Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

A friend can twink me.

I may have more free time to grind than you.

I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

A friend can twink me.

I may have more free time to grind than you.

I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

There is fairness in games.  Just most people have no problem doing things like using cheats or buying power instead of earning it.  Often they cheat and don't realize it's not them that got the win, but the cheat/exploit they used.  They are usually quick to brag about "skill" too.

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

A friend can twink me.

I may have more free time to grind than you.

I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

There is fairness in games.  Just most people have no problem doing things like using cheats or buying power instead of earning it.  Often they cheat and don't realize it's not them that got the win, but the cheat/exploit they used.  They are usually quick to brag about "skill" too.

If "fairness" is unenforceable, it is meaningless. If i have the uber sword, you won't know if i got twinked by a friend, use a cheat, or earn it. So the concept is practically meaningless.

No dev has enough resources to plug all the holes & exploits.

And once again, my point is that it is ultimately futile to try to obtain fairness in a GAME. Fun is much more important. If fairness impact your fun .. it is really too bad. You can either delude yourself that the game is fair, or go for some other form of entertainment.

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

Why does it need to be fair to be entertaining? Entertainment comes from power, comes from progression, comes from seeing monster killed in creative manners.

Fairness does not have to be in it. In fact, when i group, i seldom care if the guy earn his gear ... i care more if he has the right gear to make the run effiicient and fun.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by jackie28

I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

Why does it need to be fair to be entertaining? Entertainment comes from power, comes from progression, comes from seeing monster killed in creative manners.

Fairness does not have to be in it. In fact, when i group, i seldom care if the guy earn his gear ... i care more if he has the right gear to make the run effiicient and fun.

Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

Games are not coded with security in mind.  Often, they don't even learn from previous mistakes.  No software is coded perfectly and unable to have bugs or cheats/exploits/etc.  That said, there are a lot of levels to that.  Games are pretty much on the very bottom.  It's all afterthought to game makers.

Originally posted by paroxysm

 

Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

What does challenge has to do with money? Hard mode raid is hard. Diablo inferno is hard. It does not matter if you pump money into it or not.

Plus, no one says YOU have to buy your way. It is a free world. You don't have to use the RMAH or cash shop. It does not affect YOUR challenge.

I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

Using money/knowing how to play is two independent things. There are those who pay and don't play well, and those who do. If you go into a PUG, you won't know whether they pay anyway but you do know if they play well. If they play well, do you care if they pay? You can always quit when you encounter someone who does not know how to play (i did that all the time).

Personally, i find as long as the gameplay is fun, RMT does not detract from it. In fact, in D3, it enchances it, because i can actualy sell stuff.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by paroxysm

 Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

What does challenge has to do with money? Hard mode raid is hard. Diablo inferno is hard. It does not matter if you pump money into it or not.

Plus, no one says YOU have to buy your way. It is a free world. You don't have to use the RMAH or cash shop. It does not affect YOUR challenge.

I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

Using money/knowing how to play is two independent things. There are those who pay and don't play well, and those who do. If you go into a PUG, you won't know whether they pay anyway but you do know if they play well. If they play well, do you care if they pay? You can always quit when you encounter someone who does not know how to play (i did that all the time).

Personally, i find as long as the gameplay is fun, RMT does not detract from it. In fact, in D3, it enchances it, because i can actualy sell stuff.

 

If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

Money corrupts. This genre is no exception to that it seems. 

Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

Originally posted by paroxysm

 

If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

The market gives in to what players want.

Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by paroxysm

 

If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

 

 Glad the game is fun for you and thank the gods that there is other games to play.

Originally posted by laserit

It comes with some things in life really...

Things that were frowned upon in the past, are accepted and everyday in the future. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

Fixed for you. Certain things have been condemned throughout human history, and some things that were actually approved of in the past are now condemned.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

The market gives in to what players want.

Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

 

Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by paroxysm

 

If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

 

If you can not progress in the game without buying items from the RMAH, then it's not a game worth playing in my opinion.  It is very poorly designed.

Maybe if you are using the RMAH to get gear you can not yourself obtain otherwise just to avoid farming endlessly, the game just might not be worth playing.  Once you have that purchased gear, what is the point of that game other than using that top gear to find more gear just to sell to other players.  That's a horrible treadmill designed to do nothing but keep people buying and selling items.  For which the company takes a portion of the profits.  Sounds worse than a job to me.

The only "extra" entertainment you see is greed.  It's not fun to me to buy gear to not have to work for it, to then use that gear to farm gear to sell to others, and repeat with them the bypassing of playing the game as well.

Honestly, the only point that you have made and repeated multiple times is that you enjoy making money.  Blizzard will love to keep you as a customer since every time you make money off others, they make more money too in transaction fees.  Your entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game.  It's the same as theirs.  Greed.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

The market gives in to what players want.

Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

 

Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.

Why frown on something that so many wants? Remind me of Prohibition. It is totally illegical.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

The market gives in to what players want.

Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

 

Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.

Do you adhere your beliefs to what others tell you is ok or do you make your own decisions and stick to your beliefs?

Either you think it's wrong or you think it's fine.  But don't let a company tell you what to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that those who endorse gold selling are gold sellers themselves. Thus making their arguments extremely biased.

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by paroxysm

 

If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

 

If you can not progress in the game without buying items from the RMAH, then it's not a game worth playing in my opinion.  It is very poorly designed.

Maybe if you are using the RMAH to get gear you can not yourself obtain otherwise just to avoid farming endlessly, the game just might not be worth playing.  Once you have that purchased gear, what is the point of that game other than using that top gear to find more gear just to sell to other players.  That's a horrible treadmill designed to do nothing but keep people buying and selling items.  For which the company takes a portion of the profits.  Sounds worse than a job to me.

The only "extra" entertainment you see is greed.  It's not fun to me to buy gear to not have to work for it, to then use that gear to farm gear to sell to others, and repeat with them the bypassing of playing the game as well.

Honestly, the only point that you have made and repeated multiple times is that you enjoy making money.  Blizzard will love to keep you as a customer since every time you make money off others, they make more money too in transaction fees.  Your entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game.  It's the same as theirs.  Greed.

I enjoy the combat mechanics too. To answer your questions:

1) Whether it is worth playing is up to the user. Given the high sales of D3, obviously it is worth playing for many. For me, if i find the combat fun, and if the RMT part is either fun or neutral, the game is worth playing.

2) It is not a job if combat is fun. If combat is not fun, i won't play independent of whether there is RMT. Secondly, the point is to beat Diablo .. you can't do that (or take very long) without using the AH. Oh, no one says i will play the game forever. When ti is finished, i move on.

3) What is wrong with greed? It is human nature. There are whole CITIES (like Vegas) catering to that emotion. If i find it exciting to make money off the RMAH, i don't see a problem. Oh i am sure Blizz loves to keep me as a customer. Nothing wrong with that. They get money, and i get fun ... isn't that what game company is supposed to be about?

The amount of money involved in D3 is small compared to a real job ... the right analogy is gambling, which is of course fun for many. So i see D3 as a good ARPG, with some RM gambling aspect thrown in.