Originally posted by EvilestTwin

5 man raids aren't considered raids?   So how many players is the 'minimum' required for an instanced dungeon run to be considered a 'raid'?

 

In the "traditional" definition, a raid is any massing of players that incoroprates more than one party. So if your party size is five, your smallest raid would be two parties, ergo 10 players. I can understand the idea that a 5-man dungeon crawl is a raid too though, in its own little way.

Originally posted by EvilestTwin

5 man raids aren't considered raids?   So how many players is the 'minimum' required for an instanced dungeon run to be considered a 'raid'?

With that number dwindling more and more over the years 5 probably would fit by now. Those that want to pack more players in should probably refer to it as multi-group dungeons to be specific.

Seems like a lost passtime to run dungeons for fun or challenge...

Originally posted by Mellkor

Seems like a lost passtime to run dungeons for fun or challenge...

Or pursue any activity in game without an obvious reward?

Yah, vanished at least a decade ago.

This is a tough question for me, since I always support more options for more people in MMOs. However, I don't want anything like traditional 15-20+ man raids polluting this game. It's not just the gear grind that bothers me, it's what these big raids do to the community.

Also, not too keen to have live development resources go to raids.

So, in this case, I guess I just have to say "No", there are other games for that.

Now, if Arenanet wanted to create a seperate GW2 based raiding game, or even a Structured Raiding Sub-game that would work like structured PVP, except it would be large dungeon raids; funded and sold seperately? Maybe.

I love raiding, but .. there hasn't been a good raid in a long, long time. Ulduaar was the last time I truly enjoyed raiding. Too many gimmicks (I know Ulduaar had gimmicks too) ..

The unfortunate reality (at least how I perceive it) is that raiding doesn't love games anymore. There was a time when games were designed around raiding in large part. These days they are designed around doing the least amount possible to achieve the shiniest set of pixels.

So maybe not even worrying about raids is a good thing.

The more options the better.

Originally posted by azmundai

The unfortunate reality (at least how I perceive it) is that raiding doesn't love games anymore. There was a time when games were designed around raiding in large part. These days they are designed around doing the least amount possible to achieve the shiniest set of pixels.

A nice long discussion about the effects of making Trophies dirt-common on a player base trained to collect Trophies as the primary pasttime of a game seems to be in order.

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Originally posted by Alders
The more options the better.
 

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yes and no. more options means less dev time per option, and more complexities due to overlap, especially in regard to pvp vs pve. one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.

I don't really know what "support" means in this context.

As far as other people having more options to have fun, I support that.

As far as me having fun, I don't care for raids and I have zero interest in cosmetic items. For that reason, I voted "noq." Just because I wouldn't use it. But if other people had fun with it, I wouldn't begrudge them that.

Originally posted by azmundai

one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.

Don't personally consider that Blizzard's biggest mistake.  Balancing PVE and PVP in the same environment has always been a fingernail-pulling level of challenge for developers.  Nobody's got it right yet, not even the most popular game on Earth.

I'd look at it from the other side; how many times does it have to fail before devs stop trying to beat the square peg into a round hole?

Being that guild wars 1 had dungeons/instances that only gave cosmetic weapons and took 40-60 minutes it was still fun.

The only reason why players want an advantage in gear is because they are scared their skills arent up to par with their foe in pvp.

I wouldn´t mind....

But if you think you are not going to have a challenge experience at some dungeons/areas of the game as big as raids.....

...it´s because you don´t know ArenaNet.

No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.

No way, the game doesn't need more instances and as for open raids it already have things close to them.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.

Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite?  Exclusive  loot progression created just for PVP?

Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Vorthanion

No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.

Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite?  Exclusive  loot progression created just for PVP?

Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear.  Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Vorthanion

No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.

Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite?  Exclusive  loot progression created just for PVP?

Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear.  Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.

Ah, a little playstyle inferiority complex.  Thanks for explaining, no time for this...arguments about it tend to run fifty pages, or used to.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear.  Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.

Raiders usually can live with the hardest PvP gear is about as good as raid gear, but in GW2 all lvl 80 geqar will be balanced. That will be a rather hard thing to swallow for regular raiders.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Vorthanion

No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.

Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite?  Exclusive  loot progression created just for PVP?

Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear.  Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.

Ah, a little playstyle inferiority complex.  Thanks for explaining, no time for this.

Not in the least.  It's a known fact that this is one of the biggest motivators for both raiders and developers who want to addict them to it.  The only way developers can entice these addicts to replay raids ad nauseum is to make them feel like they are superior to regular gamers, both in gear and in gaming social status.  Pavlov 101.  Maybe I struck a nerve?