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Guild Wars 2 Forum » General Discussion » Roles/classes and Endgame

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29 posts found
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

1/11/13 8:48:07 AM#21

First GW2 hasnt been out 6 months - been out since September 24, 2012. I don't count the beta test times, either.

1. We don't need raids - if you want GW2 to be JUST like Rift, WoW, etc then fine - I prefer NOT to have them and am grateful GW2 doesn't.

2. Roles - like the trinity? - Then it would be just a clone.

Basically what you want is nother WoW clone - play WoW and be don e with it.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Dakeru

Elite Member

Joined: 9/21/09
Posts: 1065

1/11/13 8:53:25 AM#22

Oh you mean certain skills giving you a huge advantage in a certain situation?

Hmm, out of my head I would say Mesmer in the swamp fractals gives you a huge benefit. Mesmer creates a portal in the middle of the map. Everyone grabs the wisps and runs to the portal - map clearance within seconds.

  User Deleted
1/11/13 9:09:03 AM#23
Originally posted by Scalpless
 I don't know about control mesmer, they don't have many good CC skills.

 Um what? Mesmers are the kings of CC.

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1355

1/11/13 10:10:12 AM#24
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Scalpless
 I don't know about control mesmer, they don't have many good CC skills.

 Um what? Mesmers are the kings of CC.

They've got iZerker and iWave, Magic Bullet, iLeap -> Swap, Counter Blade, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, Mantra of Distraction, Chaos Storm and Diversion. GS skills are great for crowd control, Magic Bullet is alright and Temporal Curtain is fantastic, but other than that... Counter Blade and Diversion are too short for PvE, iLeap misses half of the time, Chaos Storm is random and MoD is a Mantra.

Compared to the CC other classes can pull off, that's not a great list. A Warrior can get four superb CC skills from Hammer alone. Of course, Mesmer has some CC traits, too, but they don't change the big picture IMO.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/11/13 10:22:13 AM#25
Originally posted by Scalpless
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Scalpless
 I don't know about control mesmer, they don't have many good CC skills.

 Um what? Mesmers are the kings of CC.

They've got iZerker and iWave, Magic Bullet, iLeap -> Swap, Counter Blade, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, Mantra of Distraction, Chaos Storm and Diversion. GS skills are great for crowd control, Magic Bullet is alright and Temporal Curtain is fantastic, but other than that... Counter Blade and Diversion are too short for PvE, iLeap misses half of the time, Chaos Storm is random and MoD is a Mantra.

Compared to the CC other classes can pull off, that's not a great list. A Warrior can get four superb CC skills from Hammer alone. Of course, Mesmer has some CC traits, too, but they don't change the big picture IMO.

Oh, there's more than that. Crippling Dissipation, for example... clones apply cripple when killed. That's an AoE cripple by the way... you can keep a group hobbling around quite nicely. Combine that with traiting to create a clone when you dodge and you have a mass degree of crippling goodness.  A well timed Feedback can work in situations. Confusion is a form of CC which can limit attacks or damage those that fail to accept those limits. Invisibilities break a target on you and allies and can keep the enemy from knowing where to go in the first place. The Desperate Decoy trait gives the enemy a false target... CC isn't simply restricting their movement but controlling where they may go as well by leading them in the wrong direction.

Mesmer focus 4 is a tremendous CC skill used tactically. You can speed up allies, cripple foes, pull foes towards you, pull them away from you... 

 

Mesmers don't lack in any way, shape or form when it comes to CC. We're masters at it. A warrior may have four great CC skills on the hammer, but if he can't get close enough to you to hit you, or if he's swinging at false targets...

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Maelzrael

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/12
Posts: 323

I like games.

 
OP  1/11/13 6:31:18 PM#26
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Maelzrael

I'm finding after roughly 6 months of play that roles are important to mmo's. The reason is that roles make you feel important. I love my necromancer and my mesmer to death.. but there is no need for them in a group. Sure mesmers have time warp, and necros can do some serious condition damage(amoung other talents for each class).. but without roles.. or the need for them.. It kinda seems like theres no reason to be one class over another. They can all perform all roles.. and theres no content that requires any specific class/role to complete.

I think Gw2 is an amazing game.. i think the idea that any class can perform any of the Gw2 roles is great. But i think some changes need to happen to make the game truely epic.

1. Raids: we need a reason to get full exotics.. we need a reason to need all the classes/roles to be filled.

2. Roles: we need more clearly defineable roles in order to make building a build to suite that role meaningful. I am not saying we need the trinity, im saying we need a reason to be a control mesmer or a condition necro, a reason to be a *tank-esk* warrior or a support gaurdian.

Sum: We need more endgame options/progression, and we need the class and build you choose to matter more.

Side note: At level 80 all areas of the game should offer roughly the same rewards as the dungeons.. currently only dungeons grant enough money to be worth doing, exploring/de's and other game content dont offer much of a reward to speak of and therefore feel sorta pointless save the experience of seeing it all. I hope Arenanet sees all this as well and makes a move towards adding more complexity to the game and evening things out.. Practicing more of what they preached while making being a level 80 with full exotics worth something other then "im cool look at me".\

Thats it thanks for reading if you did. Comment and post.. but dont troll, thats rude.

I have to disagree with the need for clearly defined roles. What's needed is for people to actually understand the skills and how and when to use them. Mesmers, for example, are great for all areas of damage, control and support, but only if you "do it right"... that is use your skills to get the right effects at the right time. You're not going to spam focus 4 off cooldown, for example, you're going to use it to, based on circumstances:

1. Give allies a needed speed boost.

2. Apply cripples to foes, allowing yourself or allies to gain distance

3. Pull foes towards you or party members

4. Pull foes away from you or party members

5. (PvP) Throw foes off cliffs for the giggly fun of it.

 

You have so much versatility in GW2... unlike games with set roles, rotations, etc. It's a relearning experience, but once you really get the feel for it combat begins to flow. Every profession has a lot to offer in all aspects of the game, and even more when you work together with others. A warrior stomp in a mesmer field that makes allies in the area go invisible? A thing of beauty. Maybe I put up a field to remove conditions from allies and they use that field to stack confusion on the enemy... aw yeah.

 

Stop trying to force yourself into a role. Instead, learn to see the fight going on around you and situationally react. 

Let me say that i agree with everything you're saying, what my problem is, is that there is no content that makes it a nessessity to have a mesmer with this ability. Combo fields are amazing, chaos storm is my absolute favorite mesmer skill and the reason I run a staff build most of the time, however i find that there is no reason for me to do so other then the fact that i enjoy it. Nobody appreciates all the support skills im useing. Nobody needs my portal, and when i use it, say on CoF path 1 to get past the fire boulders, nobody cares. In *some* other games, you have to come up with all kinds of tactical uses for the skills of all the classes in the game, and you need one of every class in your group to complete certain areas. I'm really not trying to change what Gw2 has, as some people seem to interrpret this post, I want them to add to it. The big "raid" type content, such as the shatterer fight, are just zerg fests. That boss dies in less then 2 minutes 90% of the time, and the rewards are bleh. We need a reason kill him, and the challenge should meet the reward..

Give me a good reason to have my mesmer blink behind the boss at that key moment an drop a portal allowing a vast majority of players to get to safety(for example).

Perhaps its not that each class doesnt have the skills, or "matter". Perhaps its that there is no content that requires us to get on vent and come up with a killer strategy to complete it.

  Maelzrael

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/12
Posts: 323

I like games.

 
OP  1/12/13 12:13:43 AM#27
Also, why is a rogue different from a mage? (Useing basic classes here) A typical rogue can do alot of special things, Unlock chests, Disarm traps, stealth pull etc… A typical mage can also do alot of special things, Dispel chests/traps, elemental damage such as fire or ice which could have an impact of getting past certain obsticales..
Now Emiko, it sounds to me like you dont want classes to do special things like this, and that is my problem, I do. I want it to matter if you are a Rogue or a Mage, I want you to be needed either way, but i want it to matter.
When have you guys ever really seen “LF THIEF FOR COF P2!”? Not that often I’ll bet.
While on the one hand, this is great, because there is never a reason a group shouldnt bring a particular player, on the other hand it really makes each class kinda unimportant.
Perhaps I just want to be a special butterfly. >.< Idk. But In DOAC, one of the games this game emulates, Each class was extremely important for one or two reasons. Ie: Speed buffs, Single Pulls… etc. Not just Tank/heals/dps(which is super basic an boring) but other and far more important roles. Lots of games have had this up until WoW became the Game to be, then all other roles save the trinity were lost.
Gw2 Doesnt need roles, they need content that requires one of each class for one reason or another.. Imho.

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1355

1/12/13 9:00:48 AM#28
Originally posted by Maelzrael
Now Emiko, it sounds to me like you dont want classes to do special things like this, and that is my problem, I do. I want it to matter if you are a Rogue or a Mage, I want you to be needed either way, but i want it to matter.

But it does matter. Your team's strategy should change based on its members' classes. PUGs usually don't care about that, but that's because PUGs suck, not because of the game. Groups for more difficult content, like high-level Fractals, are usually more organised and try to benefit all the neat stuff their members can do.

In general, GW2's PvE is too easy at the moment. It needs some (probably optional, because people would scream bloody murder otherwise) harder content that's not just gimmicky Fractals. Right now, you just need full exotics and some common sense to get through most of the dungeons easily and that has to change. You shouldn't be able to GOGOGODPS through a dungeon. "Harder" doesn't mean "requires lots of people" or "requires certain abilities", however. It should still be possible to play through it with a well-built and coordinated group of random classes.

Basically, when a puzzle has only one solution, repeating it is boring. That's what's wrong with many raids. A good dungeon should have difficult encounters that players can solve however they want, instead of forcing them into doing the same thing over and over again.

Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scalpless
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Scalpless
 I don't know about control mesmer, they don't have many good CC skills.

 Um what? Mesmers are the kings of CC.

They've got iZerker and iWave, Magic Bullet, iLeap -> Swap, Counter Blade, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, Mantra of Distraction, Chaos Storm and Diversion. GS skills are great for crowd control, Magic Bullet is alright and Temporal Curtain is fantastic, but other than that... Counter Blade and Diversion are too short for PvE, iLeap misses half of the time, Chaos Storm is random and MoD is a Mantra.

Compared to the CC other classes can pull off, that's not a great list. A Warrior can get four superb CC skills from Hammer alone. Of course, Mesmer has some CC traits, too, but they don't change the big picture IMO.

Oh, there's more than that. Crippling Dissipation, for example... clones apply cripple when killed. That's an AoE cripple by the way... you can keep a group hobbling around quite nicely. Combine that with traiting to create a clone when you dodge and you have a mass degree of crippling goodness.  A well timed Feedback can work in situations. Confusion is a form of CC which can limit attacks or damage those that fail to accept those limits. Invisibilities break a target on you and allies and can keep the enemy from knowing where to go in the first place. The Desperate Decoy trait gives the enemy a false target... CC isn't simply restricting their movement but controlling where they may go as well by leading them in the wrong direction.

Mesmer focus 4 is a tremendous CC skill used tactically. You can speed up allies, cripple foes, pull foes towards you, pull them away from you... 

 

Mesmers don't lack in any way, shape or form when it comes to CC. We're masters at it. A warrior may have four great CC skills on the hammer, but if he can't get close enough to you to hit you, or if he's swinging at false targets...

I guess it depends on your definition of CC. I wouldn't classify invisibilities are CC in a traditional sense. They're more like an aggro mechanic. I was also talking about PvE dungeons, because that seems to be TC's focus.

But yes, maybe I'm underestimating mesmer's CC capabilities. I still wouldn't crown them the kings of it, because many other classes have great CC skills, too. For example, you're underestimating warriors. Many of their CC skills (Earthshaker and Hammer Blow for hammer skills) are ranged and they can immobilise crippled foes via Leg Specialist, so they're more than capable of competing with mesmers when it comes to cripples, stuns, immobilizes and KDs.

  ennymith

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/09
Posts: 116

1/13/13 7:48:45 AM#29

I feel the OPs pain on this. 

I can see GW2's everybody can do everything game design and think it was gutsy to try something different, however I think it fails because there is simply too little synergy between classes.

This is due to the fact that even though most players do PVE most of the time, the games classes are 'balanced' around PVP.

The end result is combos provide little value in PVE, sure they may shave a microsecond or two off a boss fight, or save a team mate from death once in a blue moon, but for the most part they are just ineffective eyecandy.

If a typical combo did twice the damage it does now in PVE, then you might see people really getting excited about specific classes and groupings.  Now it is just fill the team slot asap so we can get this zerg going.

GW2, after 5 years of hype, turns out to be just another Asian end game cash shop grinder. Now that sales have dropped off, F2P can't be far off.

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