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Guild Wars 2 Forum » General Discussion » Should GW2 have kept more traditional mmo mechanics?

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125 posts found
  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/15/13 2:04:48 PM#41
Originally posted by Sovrath
Nah, it's good that they tried something different and that there are people who like what they tried.

Yea I agree 100%

 

To further elaborate I might would have never tried GW2 if it was like a traditional MMO. They don't appeal to [me]

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 2:17:11 PM#42

So far it has been a resounding 'no'.  Which is good because I am all for change unless the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' adage works.  

My issue was simply, and I might have been misunderstood, I would prefer the game if it had defined roles and more immersion created by interaction with npc's rather than swimming over them.  

Now, I understand it is not my game, I have quit.  I just wish that a game I was really looking forward to and liked was not ruined for me by many aspects of (imo) experimental gameplay.  

Obviously there is vitriol from the 'this is my game of choice' camp, but it is not unreasonable to ask questions of a game you were looking forward to but which under delivered. 

Basically I wanted GW1 part 2.  

  L0C0Man

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/09
Posts: 919

2/15/13 2:20:25 PM#43

I'd say no. There are enough MMOs with traditional mechanics, I want to see games trying new things, whether they end up succesful or not. If anyting I'd have liked GW2 to have some things back from GW1, like the need to use signets of capture to get elite skills.

What can men do against such reckless hate?

  Safo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/03
Posts: 47

2/15/13 2:21:40 PM#44
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by grimal

I wish they had kept more of the skills ideas from GW1.  I also think they should have stuck to the more traditional MMO leveling/ability progression.  I think it would have been nice for them to consolidate the PVP/PVE experience into one experience.  I'm not  a fan of the game separation.

But it's much easier to stay with tradition then it is to try something new, so I applaud them for that.

woohoo, this is me.  haha got monumental amount of shit for this thread.  I think GW1 did a lot right and GW2 undid a lot of that good work.  I miss, well I could list them, but almost everything I liked in GW1 is gone.  

I have alot of friend who are of the exact same mindset.  They loved the hell out of GW1 and all that it had, the skills, the minions, pvp.. everything and GW2 they feel was a step backwards in many areas.  I think the only thing they can agree on that was an upgrade was the graphics. :)

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

2/15/13 2:21:47 PM#45
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 2:26:45 PM#46
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

2/15/13 2:34:29 PM#47
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1594

2/15/13 2:35:28 PM#48
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by natpick

i was actualy  playing gw2 earlier and thought the same thing if this game kept the trinity  it would  been a great mmo

as it is been killed every 2 minutes just isnt fun,dont say use dodge it dont matter how much you dodge and roll frequent death is inevitable.

shame really what a beutiful world it is and intresting races/classes.

 ANet built in the "downed mechanic". They didn't do it just for fun. What I am getting at is that, in my eyes, you are ment to die frequently. I like you find this lame.

If you are in the downed state frequently, or dying every 2 minutes, you are seriously doing something wrong. My level 59 Guardian has died only a handful of times, my level 38 Dagger/Dagger Elementalist has died even less. Typically, any and all deaths were because I wasn't paying attention or tried to solo a champion, etc.

The active combat system in GW2 is what makes the game for me. I am able to keep myself alive by taking an active role in evading as much incoming damage as possible. The damage you can't evade, you can mitigate through active defenses (like using a block skill), or blinding your enemy right before their next attack so that it misses. The point is that death isn't exactly encouraged. You are penalized with a shorter downed state length if you go into the downed state in quick succession, you are penalized with death by repair costs and having to pay to go to the closest waypoint to rez (unless someone rezzes you).

To answer the OP:

I don't think quest hubs would've done anything for the game. I'm not a huge fan of the heart NPCs either, but remember that the Hearts were added after doing some cold playtesting with people in the office. They would walk by events, and when questioned why, they stated that they didn't have a quest for it. Hearts were a necessary evil.

Through different combinations of traits, skills, armor stats, and weapon selections, you can fulfill many of the traditional roles within the game. You can make your character more tanky, or a pure glass cannon. You can make yourself a pseudo healer/utility character. Ultimately though, you are mostly responsible for yourself, because of how active combat is. GW2 doesn't need static roles with static stats built in. That exists is so many other games, it's nice to have something different.

The game isn't without problems, but being a clone of something else isn't one of them. Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 2:39:33 PM#49
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

I didn't but expected some objectivity.  I see that you have tried to 'turn heads', but do not see the validity of it.  

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2784

There... are... four... lights!

2/15/13 2:45:17 PM#50
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

2/15/13 2:46:05 PM#51
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by natpick

i was actualy  playing gw2 earlier and thought the same thing if this game kept the trinity  it would  been a great mmo

as it is been killed every 2 minutes just isnt fun,dont say use dodge it dont matter how much you dodge and roll frequent death is inevitable.

shame really what a beutiful world it is and intresting races/classes.

 ANet built in the "downed mechanic". They didn't do it just for fun. What I am getting at is that, in my eyes, you are ment to die frequently. I like you find this lame.

If you are in the downed state frequently, or dying every 2 minutes, you are seriously doing something wrong. My level 59 Guardian has died only a handful of times, my level 38 Dagger/Dagger Elementalist has died even less. Typically, any and all deaths were because I wasn't paying attention or tried to solo a champion, etc.

The active combat system in GW2 is what makes the game for me. I am able to keep myself alive by taking an active role in evading as much incoming damage as possible. The damage you can't evade, you can mitigate through active defenses (like using a block skill), or blinding your enemy right before their next attack so that it misses. The point is that death isn't exactly encouraged. You are penalized with a shorter downed state length if you go into the downed state in quick succession, you are penalized with death by repair costs and having to pay to go to the closest waypoint to rez (unless someone rezzes you).

To answer the OP:

I don't think quest hubs would've done anything for the game. I'm not a huge fan of the heart NPCs either, but remember that the Hearts were added after doing some cold playtesting with people in the office. They would walk by events, and when questioned why, they stated that they didn't have a quest for it. Hearts were a necessary evil.

Through different combinations of traits, skills, armor stats, and weapon selections, you can fulfill many of the traditional roles within the game. You can make your character more tanky, or a pure glass cannon. You can make yourself a pseudo healer/utility character. Ultimately though, you are mostly responsible for yourself, because of how active combat is. GW2 doesn't need static roles with static stats built in. That exists is so many other games, it's nice to have something different.

The game isn't without problems, but being a clone of something else isn't one of them. Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

I agree here - my lvl 80 ranger did not die the first time until after I hit lvl 80.

I think people want the same but say they want different. Actions speak louder than words.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 2:48:48 PM#52
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

But, everything is defined anyway.  In GW2 everything is defined, do you think it is not?  Genuinely?  We are playing games... games... things you mess about on in your spare time that are programmed to react in certain ways to your inputs... games.  Am I missing something? 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/15/13 2:49:28 PM#53
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 2:53:28 PM#54
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

Well this I agree with.  I want to see development, I want to see new ways of playing.  When I consider, for example, what was that game where you created holes in walls and turned onto the ceiling etc?  Nevermind, GW2 for me was a small devolution, nothing spectacular, just a small change.  

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/15/13 2:56:37 PM#55
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

Well this I agree with.  I want to see development, I want to see new ways of playing.  When I consider, for example, what was that game where you created holes in walls and turned onto the ceiling etc?  Nevermind, GW2 for me was a small devolution, nothing spectacular, just a small change.  

its all perspective on what you look for in a game.. for example my buddy doesn't care about context in quests about npcs moving around or anything like that. So when he played gw2 he didn't see the big deal in that aspect. For me static feeling worlds is one of the biggest and first things I catch onto in a MMO. This one reason brings GW2 a HUGE step above and beyond most other MMOs for me.. for you it could just be a meh thing and nothing you notice or care about.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

2/15/13 3:00:03 PM#56
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

I didn't but expected some objectivity.  I see that you have tried to 'turn heads', but do not see the validity of it.  

I see it as a totally valid point something new everything else has turned WoW clone and has a trinity its good to see people trying a new system. Whats an opinion without reasoning?

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1594

2/15/13 3:08:08 PM#57
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kaneth

Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

But, everything is defined anyway.  In GW2 everything is defined, do you think it is not?  Genuinely?  We are playing games... games... things you mess about on in your spare time that are programmed to react in certain ways to your inputs... games.  Am I missing something? 

Definition as in, clearly defined roles, clearly defined objectives, defined ways of playing said game. GW2 has some defined gameplay, but it's not nearly as structured as other mmos. WoW is the usual example, so I will use that as well.

In GW2, if I choose to, I can level from 1-80 all in Queensdale (Human 1-15 zone). I miss out on the rest of the world, and higher level crafting mats, etc. But I can choose to level that way for the entire game, which makes how you level less defined.

In WoW, you have to move out of a zone once you out level it, because you stop earning meaningful xps. I cannot stay in the Barrens and expect to get to level 90. Heck, Blizzard went as far as to penalize xp gains for certain level ranges if you tried to stay in certain areas (i.e. keeping in Cataclysm areas to try to level past 85).

In GW2, my Guardian can be more tanky, be more of a dpser, can be a support role, or I can build a balanced character and perform all actions to a lesser degree.

In WoW, you are a Tank, DPS or Healer. Not even all classes have all roles. You can't even play as a reliable alternative role in a spec not designed for that role. It is clearly....and purposefully defined.

In GW2, once I hit level 80 my style of play doesn't really have to change. I can keep on doing the same things I have done the previous 79 levels. I can obtain the gear I want through farming karma, fractals, crafting, AH, etc.

In WoW, endgame CLEARLY starts at level 90. You cannot do ENDGAME raiding before that point. Heck, the first 89 levels of the game are all completed solo, unless you do dungeons or pvp, and at endgame the only PvE progression system is raiding, which is the opposite of anything that came into the game before. Ironically, the leveling portion and the endgame portion are like two entirely different games. You can't even craft a full set of endgame level gear.

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/15/13 3:09:01 PM#58
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

Sorry, but no thanks.

And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

I didn't but expected some objectivity.  I see that you have tried to 'turn heads', but do not see the validity of it.  

I see it as a totally valid point something new everything else has turned WoW clone and has a trinity its good to see people trying a new system. Whats an opinion without reasoning?

Well that was just an opinion without an agenda.  So fair play.  

  Vorch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 809

2/15/13 3:13:57 PM#59

You are dying entirely too much. I would recommend learning the basics a bit. Study the encounter, learn the encounter, master the encounter.

-----

Secondly, you are saying that the combat is both very simple and very complex, and that both problems would be fixed if it just used the trinity or at least defined roles. I would disagree. The system is simple enough to understand, but much more difficult to master.

For instance, you can make it through the majority of open world content from 1-60 simply by burning through your cooldowns on most classes. Eles and thieves may find that a bit harder to get away with, but it's doable.

However, dungeon content is designed as content that cannot be simply conquered by pressing random numbers. Knowing what Definance is, knowing what Stun Breakers are, knowing how to rid yourself of conditions, and knowing how to ressurect teammates SAFELY are extremely important. Understanding combo fields and the effects they create, knowing your finishers, and knowing the boss mechanics are also essential.

-----

This is basically why it is PAINFUL to try and run a dungeon with some groups that don't seem to understand the intricasies of combat. In my experience, these are also the same groups that skip content that is profitable (i.e. kholer and troll in Ascalonian Catacombs). It is also why it is AMAZING to play with a group that knows what they are doing.

-----

Keep in mind, there are people who think dungeon content is too EASY, atm. They want a hardmode. Also, bear in mind that dungeons have been toned down compared to what they were pre-launch so that people could understand them.

 

TL;DR: The combat is easy to learn and difficult to master...some people actually want instances with higher difficulties.

 

Here are a few wiki articles I think will help you A LOT

Combat: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

Stun (and stun break): http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

Unshakable: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

Defiant: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiant

Combos: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combos

 

"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

2/15/13 4:09:41 PM#60

I'm not sure about problem here, but sometime I miss my monk (hero=XD)

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

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