Trending Games | Landmark | Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade | Camelot Unchained | Elder Scrolls Online

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,919,523 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,309,899
ArenaNet | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 08/28/12)  | Pub:NCSoft
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download,Retail | Retail Price:$49.99 | Pay Type:Free | Monthly Fee:n/a
System Req: PC Mac | Out of date info? Let us know!

Guild Wars 2 Forum » General Discussion » WvW Problems vs ESO

11 posts found
  HoiPoloi

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/12
Posts: 88

 
OP  6/30/13 12:43:54 AM#1

I originally posted this in an ESO thread, but I thought it would be good for more discussion in the GW2 forum.

Here are what I think are the problems with GW2 WvW.  Also, I show that from what we know, ESO will not be making these mistakes.  (Take it with a grain of salt, obviously -- we'll see at launch).

1) AoE damage limit to 5 people (same for healing/support). This favours the zerg disproportionately. (ESO will have no limit, but hard counters -- was discussed in a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview)

2) The "Downed State" - anyone can rez in combat. Again this favours the zerg, as more hands can get people up. It also hampers the skilled solo player. (ESO will only allow certain specs to rez in combat).

3) Over-emphasis on siege. I really hope ESO doesn't make this mistake. GW2 just buffed siege, and now siege just trumps all fights, again lowering the skill level.

4) Broken Stealth. Stealth is always controversial, but GW2 allows restealthing in combat. This means stealth is low risk, high reward. From what I've read, stealth in ESO will require trade-offs.

5) Maps are far too small in GW2, again favouring the zerg. Shouldn't be a problem in ESO.

6) Lack of viable Alternative Advancement or some kind of gear/stat progression in WvW. Shouldn't be gamebreaking or OP, but there should be something. Instead we have WXP that allows you to increase your siege skills. Argh!  ESO has stressed in many interviews advancement in AvA is a big part of endgame.

If GW2 corrects all these things before ESO launches, I would be tempted to stay in GW, simply because we have such a great WvW community on Tarnished Coast. Somehow I doubt it will happen though.

Thrumdi of the TTC

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7637

6/30/13 12:54:55 AM#2
Originally posted by HoiPoloi

I originally posted this in an ESO thread, but I thought it would be good for more discussion in the GW2 forum.

Here are what I think are the problems with GW2 WvW.  Also, I show that from what we know, ESO will not be making these mistakes.  (Take it with a grain of salt, obviously -- we'll see at launch).

1) AoE damage limit to 5 people (same for healing/support). This favours the zerg disproportionately. (ESO will have no limit, but hard counters -- was discussed in a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview)I don't think I agree with this.

2) The "Downed State" - anyone can rez in combat. Again this favours the zerg, as more hands can get people up. It also hampers the skilled solo player. (ESO will only allow certain specs to rez in combat). Downed state was a really dumb idea, really dumb. Over the top coddling.

3) Over-emphasis on siege. I really hope ESO doesn't make this mistake. GW2 just buffed siege, and now siege just trumps all fights, again lowering the skill level. i never looked at it like this, but i could not agree more. Excellent eye my friend.

4) Broken Stealth. Stealth is always controversial, but GW2 allows restealthing in combat. This means stealth is low risk, high reward. From what I've read, stealth in ESO will require trade-offs. The last two mmos i've played TSW, and Wushu have no stealth. Wushu does a great job with real stealth, hiding behind corners and jumping off roof top stuff. i don't miss the invisible guy method.

5) Maps are far too small in GW2, again favouring the zerg. Shouldn't be a problem in ESO. Too small, yeah but equally important, there's nothing else to do there. It feels like a battle ground, and not that good of one.

6) Lack of viable Alternative Advancement or some kind of gear/stat progression in WvW. Shouldn't be gamebreaking or OP, but there should be something. Instead we have WXP that allows you to increase your siege skills. Argh!  ESO has stressed in many interviews advancement in AvA is a big part of endgame. Yeah they missed the boat on progression all together. I think it was by design though.

If GW2 corrects all these things before ESO launches, I would be tempted to stay in GW, simply because we have such a great WvW community on Tarnished Coast. Somehow I doubt it will happen though.

Atleast that's how i see it.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

6/30/13 1:02:29 AM#3
Originally posted by bcbully

4) Broken Stealth. Stealth is always controversial, but GW2 allows restealthing in combat. This means stealth is low risk, high reward. From what I've read, stealth in ESO will require trade-offs. The last two mmos i've played TSW, and Wushu have no stealth. Wushu does a great job with real stealth, hiding behind corners and jumping off roof top stuff. i don't miss the invisible guy method.

Atleast that's how i see it.

Good point, the problem is you can't hide behind something all the time, and a lot of people (not me, personally) love "stealth" classes, ie: "invisible guy method".  I think it's a cheap way to get kills and rogues are the least skilled people in pvp because of it.  Hell, when I left WoW, you could go back into stealth in combat too, and WoW's rogues do about the same level of burst damage in relation to overall health pools as GW2 thieves. On the other hand, having "invisibility" as a technique for escape should always remain available and viable.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2889

There... are... four... lights!

6/30/13 6:21:50 AM#4
Originally posted by HoiPoloi

I originally posted this in an ESO thread, but I thought it would be good for more discussion in the GW2 forum.

Here are what I think are the problems with GW2 WvW.  Also, I show that from what we know, ESO will not be making these mistakes.  (Take it with a grain of salt, obviously -- we'll see at launch).

1) AoE damage limit to 5 people (same for healing/support). This favours the zerg disproportionately. (ESO will have no limit, but hard counters -- was discussed in a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview)

Seems to me that not limiting AOE will only make zergs even more efficient... granted, a smaller group will affect a whole bigger zerg, yet the whole zerg will also affect the whole smaller group.


2) The "Downed State" - anyone can rez in combat. Again this favours the zerg, as more hands can get people up. It also hampers the skilled solo player. (ESO will only allow certain specs to rez in combat).

That's because you understand the downed state the wrong way. You're not dead when downed, just incapacitated. People can keep shooting at you just like before until you're death. It's additional heath at reduced efficiency everybody has. People disliking the downed state are those who don't understand it, and assume it's someone already dead, which isn't true. They think "dang, I just killed that guy and he's alive again"... WRONG! You should have kept shooting at him until he was really dead.

Tell me, what is different... a character with e.g. 20k health and 8k downed state health, or one with 28k health?

Yeah, you got it, it's the same... so the zerg will still win anyway. Numbers always make a difference in war. Actually, it's easier to kill a character with 20k health and 8k downed state, since when downed its seriously crippled, than a character that can fight at 100% efficiency through his whole 28k health.


3) Over-emphasis on siege. I really hope ESO doesn't make this mistake. GW2 just buffed siege, and now siege just trumps all fights, again lowering the skill level.

It's a good thing they buffed siege. It was too easy to take keeps. And I don't see how it lowers skill level. It actually permits more defense tactics, as opposed to an attacked keep is almost always lost, specially the smaller ones.


4) Broken Stealth. Stealth is always controversial, but GW2 allows restealthing in combat. This means stealth is low risk, high reward. From what I've read, stealth in ESO will require trade-offs.

Stealth in GW2 also has trade-offs and is limited, unlike games like WoW. If ESO wants to do it properly, they won't add stealth at all. Invisibility on a low cooldown will always be overpowered.


5) Maps are far too small in GW2, again favouring the zerg. Shouldn't be a problem in ESO.

Maps are quite big enough, it already takes enough time to run back to the action when you die. When I enter a PvP map, it's for PvP, not to spend ages before I even meet someone.


6) Lack of viable Alternative Advancement or some kind of gear/stat progression in WvW. Shouldn't be gamebreaking or OP, but there should be something. Instead we have WXP that allows you to increase your siege skills. Argh!  ESO has stressed in many interviews advancement in AvA is a big part of endgame.

There is an horizontal advancement for WvW in GW2, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, it exists and yeah, it's related to siege warfare which is what WvW is all about.


If GW2 corrects all these things before ESO launches, I would be tempted to stay in GW, simply because we have such a great WvW community on Tarnished Coast. Somehow I doubt it will happen though.

If you think ESO will be very different, that there won't be zergs, then you're in for a huge deception.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  johaocarl

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 113

6/30/13 10:14:33 AM#5

You are delluding yourselves.

Sincerelly, ESO will have the same zerg that GW2 wvw have and any other rvr have. Zerg will ever rule. And the same for siege battles, I am sure ESO will have them a lot because, be real, there is no other way for a dev concentrate players at same place in game for make big battles that everyone want see in rvr  than have keeps for conquer.  

Sadly, maybe ESO rvr be worse than what we see at GW2, because no game start perfect, but it is perfected over the time. GW2 had a lot of patches making wvw better, ESO will not have that luxury when launch.

And for make things worse, ESO will not be a MMO, but a "multiplayer" game*. I guess it will will not have some features, like crafting.

 

*it is confirmed ESO will not be a MMO, so it is not an opinion.

  Siphaed

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 795

7/01/13 3:14:03 AM#6
Originally posted by johaocarl

You are delluding yourselves.

Sincerelly, ESO will have the same zerg that GW2 wvw have and any other rvr have. Zerg will ever rule. And the same for siege battles, I am sure ESO will have them a lot because, be real, there is no other way for a dev concentrate players at same place in game for make big battles that everyone want see in rvr  than have keeps for conquer.  

Sadly, maybe ESO rvr be worse than what we see at GW2, because no game start perfect, but it is perfected over the time. GW2 had a lot of patches making wvw better, ESO will not have that luxury when launch.

And for make things worse, ESO will not be a MMO, but a "multiplayer" game*. I guess it will will not have some features, like crafting.

 

*it is confirmed ESO will not be a MMO, so it is not an opinion.

Well no shit it's not an MMO, the damned thing is launching on consoles as well as PC.  That just says right there that it'll be "MMO-lite" to accommodate the console style gameplay.  What's that mean?  It means that chat and emotes will be thrown to the side, if they're even there at all. Menus will be horribly created.  Graphics options will be...well hell, let's see if they even include any.

 

Though the game will have crafting, source http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/media/videos/567

 

Though from what I've seen in the game's videos, including the most recent E3 2013 one, is that the game's design is kind of narrow and streamed just like Age of Conan originally is/was.  TESO's equivalent to WvW, from the E3 video, looks very zergy (see 1:13), with treb siege usage (2x about 2sec prior), and a giant clusterfuck around a broken keep wall.  

 

Known fact of TESO's Alliance War:   Split sides 3-ways based on race.  Significance to GW2?  Well, in GW2 a server is 100% side, another server is 100% another side, and another is 100% another side.  What that means is that no matter what race/class blend players choose in GW2, the sides are balanced.....but with TESO's race-split, there will be an unbalance based on what people want as far as looks, creed, lore, and other choices that make up their race, which is a set piece of a faction.

 

Elder Scrolls Artifacts = Orb of Power = exploits/hacking WILL happen.    Remember how OOP was removed in GW2 because the exploiting and hacking, which made a team far more powerful than it's enemies due to said cheating?  Well, this is the exact same thing that TESO will repeat with it's "Elder Scrolls Artifacts" idea.  How long will that go over well with the players?

 

Added added note:  TESO requires a player to reach level 10 prior to doing any PvP.  Hmmm....what level does GW2 require?  Level 2 (because level 1 is all about tutorial run).

 

 

Overall, I think that their set up mechanics of Throne Control, race-related faction lock-ins, power items that increase the power of the side already in the lead, and the obviousness that the game WILL HAVE ZERGS, it's all pointing to one very piss-poor  set up of "I'm sick of always being on the bottom run and outnumbered!' from the less popular race/faction.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

7/01/13 3:28:22 PM#7

Any thing involving a lot of players pvping, no matter how it's done will have zergs not an opinion, that is fact, especially with guns not being used as primary, even then PS2 has zergs so that is not even the remedy.

This is just before I even read the OP, I'll come back and edit but had to get this tid bit off cause I have a feeling zergs is one of the problems in the op, just a reality check if people believe zergs is the issue and can be fixed, it can't, unless we could control the minds of the masses in WVWVW or huge battlefield type games.

You can lessen the temptation to be in a zerg but then mass battles would feel pointless. *Researches multiple MMORPGs and mass battle games.* Wow would you look at that in almost each serach you can find zergs being a problem in [all] these games...TSO will have a thread too about zergs in the near future. 

 

Okay now I'm back from reading the OP.

 

Haha 1 and 5 done by any way you will still have zergs, that there is common sense, larger maps, give you zergs as well.

2 and 3 I disagree, funny enough flip them both backwards or to be opposite whelp you have opposite complaints and almost meaning the same, especially number 3 either way if done the way you [want] it there will be a person shouting "Okay seiges are pointless no skill required just ZERG!" Yes I said it, zerg will be much prefered then seiges themselves, why have seiges that can take out people in a strategic manor when you can just use man power cause the seiges are weak.

4 I partly agree, I don't like some punk ass stealthing and killin, how ever the updates to skills seem interesting and it's good to have a thief on your team for team work, stealth can't /winall

 

6 subjective, as I find what's going to be given and currently given, enough.

 

Hmmm whelp those are my opininons and to be honest least for the above, it's fact in games like these there will be zergs, it's up to you the player to form a team that doesn't follow them or to have a "productive." zerg. Also once again 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  fiontar

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3713

7/01/13 4:08:05 PM#8
Originally posted by HoiPoloi

I originally posted this in an ESO thread, but I thought it would be good for more discussion in the GW2 forum.

Here are what I think are the problems with GW2 WvW.  Also, I show that from what we know, ESO will not be making these mistakes.  (Take it with a grain of salt, obviously -- we'll see at launch).

1) AoE damage limit to 5 people (same for healing/support). This favours the zerg disproportionately. (ESO will have no limit, but hard counters -- was discussed in a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview)

2) The "Downed State" - anyone can rez in combat. Again this favours the zerg, as more hands can get people up. It also hampers the skilled solo player. (ESO will only allow certain specs to rez in combat).

3) Over-emphasis on siege. I really hope ESO doesn't make this mistake. GW2 just buffed siege, and now siege just trumps all fights, again lowering the skill level.

4) Broken Stealth. Stealth is always controversial, but GW2 allows restealthing in combat. This means stealth is low risk, high reward. From what I've read, stealth in ESO will require trade-offs.

5) Maps are far too small in GW2, again favouring the zerg. Shouldn't be a problem in ESO.

6) Lack of viable Alternative Advancement or some kind of gear/stat progression in WvW. Shouldn't be gamebreaking or OP, but there should be something. Instead we have WXP that allows you to increase your siege skills. Argh!  ESO has stressed in many interviews advancement in AvA is a big part of endgame.

If GW2 corrects all these things before ESO launches, I would be tempted to stay in GW, simply because we have such a great WvW community on Tarnished Coast. Somehow I doubt it will happen though.

1. I agree the AoE limit in GW2 favors the zerg. There has to be some limit, but five is just sad.

2. I disagree on this one. Downed state and universal revive are one of the best innovations to this game. I've also noticed that the anonymity of a large zerg often leads to people ignoring downed players. I've seen smaller groups hold out or win vs. a full zerg by being more attentive to reviving.

3. Sorry, I don't see an over-emphasis on Siege in GW2. IMO, it could use even more siege. A smaller group can defend against a zerg with intelligent placement and use of siege. Siege is a tool against the Zerg, more than a tool of the zerg.

4. I agree on stealth.

5. WvW maps too small? I assume that's a joke.

6. WvW does offer the right kind of alternative advancement. Ranks and WvW "traits" that only effect WvW. Expand it? Sure, but to say it doesn't exist or is meaningless?

Since ESO isn't out yet, you might also want to provide references to show why you think ESO is different on any given count. Seems to me you are just making assumptions and we have no idea if those assumptions have any basis in fact.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  cranthug

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 62

Thought begets heresy.

7/01/13 4:28:16 PM#9
Originally posted by Vladamyre
 

[mod edit]

Mike Ferguson, lead designer for WvW in Guild Wars 2, was a former Mythic employee heavily involved in work on DAOC.  The other lead designer for WvW in Guild Wars 2 was also a former Mythic employee, though he worked on Warhammer Online.

Upon finding this out before the GW2 release, I also shared your optimism that the people making the game would deliver a quality experience.  Apparently you can't rely on past laurels to guarantee  future success. 

  johaocarl

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 113

7/02/13 10:39:34 AM#10
Originally posted by cranthug
Originally posted by Vladamyre
 

[mod edit]

Mike Ferguson, lead designer for WvW in Guild Wars 2, was a former Mythic employee heavily involved in work on DAOC.  The other lead designer for WvW in Guild Wars 2 was also a former Mythic employee, though he worked on Warhammer Online.

Upon finding this out before the GW2 release, I also shared your optimism that the people making the game would deliver a quality experience.  Apparently you can't rely on past laurels to guarantee  future success. 

IMHO, they are doing a good work trying make the WvW better. WvW had a lot of love last months (end of culling, ranks, new wvw abilities, traps) and it is a lot funnier now than at launch. We like it or not, every RvR will end being zerg wars. The problem is not with the game, it is with the players that play the game: we are humans and humans are social apes.

  mazut

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/08
Posts: 837

7/02/13 4:17:19 PM#11
Originally posted by HoiPoloi

I originally posted this in an ESO thread, but I thought it would be good for more discussion in the GW2 forum.

Here are what I think are the problems with GW2 WvW.  Also, I show that from what we know, ESO will not be making these mistakes.  (Take it with a grain of salt, obviously -- we'll see at launch).

1) AoE damage limit to 5 people (same for healing/support). This favours the zerg disproportionately. (ESO will have no limit, but hard counters -- was discussed in a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview)

 

And we are going back to Warhammer Online, where 2-3 AoE dmg dealers can wipe 50 people in 10 secs.

Have fun ;)