read lore, in (quest texts etc) or out of the game?

Originally posted by spaceport

There is NO way to fit gliders, siege tools, boats, underwater gameplay, farming tools, eastern themed mounts, etc all in 1 fantasy theme.

 

Don't be silly, ofc there is.

In fact, from a story telling perspective, something like the original Avatar: The Last Airbender cartoon pretty much did all that, and did it in a way that stayed true and consistent to it's internal logic.

 

I see theme in AA. 

 

Ofc it is not such sharp theme like was (until some point when sillysness started to pur there as well) in i.e Ultima Online , but there is one.

 

Anyway I am perfrectly fine with AA 'theme' it is fun , just hope they won't have some silly ideas after release.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by RefMinor
I will be able to forgive a lot of the aesthetics and may even wear Bermudas and have a bucket for a hat if the damn game is good.

 

I feel the same way, but I get why others don't.

For many a game world and an avatar they can emotionally buy in to is extrenely important, hence why so much value is put on character customisation and the like.

Maybe it comes down to whether the player is jut looking for a 'game' or a 'world'... I'm not sure. Each is valid, but they are uually very different perspectives as to what is 'acceptable' when it comes to stuff like described above.

Ref, do you usually care about and read lore, in (quest texts etc) or out of the game?

 

To be honest, it's more the fact we have been so starved of a decent sandbox that I am willing to overlook the aesthetic irritants, if others are not going to be able to do it, then they should shout out in the hope that changes are made in some of the more minor aspects( I would think siege engines and gliders etc are fixed in place) but I understand their concerns and hope a more aesthetically coherent AAA sandbox comes along a few years later for them to enjoy.

Many people in this thread underestimate the value of consistency.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

Gameplay  >  Lore/Theme

Not having great features like siege cannons, gliders with weapons for air PVP, or underwater helmets for treasure hunting just because it doesn't fit the theme would be a waste.

 

 

 

 

No, but having a magic helm that allowed extended breathing underwater would fit better (in my estimation)

 

...and I dont' see how burmuda shorts helps anyone gameplay.

But we aren't only talking about bermuda shorts here.

I mean would you rather have gliders with weapons for air PVP or not? just because it's weird and doesn't fit the theme?

it's still awesome, it's gameplay, more features.

It does look weird, but having tons of different things to do is more important than some arbitrary concept of what is acceptable and what is not in a fantasy setting

Well, at least for me, seriously, are we really complaining about all this great features? would you rather have a generic fantasy MMO with nothing to do but quests and raids?

 

What im trying to say it's that an unconsistent theme is a small price to pay for being the most feature and gameplay rich MMO since UO.

There is NO way to fit gliders, siege tools, boats, underwater gameplay, farming tools, eastern themed mounts, etc all in 1 fantasy theme.

This is all in my opinion BUT: 

Gliders siege tools, boats all fit. 

 

The weapons on a glider? they would fit if they were old musket style with the flaired end.... but mounted on the glider.

 

Like I said about the underwater gameplay, I have no problem with that, but make it a spell you get. Instead of a prop from 20,000 leagues under the sea.

 

Farming, instead of magic steam powered tractors, have a plow that is pulled by your mount, like a horse? (which is already in game)

 

and as far as the eastern themed mounts... ehhh i'm 50-50 on this one. while I think the giant rabbit is retarded looking, I also did play FFXI for alot of years.. so I think I could get past it.

 

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There are a few examples of things that they could change in game to give it a better theme (in my opinion)

You do know I take it that the book you are talking about was written in the 1870's? At a time when there were no such things? Crazy inventors in the game might create stuff that seem out of place without actually being out of place. In addition some inventions (like described earlier in another post) run on limited resources, so that might be why the technology is around, but it isn't used very much. To me it kind of seems like what you find in dystopic worlds, where there might be an abundance of tech, but it is only used by those who can pay for them (in this case very few probably). 

All in all I think it's important to either get to know the theme by playing the game or by talking to a dev, because you are basically getting the theme from visual input only (unless you know Korean, which is entirely possible). Unless you know that there is no real reason given for these items in-game you shouldn't automatically assume that they break with lore. I don't think it's entirely impossible for these items to be there.

Being able to make ships, castles and soon aircraft as a guild! Sorry but that trump theme for me. I'm more concerned with how much cool stuff you can do in a game, than how good a game is at telling its story at me.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Being able to make ships, castles and soon aircraft as a guild! Sorry but that trump theme for me. I'm more concerned with how much cool stuff you can do in a game, than how good a game is at telling its story at me.

This is pretty much my sentiments. I'm not too concerned if certain pieces of gear or equipement don't fit perfectly in the lore if I have the freedom to do things. At this point with all the insane features I'm seeing the only thing I'm worried about is the combat. It's one thing to watch a video of someone playing combat and you actually getting in and playing the combat yourself.

I do see the weirdness of the diving helmet vs a spell to help you dive under water. The issue probably is that all classes don't have the access to the spells and actually I would assume they don't. So if it is necessary to have a diving helmet I will go ahead and have a diving helmet.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Being able to make ships, castles and soon aircraft as a guild! Sorry but that trump theme for me. I'm more concerned with how much cool stuff you can do in a game, than how good a game is at telling its story at me.

And I agree with you, (hence the reason I'm still going to buy the game)

 

Another thing that bothered me, and I saw a vid about this back in CBT2? I think.. But people could upload there own image to put on a sale on there boat. (it was either the sale or the flag)

 

Which bothers me... because I just know I am going to be running around my fantasy world, and there goes pamila anderson floating by.. 

 

So it is what it is, I just wanted to know if I was the only one that noticed these things.

Originally posted by Xebioz

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

opinion)

You do know I take it that the book you are talking about was written in the 1870's? At a time when there were no such things? Crazy inventors in the game might create stuff that seem out of place without actually being out of place. In addition some inventions (like described earlier in another post) run on limited resources, so that might be why the technology is around, but it isn't used very much. To me it kind of seems like what you find in dystopic worlds, where there might be an abundance of tech, but it is only used by those who can pay for them (in this case very few probably). 

All in all I think it's important to either get to know the theme by playing the game or by talking to a dev, because you are basically getting the theme from visual input only (unless you know Korean, which is entirely possible). Unless you know that there is no real reason given for these items in-game you shouldn't automatically assume that they break with lore. I don't think it's entirely impossible for these items to be there.

 

 

UHmm.. what book?

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Xebioz

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by spaceport

opinion)

 

 

UHmm.. what book?

Twenty thousand leagues under the sea. 

 

Oh I gotcha. and point taken. 1950's, 1870's.... meh :P

 

But I think the majority of people got what I was really trying to say.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

The genre is fantasy  and not historical and it isn't bound to any IP that i know of even to no eastern one.  In fantasy it is possible to combine swords with underwater helmets. Whats count is that the style is good to look at. For me personally even that doesnt count at all because in MMORPG's it is gameplay over looks anytime. 

The important part is to be able to dive underwater and do the underwanting planting, treasure hunting and i dont care if the helmet look like from the 50's or i eat a pill that make grow gills or some mage put a underwater breath spell on me. The option to just be able to do that is what counts and satisfy my fantasy.

 

While I agree that this is fatasy game, generaly there are still rules as to which themes go togeather.

 

Not many people would accept a world of warcraft magic/sword early stoneage theme...but with spaceships. So I understand "there is no timeline" so they can do whatever....it just seems like alot of it conflicts.

I'm probably not wording this the best way either... I dunno I look at the game and I don't see a smooth world, the terrain looks great, the graphics are sharp, the sunsets and water effects are amazing... but when you start looking at the "man made" things in the game...it just looks so, busy. like there is crap everywhere and none of it really belongs.

 

But maybe I'm the only one that feels this way..

Well most sword and sorcery games/books or anything don't have guns either. We see a lot of that now days.