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Guild Wars 2 Forum » PvP » PVP. whats the point?

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92 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/05/12 8:27:48 AM#61
Op:
You have been conditioned by a thing called a skinner box. Get help. That way you can do things for the fun of it rather than as a gambling like loot addiction.
  wildtalent

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/07
Posts: 381

9/05/12 8:30:33 AM#62
Pride man!  WvW is about pride!  

  vort3x

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/06
Posts: 124

9/05/12 8:32:12 AM#63
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Wow! 6 pages of replies and only one person got the OP's point. Almost everyone in this thread ignored the OP's part of the question around the point that  THERE ARE BETTER GAMES OUT THERE IF ALL YOU WANT IS EQUALLIZED PVP.

But it doesn't address the fact that GW2 is a complete package. (Just looking at both sides of the coin)

Well if that was the point, the point is wrong :) Because noone can tell me with a straight face, that counter-strike is an alternative to GW2 sPvP. Counter-Strike is Counter-Strike, it's not even an alternative to Unreal or Quake. But FPS are another story.

Anyway I've been looking for years for an MMO with good structured sPvP, where people in arena play with arena gear that is the same for everyone. There is none. In my opinion the only alternative to GW2 sPvP would be GW1...

And don't get me wrong. I loved open PvPs in Lineage2 and all that... But in the end it all boils down to equipment and zergs. Or in other words - kids that have the time to play 16 hours per day owning everyone that can only aford to play 3 hours per day.

Not my idea of fair competition...

  eAzydaman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 220

9/05/12 8:32:24 AM#64
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Wow! 6 pages of replies and only one person got the OP's point. Almost everyone in this thread ignored the OP's part of the question around the point that  THERE ARE BETTER GAMES OUT THERE IF ALL YOU WANT IS EQUALLIZED PVP.

But it doesn't address the fact that GW2 is a complete package. (Just looking at both sides of the coin)

No there is not. This is more fun than old school Counterstrike and any MOBA combined.

  Tawn47

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 515

9/05/12 8:37:31 AM#65
Originally posted by Hrimnir

 

I'm not saying the game is crap because of it, im just saying i dont quite understand the point of doing that in an RPG when things like RTS's and FPS's etc exist.

Please point me in the direction of a medieval fantasy FPS with multiple classes and castle sieges in a large persistent battleground containing 100+ players...

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4649

9/05/12 8:42:24 AM#66
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Wow! 6 pages of replies and only one person got the OP's point. Almost everyone in this thread ignored the OP's part of the question around the point that  THERE ARE BETTER GAMES OUT THERE IF ALL YOU WANT IS EQUALLIZED PVP.

But it doesn't address the fact that GW2 is a complete package. (Just looking at both sides of the coin)

Well if that was the point, the point is wrong :) Because noone can tell me with a straight face, that counter-strike is an alternative to GW2 sPvP. Counter-Strike is Counter-Strike, it's not even an alternative to Unreal or Quake. But FPS are another story.

Anyway I've been looking for years for an MMO with good structured sPvP, where people in arena play with arena gear that is the same for everyone. There is none. In my opinion the only alternative to GW2 sPvP would be GW1...

And don't get me wrong. I loved open PvPs in Lineage2 and all that... But in the end it all boils down to equipment and zergs. Or in other words - kids that have the time to play 16 hours per day owning everyone that can only aford to play 3 hours per day.

Not my idea of fair competition...

That, to me, is a better answer for "Why GW2 PVP?" Than GW2=FUN!. I've seen that before (While I agree) I also recognize that in these games, repetition will kill fun faster than anything else we have seen.

 

But if in your opinion, GW2 is the best PVP on the market for any game out there, Then I can respect that.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  J_Hurry

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/16/05
Posts: 234

9/05/12 8:48:03 AM#67
The point is to make your enemies ragequit, duh.
  Impmon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/12
Posts: 28

9/05/12 8:59:29 AM#68

The only thing I didn't like about the large scale battles was they seemed futile.  I was partaking of a battle over this bridge that went back and forth.  Both sides were equally matched.  But then nothing was being accomplished.  We held the position however I didn't get anything out of it.  

At least in DAOC in a battle like that I'd earn realm points or something.  I'd get 20 exp every so often woopty doo.

If I damage a target in pvp I should get something for it.  Karma / Exp / Valor whatever.  

  User Deleted
9/05/12 9:09:34 AM#69
The same reason people PvP'ed in GW1 for 7 years with no gear grind.
  User Deleted
9/05/12 9:35:15 AM#70
Originally posted by Hrimnir

Ok, so, i know they wanted to avoid a gear grind with PVP and such in this game.  So i know the highest level set of stuff was supposed to be cosmetic only, but from what i gathered there would be some gear upgrades to work towards with PVP.

As far as i can tell there isnt.  You port to pre pvp area and you immediately get bumped to 80 and slapped into a full set of nice gear.  I run around looking at the vendors and all i can see are cat boxes or something like that, which i google and find out they basically drop some useless crap like glory boosters, etc.

Now. Correct me if im wrong about the gear, but if there is NO gear grind vs a "light" gear grind.  I honestly can't see the point of PVPing.  I certainly am not going to spend hundreds of hours doing it to get some fluff gear that just looks cool.

Why? Lets be honest. If i wanted pure, 0 gear grind PVP, i'm gonna go play counterstrike, or something like that.

I play MMO's for character development, if im going to invest 100 hours of play into some piece of gear i want it to do something for me.  It doesnt have to be a HUGE advantage, but it should grant some sort of advantage.  I know people are going to disagree with me, and frankly i don't care.  Its my opinion and what i look for in an mmo.

I'm not saying the game is crap because of it, im just saying i dont quite understand the point of doing that in an RPG when things like RTS's and FPS's etc exist.

 

What the heck are you doing in the GW2 forum? If you like the gear grind, go play WoW. Not trying to sound negative here. Go play WoW or one of the countless Korean grinders.

 

GW2 is a Themepark with little to no gear grind. That is all. People play it for a casual mass PvP fest with no other time investments for any gear grind.

 

Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
 

 

If you cant understand the "point" of pure PvP, then you're better suited for WoW.

  Darkmoth

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 175

9/05/12 10:44:42 AM#71
Originally posted by Tawn47
Originally posted by Hrimnir

 

I'm not saying the game is crap because of it, im just saying i dont quite understand the point of doing that in an RPG when things like RTS's and FPS's etc exist.

Please point me in the direction of a medieval fantasy FPS with multiple classes and castle sieges in a large persistent battleground containing 100+ players...

This post seems to answer the OP's question better than most others in the thread.

Counterstrike is the archetypical FPS, that is true. But note that it's not the only popular FPS. You have Battlefield, and Halo, and TF2, all of which vary to some degree from the Counterstrike formula. In none of these games is gear progression a significant factor.

Once upon a time I was really good at WoW PvP. I have awful reflexes, bad aim, and I tend to panic in a fight. However, I knew the other classes inside and out, so I was able to anticipate my opponents moves before they did them (Warrior is thinking about chargin me, better drop a trap...Shaman is getting low and going to heal soon, let me stun him and burst him when he panics). I could beat people at 2-1 odds because I played to their weaknesses and my strengths. Since I can't aim for crap, I would never have had the opportunity to excel in a FPS.

GW2 takes that sort of deep tactical gameplay to the nth level. It's not purely about aim and reflexes (ala Unreal Tournament), but rather the ability to know which of a dozen strategies are likely given your opponent, his class, his wepaon loadout, his team comp, etc. In TF2, a Heavy or a Pyro has a handful of good strategies. In GW2 a Guardian has many times that.

For the record, I suck abysmally at PvP in this game, but much of that is that I have no idea what the 3 people in front of me can do, or are likely to do. Getting to that level of tactical fluency is incredibly rewarding, and it's very much different from being able to headshot someone in mid-air.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/05/12 11:26:52 AM#72
Unless you play an old game like daoc, there is no equivelent to gw2s WvW, which is what themepark mmo pvp should be like, it is pvp a mmo can do better than a non mmo. Your ghettoed off tupperware pvp minigames from your wow clones, you can get that better from a MOBA or fps.

Well at least until ps2 & teso come out, gw2 is the best option in the themepark market for people that want pvp that takes advantage of a mmos strengths rather than trying to duct tape and hammer a fps match square peg in a mmo round hole.

* eve still the best overall pvp of course.
  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1091

 
OP  9/05/12 1:02:21 PM#73
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by Magnetia

*clipped* 

*snip*

*snip*
*snip*

Dude, im 28 years old, i got what you were saying;  What only maybe 4 people in this thread have understood is the point i am trying to make is not whether or not competitive PVP is fun, but should competitive PVP be placed in the confines of an MMORPG.

And as for your honing your skills argument.  It gernally takes about 2 million iteratons of doing something before you're a master at it.  So, while become a master of say performing an entire 20 minute pas de deux will take a lifetime to perfect, a game like this is going to take a few months AT MOST.  Now, if the whole stick was to try to learn every weapon combo for every class in the game and be top tier at all of it.  yes i could see someone doing that for years.  But, the reality is if you stick with the same character and same weapons, after a couple of weeks of playing you will have reached 99% of your skill capability.  Adding another 1000 hours isnt going to make you any significant amount better.

To respond to the people who are talking about grinds for gear in pvp.  My point is i would like to see a MINOR difference between sets.  Im talking like 5% at most.  So at least it feels like there is SOME point in it.  Otherwise i have no reason to play PVP in a game like GW2 for pure competitive "FUN" because playing something like CS:GO is far FAR more rewarding because its a far more pure skill based system than PVP in MMO's are.

 

You can always keep pushing the limits. When you think you have stopped improving in something, it's time for you to sit down and think what else you could improve, or WHY others can do it better than you.

Guild Wars 1 GvG was a perfect example. Everyone in top guilds had 1000s of hours invested in the game, and a couple of 1000 GvG battles. They could all run the same build, but the same guild kept wining the monthly tournaments. They just did something better...

Or take a FPS game for example, Quake. So much skill is needed to master that game, all the champs there have invested enormous amounts of time, yet there is always one that prevails... Even if it's just that 1 single % that keeps you from wining it, it makes the difference in the end. Besides, there is no reason sticking with 1 single class and specific set of weapons for years, no one will do that in GW2 in my opinion...

I'm not arguing that you can't push the limits, im arguing thats its frivilous and a waste of time.  Every person has a peak ability in regards to anything.  Thinking that if you work hard enough that eventually one day you are going to be able to run the 100m as fast as Usain Bolt is foolish and stupid.  Is there someone out there that could challenge him and probably beat him? Ya.  Of course, but thats out of 6 billion + people.

Just like someone who is 6'4" is not going to will himself into becoming a riding jockey.  People all have limits and the idea that you can be the best at anything you put your mind to is just garbage parents feed kids.  Now, can you "do" anything you work towards, yes.  But we're talking about pushing the limits of skill here.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

9/05/12 1:10:47 PM#74
Originally posted by Hrimnir

I'm not arguing that you can't push the limits, im arguing thats its frivilous and a waste of time.  Every person has a peak ability in regards to anything.  Thinking that if you work hard enough that eventually one day you are going to be able to run the 100m as fast as Usain Bolt is foolish and stupid.  Is there someone out there that could challenge him and probably beat him? Ya.  Of course, but thats out of 6 billion + people.

Just like someone who is 6'4" is not going to will himself into becoming a riding jockey.  People all have limits and the idea that you can be the best at anything you put your mind to is just garbage parents feed kids.  Now, can you "do" anything you work towards, yes.  But we're talking about pushing the limits of skill here.

gaming itself is a waiste of time if you aren't having fun imho.. for some the endless gear grind to improve your character just to hit the top then have them add another 5 ranks to grind out may be fun.. but I think it's gotten to a point many are just tired of it and want to enjoy a game they don't have to do this in to enjoy all the games content.. 

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1091

 
OP  9/05/12 1:12:55 PM#75
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Op:
You have been conditioned by a thing called a skinner box. Get help. That way you can do things for the fun of it rather than as a gambling like loot addiction.

I remember when someone found out about this and started posting it on game forums and all the regurgitation kiddies started passing it off as if they actually knew what they were talking about.  And FYI operant conditioning is just as big a part of instanced PVP and WvWvW as it is of a PVE progression grind treadmill as you all like to call it.

The difference here is i am aware of the carrot and the stick, i just know and accept that for me its fun and i know where my tolerance level for such things ends.  Its amazing to be that self aware instead of just accepting that something is fun and not trying to look for the bigger picture.

And im also getting sick of this "FUN" argument.  Its a load of crap.

Some kid in an eastern bloc country who doesn't have access to running water, electricity, is probably starving most of the time, etc, probably would think kicking a rock around a street is fun.  Does that mean its actually fun? No.  He just doesn't know any better.  To him its fun because he hasn't say experienced a rollercoaster or something like that.  Do you think after having gone to six flags or went snowboarding or something like that, that all of sudden he would go back to kicking a rock around a park and consider that fun?  No.  Wouldnt happen.

If you all really are doing it for the "FUN" of it, then who won the round wouldnt matter, which side took which sides castle would have no meaning.  Only that you took "A" castle. Things like glory ranks you shouldnt care one lick about.  What your armor looks like shouldnt matter, because remember its about the fun of pure skill based pvp.  Hell, why even have character models.  Just have blue and red orbs floating around in an area and you press the requested buttons for said abilities and may the most skilled person win.

Actually even on that point, if its about pure skill, then why are there more than 1 class?  Hrmm?  Are you going to sit and argue that things are perfectly balanced and that one class is not better than another?  So you don't like knowing you lost because of a gear advantage, but its ok knowing you lost because that class has an OP ability that hsnt been fixed yet and now its being abused?

Come on people.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Vese

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/05
Posts: 6

9/05/12 1:20:40 PM#76

I just need to ask the OP that why are you forcing your way of gameplay into this game, while there are dozen of games that offer the exact gear grind PvP you seem to want, why must every game follow the same basic formula?

People like different things, some like grinding gear and achievements and when they have them all they feel amazing for awhile but get anxious and feel unfullfilled if the developer doesn't add more carrot on a stick.

Some people just like to bash fellow players faces in, and they rather do it by them all being on the same level without having to first play hundreds of hours to even dream to be competitive. Even then, I expect that you have to have tens if not hundreds of hours of gameplay on your back in this game to be able to be on the very bleeding edge of pvp, and that to me and many more players is what is fun, and that is what this game is made for, why can't you respect that and leave it at that?

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1724

9/05/12 1:31:42 PM#77
So out of all the mmos that actually have a pvp gear grind, the OP just can't play one of those and be happy?  Weird....

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  gieger808

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/04
Posts: 153

9/05/12 1:53:29 PM#78
I see your point. No character progress gives you no other reason to log in. Once the novelty wears off, you're done. But that crowd are the ones who are in love with the pvp. It's plug and play pvp. They'll stay til something else comes out. They aren't looking for a mmorpg home, just quick fun.
  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

9/05/12 8:00:47 PM#79
Originally posted by Hrimnir

I'm not arguing that you can't push the limits, im arguing thats its frivilous and a waste of time. 

Dude.

*Gaming* is frivilous and a waste of time, unless you get into a professional eSports team with paid sponsorships or something.  Most of us won't.

Notwithstanding the potential psychological benefits of engaging in frivioloty and time-wasting endeavors in a balanced fashion, that is.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

9/05/12 8:15:02 PM#80
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Op:
You have been conditioned by a thing called a skinner box. Get help. That way you can do things for the fun of it rather than as a gambling like loot addiction.

I remember when someone found out about this and started posting it on game forums and all the regurgitation kiddies started passing it off as if they actually knew what they were talking about.  And FYI operant conditioning is just as big a part of instanced PVP and WvWvW as it is of a PVE progression grind treadmill as you all like to call it.

The difference here is i am aware of the carrot and the stick, i just know and accept that for me its fun and i know where my tolerance level for such things ends.  Its amazing to be that self aware instead of just accepting that something is fun and not trying to look for the bigger picture.

What's truly amazing, is that despite this degree of self awareness you seem incapable of extending anyone else even a hint of credit for doing the same unless they share your concept of what is "fun."

Case in point:

And im also getting sick of this "FUN" argument.  Its a load of crap.

Some kid in an eastern bloc country who doesn't have access to running water, electricity, is probably starving most of the time, etc, probably would think kicking a rock around a street is fun.  Does that mean its actually fun? No.  He just doesn't know any better.  To him its fun because he hasn't say experienced a rollercoaster or something like that.  Do you think after having gone to six flags or went snowboarding or something like that, that all of sudden he would go back to kicking a rock around a park and consider that fun?  

Possibly.  I mean really, "kicking a rock around a park" is just a makeshift variant of soccer (if he's got others to do it with),  hackeysack or golf,  if you boil it down to it's essence.  And there's lots of people who enjoy playing (or hell, even just *watching*) any of those games.

Now, if you gave him an actual soccer ball or footbag, he might enjoy that more than what he was doing with the old rock.  But he'd still be doing more or less the same thing - just with more advanced toys.

If he enjoys it, then it is fun for him.  Saying it's not makes you no better than the guy who dissed your idea of fun as just "addiction to the skinner box."  

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