For those that don't read the quest (enjoy the story line), why play an RPG?  Wouldn't you much more enjoy an FPS?

Originally posted by Xasapis

I don't really agree with that. It is true that every hobby is a time sink for whoever is looking it from outside and is not really enjoy or understand it (how many people have they told you that gaming is a waste of time?). Thing is, if you enjoy what you're doing, then it's not really a grind, even if it is repetitive by nature. Even sex is repetitive by nature but I didn't see anyone complain because you go in and out all the time.

I agree on one thing. mmorpgs need gear to matter in a degree. If gear are totally irrelevant, then we're not really playing an mmorpg but a moba or something else. gear + skill + environment is what makes mmorpg interesting and different than other more streamlined games.

Some people view time sink = grind, but my point is mmorpgs is built to eat up time. If you think its a grind or not depends on the game and person. But if you don't want to spend a lot of time on a game than mmorpgs really isn't game for you. But ya mmorpgs makes money by eating yoru time, single player game make money by making you buy it.

Also when i first looked at this post like err... less than 6hrs ago it was 1 page than i finish my CR runs and now its like 7 pages lol. Btw got my friend 2h 38 gold sword to +7 woo00 =D now to sleep lol

Originally posted by mastersomrat

For those that don't read the quest (enjoy the story line), why play an RPG?  Wouldn't you much more enjoy an FPS?

Because its call mmorpg, which means there is more to it than just questing. Yes if your playing a single player rpgs that makes sense. However mmorpg is more heavy on the mmo part. Whole point of mmorpgs is you get to make your mark in the game world, the quest is there to help you lvl and fill in on some back story which you can ignore if you choice. I know lot of early mmorpgs barely had any quests all grind based. Only because of WoW suddenly quest became nessary in all mmorpgs.

I seriously say if you want quests, mmorpg is not the game for you. Single player games have and always will have better quest than mmorpgs will. So why play mmorpgs if you only care about quest?

Originally posted by mastersomrat

For those that don't read the quest (enjoy the story line), why play an RPG?  Wouldn't you much more enjoy an FPS?

I think the major misconception and the real damage that wow and its clones has done to the genre, is that people now assume that backstory and lore equals questing, which is not true. Quests are certainly a tool, but hardly the only one to set the tone and give you hints of what is going on around you. Sometimes those quests can be a detriment to the whole experience, when you see something grand and want to be part of it, but you are sent left and right to do trivial errants.

Perhaps it's just a semantics problem. We're used to call "quests" pretty much every trivial goal any useless NPC has to offer, while the true quest lines are few even in the heavy "quest" driven mmorpgs.

OP, I completely agree with you. I do however find it funny, that all of a sudden, quests aren t important to most of the fanbois. Just come out and say it, the quests blow.

I've already pointed out that the quest system in Tera is one of the weakest points, due to it being a generic copy of WoW quest hubbing (or an exact copy of Aion or Rift quest system if you like), but also because the story told in general does not translate well from Korean. What makes sense in terms of lore there doesn't necessarily make sense here, most people are not multinationally exposed and some are even xenophobic (you only have to look to the reaction regarding Elins and Popori for that).

I've already said that quests are a weak point back in sneak peak, even before the close betas. The beauty of Tera and other eastern mmorpgs though is that they don't have NDAs to cover for their weaknesses. I'm just kind of tired of repeating myself ;)

(I haven't read the Tera novels yet btw, once I do it will give me a better idea of the Tera world. I did read all SW:TOR novels before playing the game and read all GW2 novels except for the two released yesterday)

Of the MMORPGs I played, I think I liked the questing in Fallen Earth the most. Sure, it had killquests too, but it also had interesting storylines, "track down the traitor" quests, quests where you had choose which way to go (such as in turning in proof for a crime, or destroying said proof to protect the person, or whatnot) and so on.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by k-damage

If people don't read quests, why do they want a level system to begin with ?

Out of curiocity, have you ever played an mmorpg without quests? You wouldn't be making that question if you did.

Hey, I wasn't implying that leveling cannot be achieved without questing, I was just wondering why people who "don't have the time/don't want to read quests" are ok with ramping up the available skills by leveling.

Quests are basically the story version of leveling. Not wanting quests is like not wanting story, then why play an RPG (mmo or not) in the first place if they don't want a story ?

I didn't go through every page of posts but I sure hope someone mentioned that when Open Beta launches, the starting area (experience) will be completely revamped, as far as I know.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by mastersomrat

For those that don't read the quest (enjoy the story line), why play an RPG?  Wouldn't you much more enjoy an FPS?

I think the major misconception and the real damage that wow and its clones has done to the genre, is that people now assume that backstory and lore equals questing, which is not true. Quests are certainly a tool, but hardly the only one to set the tone and give you hints of what is going on around you. Sometimes those quests can be a detriment to the whole experience, when you see something grand and want to be part of it, but you are sent left and right to do trivial errants.

I understand your point, but unless we're facing a billion dollar project, you can't really tell a full, complex lore only with realtime events. Having a part of written lore is essential. And even without searching to tell the lore but simple macro-storylines, nothing will escape from boredom after the first alt if it's all cinematic (swtor has been named in the thread, it's a perfect example), unless there isn't a single shared cinematic between classes. And in this case, we would fall again in the billion dollar project case (or in the 5 hours long class story).

I agree with the OP and it's the reason I won't be buying this game. I played to level 30 and it never held my attention. I'd like to take the combat system and put it into other games that have a bigger variety of classes... 4 warrior classes out of 8 is overkill, it should be 1 warrior class with the ability to spec into other areas and another 3 completely different classes instead.

Yay, I poked a bee-hive! I was hoping this would spark some discussion about quests, etc.

Here are some responses.

To those who suggest playing SW:ToR

I did play SW:ToR. The experience was a lot like AoC, actually. I enjoyed the game, and the story, for a bit. Then it fell into crap where I got 1500 unrelated quests asking me to do worthless crap, and the story quest literally asked me to do the same thing on the fourth planet in a row (go to this planet and heal a jedi, Great Job! Now go to this planet and heal a jedi!).

To those who say TERAs quests are just like all MMORPGs

No, they aren't. This is the worst I've ever seen out of a pile of bad, bad games. Actually, WoW's (and maybe GWs) quests were probably the most immersive, and that was 8 years ago. However, this comparison is my point exactly. WoW came up with a style of progression that revolutionized and really created a genre that's as large as it is now. Instead of asking wh this happened, every game developer who creates themepark games just assumed WoW's quest system is some sort of magic bullet that is the absolute pinnacle of achievement and can never be improved upon.

Progressionists were already in the genre. WoW did not attract them (though it does cater to them).

WoW brought players in because it's the first game that made a quick, effective impression and a reason why you should be doing what you're doing. It's the first game that could actually provide suspension of disbelief, which is absolutely vital unless a game is just about the mechanics.

There are ways to do things different through quests!

1. MAKE LESS QUESTS. This is the biggest no brainer, and yet no one has done it. Have the quests themselves be accessible, but have them, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, tell an interesting story or help to uncover lore of the gameworld. Have them take you somewhere far away, letting the player explore and discover how to get there. Have lots of "rest places" where people can logout and come back safe. The crazy thing: this is cheaper than the current status quo.
2. CREATE MYSTERY. WoW did this with a lot of quests. No one else, even SW:ToR, seems to have figured it out. Don't tell the story of what your character is going to do BEFORE THEY DO IT. Give the player a chance to figure things out.
3. MAKE MULTI-STEP QUESTS THAT PROGRESS BY MORE THAN JUST NPCS. So an NPC tells you to do something, you go and do it. Something unexpected happens and you have to continue to do the quest on your own. Quests need to be triggered by more than just NPCs for this to happen.
4. DO IT BETTER. Do not create kill 10 rats quests. Do not create fedex quests. Do not create talk to this guy quests. Now you have to be creative. Have fun using your brain, quest writers :)

To those who say quests have to be bad so that the game can take a long time.

First off, this is not true.

Second, go hump a cactus. Your attitude has literally stagnated the industry for 8 years, and game developers cater to you because you subscribe the longest.

This, if anything, is what's wrong with a subscription fee. It encourages developers to make their games unenjoyable, because we're in this weird limbo where the most important customers think that badgames are better than good games, so long as they take longer to play.

To those who say the combat in TERA is its saving grace

I was hoping this would be the case. I can forgive a lot if combat is actually fun, challenging, and enjoyable. However it's apparant that if this is ever even going to be the case, it will be many, many hours of killing 10 rats before I get there. It may be action combat, but it sure feels like turn-based combat when you can literally just stand there auto attacking and win versus everything with 95% of your health left.

Seriously, if the game has this awesome combat system, GET THE PLAYERS HOOKED ON IT FROM THE START!!!!!!!!!!!!! Usually I get frustrated when people whine about games catering to the lowest common denominator because these games rarely have any skill to begin with. Killing mobs in EQ that could win with RNG or roaming randomness, and being forced to get your corpse, and camping for 10 hours was not a challenge, it was a pain in the ass. There's a difference.

Tera, however, has completely invalidated all the work they put into making an original combat system by making it NOT MATTER!

Why?

Why would you do this to your game?

Originally posted by Xasapis

Well, mmorpgs does not necessarily equal questing. If you can communicate the lore and the background of your game to your players without questing, more power to you. I can think of numerous games without quests or very few of them.

• Ultima Online
• Everquest
• Anarchy Online (you could get random tasks but not the same as the questing of today)
• SWG
• Lineage 2

These were a few of the game I've played myself, there could be more out there. Noone can dispute that the above were mmorpgs, without the quests. Then EQ2 and WoW came and established questing as a norm, so newer people can't seem to be able to grasp an mmorpg without them. There are attempts to move away from that model, like the recent GW2, but I don't know how successful it'll be. There are people that still hate AoC due to a quest gap in 40-60 levels at launch.

 

In any case, when you buy an mmorpg, you buy a full package. You don't get just the combat system, or the quest system, or the crafting system. You get them all. Some of those things you like more and some less, which is different for everyone. If the sum of the good stuff does not outweight the sum of the bad stuff, then it is advisable to stay away from the game. However this sum is different for each one of us. Somebody's garbage is another man's treasure (as SW:TOR amply demonstrates by being garbage to me).

 QFE this person makes sense.

So you dislike every single quest MMO in the market, becuase they basically are the same? I mean its fine if you prefere MMORPGs just with grinding mobs, just a lot of people like quests to kind of 'disguise' it better.

some of the best MMO in the history of the MMO genre.  had very little questing. 

  EQ1, Daoc had very little questing, SwG, Ultima online. Lineage 2, Anarchy online, Asheron's call.

Questing only became a norm in MMO right after Wow and EQ2.

i don't need a quest to help me inmerse myself with the lore of the game,  the enviroment, the characters, the game world can do that for you without having to read a single quest ever.  .  in fact roleplaying was very common and popular in Eq1 old days.  all you needed to do,was to use your imagination.   it was up to the player to make their own stories.  and the way you acted in game, was the only way to define your character.

when i play a MMO i like to think of my character as a representation of me, in that virtual world.  when you interact with other people,  when you explore the world with others,  when you defeat a monster.  you are making your own quest, story.

i rather read a good book,  than playing MMO only  to read quests.  and it does not matter, if the quests tells you to go kill 4 retarded crippled brown rats. or go discover the Assasin's who killed the king's brother.   

Originally posted by Nadya3

some of the best MMO in the history of the MMO genre.  had very little questing. 

 

  EQ1, Daoc had very little questing, SwG, Ultima online. Lineage 2, Anarchy online, Asheron's call.

 

Questing only became a norm in MMO right after Wow and EQ2.

 

i don't need a quest to help me inmerse myself with the lore of the game,  the enviroment, the characters, the game world can do that for you without having to read a single quest ever.  .  in fact roleplaying was very common and popular in Eq1 old days.  all you needed to do,was to use your imagination. 

when i play a MMO i like to think of my character as a representation of me, in that virtual world.  when you interact with other people,  when you explore the world with others,  when you defeat a monster.  you are making your own quest, story.

Sure. Although they didn't have quests, these games were able to provide a real narrative to the players through interactions with other players, and the trials and tribulations of the game world. Because of this, when you have 2000 *$@! quests it actually detracts from the immersion instead of adding to it (which should be the purpose of quests).

I will say that some of those early RPGs had it easy though. The environment was able to spark your imagination because it was new and unique. Hard to get new and unique any more.

Originally posted by rexzshadow

Originally posted by Connmacart

Originally posted by rexzshadow

Because I and other people don't give a damn about quest. I never read them, I rather have good combat system and solid pvp and end game than a game with the best storyline but once you done with it in 2 weeks there i nothing left to fucking do.

Why do you bothe playing MMO's then. You clearly don't give a rats ass about the world your character inhabits. There are much better PvP games out there that don't make you go through hoops to get where clearly you want to be.

I agree that the questing was the biggest reason I got turned off. Either the journey needs to be interesting or it should let me skip it all together.

Ummm MMO = massive multi online meaning I play it for the people first. To me quest are mean to a end, hell I pure grind most game, quest were always just ext boost to me. I see the game world as what the players make it to be.

go play a sandbox game

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Nadya3

some of the best MMO in the history of the MMO genre.  had very little questing. 

 

  EQ1, Daoc had very little questing, SwG, Ultima online. Lineage 2, Anarchy online, Asheron's call.

 

Questing only became a norm in MMO right after Wow and EQ2.

 

i don't need a quest to help me inmerse myself with the lore of the game,  the enviroment, the characters, the game world can do that for you without having to read a single quest ever.  .  in fact roleplaying was very common and popular in Eq1 old days.  all you needed to do,was to use your imagination. 

when i play a MMO i like to think of my character as a representation of me, in that virtual world.  when you interact with other people,  when you explore the world with others,  when you defeat a monster.  you are making your own quest, story.

Sure. Although they didn't have quests, these games were able to provide a real narrative to the players through interactions with other players, and the trials and tribulations of the game world. Because of this, when you have 2000 *$@! quests it actually detracts from the immersion instead of adding to it (which should be the purpose of quests).

I will say that some of those early RPGs had it easy though. The environment was able to spark your imagination because it was new and unique. Hard to get new and unique any more.

bingo,  now you have nailed it.   that is exactly what i mean.

when things are all given to you, all too easy, we become lazy.   we no longer view a MMO as a virtual world, where your imagination runs wild and merges with the game enviroment .    the MMO nowadays turns into a simple shooter, shortly after the first month. 

  we no longer need to do anything.  because the devs make everything too convinient, too available and easy.    why using your imagination in creating your own stories?  why building a connection with your character?  we got plenty of quests to replace any actual creative thinking,  to remove imagination.  

this is why questing is not an issue for me in Tera.   it has that open world feeling, that is so rare to find in MMO nowadays.  the characters look , like they actually belong and are part of that world.

Originally posted by Nadya3

bingo,  now you have nailed it.   that is exactly what i mean.

when things are all given to you, all too easy, we become lazy.   we no longer view a MMO as a virtual world, where your imagination runs wild and merges with the game enviroment .    the MMO nowadays turns into a simple shooter, shortly after the first month. 

  we no longer need to do anything.  because the devs make everything too convinient, too available and easy.    why using your imagination in creating your own stories?  why building a connection with your character?  we got plenty of quests to replace any actual creative thinking,  to remove imagination.  

this is why questing is not an issue for me in Tera.   it has that open world feeling, that is so rare to find in MMO nowadays.  the characters look , like they actually belong and are part of that world.

I agree with some of your points, but completely disagree with your reasoning. A good questing system will enhance the world and stimulate imagination far more then no questing system. You say people don't build a connection with their character. Let me counter that with why should I. I play for fun me making a connection has nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with laziness as you suggest. Just a different playstyle. You exhibit elitist behaviour with the way you portrait your opinion.

You not having a problem with the questing system does not equal it not being horrid.

It does looks to be below average in the questing department. It has a very WoW-like appraoch except without the lore. However, this game doesn't really seem like it was focused on questing content. It seems like it'll be a fun game for people that prefer a more action oriented approach to MMOs. 

You didin't need an amazing story or questing system in Planetside to have a hell of a lot of fun.

Originally posted by Connmacart

Originally posted by Nadya3

bingo,  now you have nailed it.   that is exactly what i mean.

when things are all given to you, all too easy, we become lazy.   we no longer view a MMO as a virtual world, where your imagination runs wild and merges with the game enviroment .    the MMO nowadays turns into a simple shooter, shortly after the first month. 

  we no longer need to do anything.  because the devs make everything too convinient, too available and easy.    why using your imagination in creating your own stories?  why building a connection with your character?  we got plenty of quests to replace any actual creative thinking,  to remove imagination.  

this is why questing is not an issue for me in Tera.   it has that open world feeling, that is so rare to find in MMO nowadays.  the characters look , like they actually belong and are part of that world.

I agree with some of your points, but completely disagree with your reasoning. A good questing system will enhance the world and stimulate imagination far more then no questing system. You say people don't build a connection with their character. Let me counter that with why should I. I play for fun me making a connection has nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with laziness as you suggest. Just a different playstyle. You exhibit elitist behaviour with the way you portrait your opinion.

You not having a problem with the questing system does not equal it not being horrid.

that has nothing to do with elitism.  i don't think the questing in Tera is horrible.  simply because it is identical to the questing you find in wow.   would i have prefered a Swtor questing system?  hell yeah. 

  as someone wrote above,  questing is just a part of a whole package.  a MMO is not only about, questing,  or grinding mobs,  or combat.   but many other things, combined together.

to me, questing is in the bottom of my priorities when i play a MMO. because i don't need to read some text or listening to 30 minutes of VO scenes to learn about the Lore.  you can learn about the game Lore, without having to play the game even,  then you have all the freedom to build your own imaginary story for your character.

i don't need to play games, to read good stories.  i have a room full of wonderful books in my house for that!p