What i learned from this thread is that Super Mario is a holy trinity game.

Mario can take hits, heal himself with mushrooms and dishout damage.

Cool.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Nitth

2 Things:

He keeps referring to Gear issues. I thought "gear issues" were abolished in gw2, and there was no notable difference in gear.

He makes it seem like its some milestone that the trinity is broken. There are games without trinities and soft trinities. Whats basicly occurring here seems like a dps is taking a tank psudo role and then switching when low on health. not rocket science.

If you are level 35 and wearing level 10 gear you will have gear issues.

 

You are correct. GW2 has more of a soft trinity (IMO) and any class can fill any role.

THIS^

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by DJJazzy

This is the most supportive "healing" build I could come up with

Staff Elementalist

I'd be interested to see how his differs

 

Hmm... couldn't get it to work, could be firewall issues here at work. Not sure.

 

I recall using a staff on an elementalist, however. If I'm not mistaken... well, let's look at the staff.

 

 

Staff — water
1	Water Blast		Spray a jet of water at foes that also heals allies in the blast radius.
2	Ice Spike	4	Drop a giant ice spike on foes, causing Vulnerability.
3	Geyser	20	Create a geyser to heal nearby allies.
4	Frozen Ground	40	Coat the target area in ice, Chilling foes that enter it.
5	Healing Rain	45	Call down a healing rain onto the target area, granting Regeneration to allies and removing conditions once every 3 seconds.

 

Skill One, Damage and support for allies close to the enemy.

Two - Damage and ... vulnerability, let's call that damage as well since it allows more damage to be done to the enemy.

Three - Definitely support, 20 second cooldown and a short range AoE affect.

Four - Pure, raw control.

Five - again support. 45 second cooldown, larger AoE effect.

 

Damage, control and support. All in one bundle. Yes, more weighted towards support than the others, however you are not a "healer". You're still doing it all, and if you're really into the swing of being an elementalist, you're also switching attunements into others that are more tilted in other aspects.

 

I'll say it again, because to me it's the only thing that makes sense in practice. There are no roles. You use the right skills at the right time depending on the situation during the fight. You can lean in one direction or the other, but it's all situational. You can't be a pure tank, a pure healer or even pure dps. The weapons alone don't allow that.

Water blasts damage output is just a joke, lets call the damage from water a side effect at best.

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

Can everone Tank? Sure

Can everyone Heal? Sure

Can everyone DPS? Sure

Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

Can everone Tank? Sure

Can everyone Heal? Sure

Can everyone DPS? Sure

Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

This ^

I swear, some of these people's definitions of the Trinity is so broad, that they had me thinking Bastion was a holy trinity game for a second..

Pretty simple answer. Can non dedicated roles complete the top 10 hardest dungeon content in GW2?

In WOW and many other games the answer is obviously no but, you can certainly complete a bunch of other dungeons in those games without the trinity.

I.E in WOTLK we used to complete heroic gundrak without a tank, on a semi-regular basis. Wasn't really possible in heroic halls of reflection though.

So I'm wondering if GW2 ends up being the same later on. Or if you really will have to pull out the heals and tankage, some top end level gameplay should help clear this up Using low level dungeons isn't enough evidence either way.

No?

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

No I wont. I get how GW2 works. I have almost 200hr play time in it. If you read my posts you will see I know very well no one char will be the healer, tank or DPS. Im just saying all 3 roles are there. How is the trinity dead if its in the game. I also bring up the point that some classes do parts of the 3 roles better then other classes. If thats the case how is the trinity dead? 

At the most basic level, the trinity is dead for a couple reasons.

 

1. There is no tank. You cannot taunt a boss and hold its attention through all the damage it receives. You cannot absorb the damage it gives.

2. There are no healers. You cannot target an ally and cast heals on them that are greater than the incoming potential damage (see Tank above). You can only offer splash healing and buffs, not enough for someone attempting to tank to survive.

3. There are no pure anything. Every weapon has a mix of damage, control and support aspects across the skills. You need to know the skills and when to use them.

 

At this most basic level, the trinity is dead. Of course, it goes much deeper. There are no set roles in GW2 at all.

Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.

1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.

2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally. 

Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now. 

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.

You're simply defining what the trinity means differently than everyone else.  No combat oriented MMO will ever be without damage (the removal of the enemy's health), healing (the restoration of an ally's health), and tanking (the mitigation of or avoidance of enemy damage.)  Nobody is saying GW2 is without these combat concepts.  You obviously have to deal damage; you obviously lose health which must be restored; and, if you wish to succeed, you must obviously do your best to avoid taking damage in the first place, cycle blinds, snares, knockbacks, dodges etc.  

Whenever anyone claims GW2 has abandoned the trinity, they mean--and only mean--that individual players will no longer be locked into performing any one of these roles exclusively.  In fact, in some cases, it's simply not possible to do so.  The player who only tries to use the few healing abilities at his disposal will be utterly worthless.  He just wouldn't contribute enough to the group.  If players only focus on dealing damage with complete disregard to the other 2 concepts, the group is doomed to fail.  And one person can simply not mitigate enough damage for everyone; in short, nobody can tank for others.  Damage mitigation falls on each individual to a very large extent.  

This changes everything.  Combat becomes much more involved, fluid and reactive for every single person involved.  

Dident Rift do this to an extent?

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally. 

Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now. 

Here's the thing: you are stating this because you are working on teh basis that heals>all other support.

Have you ever played City of heroes? There's something like a skadillion Defender primary power sets (Defenders are the support archetype), and only one, Empathy, is dedicated solely to healing. Most of the others have some healing, but focus more on damage absorption, buffs, and debuffs...It's possible and in fact likely to go ino a fight with no actual healing ability and win. I'm not saying GW2 is going to use this model for support per se; but it seems to be the direction they are taking. And I for one would love to see more games try it.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.

1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.

2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally. 

Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now. 

I see what you're saying. And I don't necessarily disagree.

I think the problem lies in the assumption that these roles are somehow forced, or required. One of the good things (imho) about GW2's class system, is that it gives people the tools to play how they want in a lot of ways. It's not limitless, but there is a ton of freedom.

Because of this, you can definitely try and play classes more like traditional roles. However, there's a key difference here. In a trinity system the game is imposing these roles on you. In GW2, if you play it in such a way, you are actually imposing these roles on yourself. You're basically trying to make the game play like what you're used to.

Nothing wrong with that, it's a good thing that there is that flexibility, but it doesn't mean the game is built around a trinity system.

Originally posted by RobertDinh

No the trinity isn't broken, when you are up against easy pve you never had to worry about the trinity in any game. 

Try it first before you call it easy.

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by Homitu

-that individual players will no longer be locked into performing any one of these roles exclusively.

Dident Rift do this to an extent?

Yes, to an extent.

However Rift is still designed around having a tank (holds threat / takes dmg), healer, and dps roles. You still can't complete a dungeon w/ out having a tank, healer & dps.

What rift did was basically take those roles, and gave players the option to fill at least two of them (and switch between them at will). However, WoW, WAR, and SWTOR all did this as well. And I don't think anyone would try and say that any of those games aren't based on the trinity model.

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by RobertDinh

No the trinity isn't broken, when you are up against easy pve you never had to worry about the trinity in any game. 

Try it first before you call it easy.

He is assuming if the Trinity is in the game it is hard and w/o it is easy. He OBVIOUSLY hasn't played the game so he is ASS-U-ME-ing that it will be easy.

It is funny (and sad) how many people jump to conclusions with no data.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by Homitu

-that individual players will no longer be locked into performing any one of these roles exclusively.

Dident Rift do this to an extent?

Yes, to an extent.

However Rift is still designed around having a tank (holds threat / takes dmg), healer, and dps roles. You still can't complete a dungeon w/ out having a tank, healer & dps.

What rift did was basically take those roles, and gave players the option to fill at least two of them (and switch between them at will). However, WoW, WAR, and SWTOR all did this as well. And I don't think anyone would try and say that any of those games aren't based on the trinity model.

Yes and no. Rift still had solid T, H, and D roles, and players were stuck in them during combat.

My Cleric was a Justicar/somethingoranother tank build most of the time, but had a Shaman/Druid DPS spec I switched to when needed. The main importance being I could only do this out of combat.

In the GW2 model I can be fulfilling all three roles in the same fight without swapping talent trees or whatever.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by RobertDinh

No the trinity isn't broken, when you are up against easy pve you never had to worry about the trinity in any game. 

Try it first before you call it easy.

He is assuming if the Trinity is in the game it is hard and w/o it is easy. He OBVIOUSLY hasn't played the game so he is ASS-U-ME-ing that it will be easy.

It is funny (and sad) how many people jump to conclusions with no data.

No, he's refering to them doing the story-mode, which is easy, instead of the explorable-mode, which would be the actually challenge to overcome to really prove the point they were trying to make. 

That's not quite true though, explorable mode is supposed to be tuned for a well-balanced group that can provide all roles, damage, control and support, not a pure DPS group.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

Can everone Tank? Sure

Can everyone Heal? Sure

Can everyone DPS? Sure

Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

So wiping through a low level dungeon is proof that the trinity is broken. I see.

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

Can everone Tank? Sure

Can everyone Heal? Sure

Can everyone DPS? Sure

Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

 

Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

 

At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

MINE!!!!

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by Homitu

-that individual players will no longer be locked into performing any one of these roles exclusively.

Dident Rift do this to an extent?

Yes, to an extent.

However Rift is still designed around having a tank (holds threat / takes dmg), healer, and dps roles. You still can't complete a dungeon w/ out having a tank, healer & dps.

What rift did was basically take those roles, and gave players the option to fill at least two of them (and switch between them at will). However, WoW, WAR, and SWTOR all did this as well. And I don't think anyone would try and say that any of those games aren't based on the trinity model.

Yes and no. Rift still had solid T, H, and D roles, and players were stuck in them during combat.

 

My Cleric was a Justicar/somethingoranother tank build most of the time, but had a Shaman/Druid DPS spec I switched to when needed. The main importance being I could only do this out of combat.

 

In the GW2 model I can be fulfilling all three roles in the same fight without swapping talent trees or whatever.

Pretty sure we just said the same thing?

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

Last time I'll explain this lol

If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

*sigh*

Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

Can everone Tank? Sure

Can everyone Heal? Sure

Can everyone DPS? Sure

Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

 

Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

 

At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

Well damn in this case even games that didn't have the trinity system, have it.