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Guild Wars 2 Forum » General Discussion » ANET commentary on DR (Diminishing Returns) - updated

12 posts found
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11296

 
OP  10/04/12 3:02:25 PM#1

was posted on the forums last night

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Let-s-Start-the-Karma-DR-Dialogue/page/5#post338359

 

Guild Wars 2 is a game about freedom. We want you to be able to explore the world and engage in a huge variety of activities, focusing on whatever best suits your tastes.

Some players have run into “diminishing returns” thresholds we put into the game to provide a safety net against unanticipated economy-breaking issues. We do have these thresholds in place, but it’s not our intention that normal players should ever run into them. We’ve recently had bugs and imbalances that have caused normal players to hit thresholds, and we’ll fix those.

These systems are put in place to protect the economy from botters and exploiters. We will close exploits as quickly as we can. These thresholds help create a safety net to keep the economy safe when we aren’t there to deal with the offender. It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously. When one activity emerges that’s order of magnitudes more profitable than anything else in the game, it forces everyone to either engage in that activity or get priced out of the economy.

While we need a safety net to stop unanticipated economy-breaking exploits and botting, we have no desire to stop farming. Farmers are a part every online economy and when they are doing normal game activity they do not cause any harm. If a player finds a normal game activity fun and would like to keep doing it, that’s fine with us.

Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out. Please bear with us while we gather more data and lower the safety net until it’s only providing critical economy protection. Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.

I hope this helps to explain why a game like this needs systems such as this to protect its economy. I also hope it gives some insight into our philosophy about botters (BAD) and exploiters (BAD) vs. farmers (GOOD). Thanks for your support and we will see you in game.

Jon

  Digna

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 2006

The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.

10/04/12 3:06:27 PM#2

Well...yay...I guess.

However, if they wait a few weeks to fix the drops rates, it will still damage their economy severely.

What they should have done was ratcheted the threshold up a little bit at time. From the bottom UP, not the top down. Particularly since this system is doing jack squat against the botters.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11900

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/04/12 3:23:05 PM#3
Originally posted by Digna

Well...yay...I guess.

However, if they wait a few weeks to fix the drops rates, it will still damage their economy severely.

What they should have done was ratcheted the threshold up a little bit at time. From the bottom UP, not the top down. Particularly since this system is doing jack squat against the botters.

It's actually the opposite. You start at the higher end and work your way back, as adjustment that reduces restriction/penalty is far more palatable to the playerbase than adjustment that adds restriction/penalty.

  Digna

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 2006

The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.

10/04/12 3:30:43 PM#4
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Digna

Well...yay...I guess.

However, if they wait a few weeks to fix the drops rates, it will still damage their economy severely.

What they should have done was ratcheted the threshold up a little bit at time. From the bottom UP, not the top down. Particularly since this system is doing jack squat against the botters.

It's actually the opposite. You start at the higher end and work your way back, as adjustment that reduces restriction/penalty is far more palatable to the playerbase than adjustment that adds restriction/penalty.

They are upsetting a lot of legit players for little return, particularly in the area of botting. So now players are upset by the bots AND frustrated by the lockouts on drops. The players who will hopefully (as far as ANet is concerned) will be spending RL money on gems, to buy gold or CS items.

If they inched the thresholds up a small amount, most people (other than the spreadsheet types) would never know. Bots would still be rampant but at least you wouldn't be kicking people in the head 2Xs.

In an immediate gratification type scenario (game in this case) you aren't doing yourself a service by turning off (emotionally) your customer base.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

10/04/12 5:18:03 PM#5
Back when I was playing in early september, I would hit DR on drops within 30 minutes of play time. Diminishing Returns should not exist in PvE if they do not exist in PvP. Yes, that was a stab at Jon Peters.
  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

10/04/12 5:41:40 PM#6

This is something I dislike: 

 

"It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously." 

 

The other way to go would be to actually encourage and reward people for finding super-efficient methods to do things so that they come forward, get rewarded (maybe special achievement?) and then the method gets fixed.

 

I think a lot of people would be willing to get fame and reward in form of special achievement rather than keeping it secret due to the tempered power progression in the game.

 

I prefer the developers embracing the ingenuity of their players rather than actively working against them.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6162

10/04/12 5:49:49 PM#7
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

This is something I dislike: 

 

"It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously." 

 

The other way to go would be to actually encourage and reward people for finding super-efficient methods to do things so that they come forward, get rewarded (maybe special achievement?) and then the method gets fixed.

 

I think a lot of people would be willing to get fame and reward in form of special achievement rather than keeping it secret due to the tempered power progression in the game.

 

I prefer the developers embracing the ingenuity of their players rather than actively working against them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWHEcIbhDiw

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11296

 
OP  10/05/12 8:47:37 PM#8

posted 2 hours ago

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Let-s-Start-the-Karma-DR-Dialogue/page/10#post357474

An update! By popular demand and because it was a simple numbers change we lowered the net on any systems we felt were too harsh. These are not the last number changes, but this should help a lot and you can expect to see this change in the very next live build which should be in the next few days. We are not currently adding any new systems now or in the foreseeable future. There was an update a little while back that limited oricalcum farming via server and overflow swapping. This update was too harsh on normal players and we will try to increase the supply of these resources again soon. This requires some more number crunching and testing than the other change we made so it might take a bit longer.

Thanks,

Jon

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3731

10/05/12 9:20:57 PM#9
Originally posted by Nadia

posted 2 hours ago

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Let-s-Start-the-Karma-DR-Dialogue/page/10#post357474

An update! By popular demand and because it was a simple numbers change we lowered the net on any systems we felt were too harsh. These are not the last number changes, but this should help a lot and you can expect to see this change in the very next live build which should be in the next few days. We are not currently adding any new systems now or in the foreseeable future. There was an update a little while back that limited oricalcum farming via server and overflow swapping. This update was too harsh on normal players and we will try to increase the supply of these resources again soon. This requires some more number crunching and testing than the other change we made so it might take a bit longer.

Thanks,

Jon

Can't say I've run into DR since I move around too much--going for my 100% explore achievement--but nice response.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4611

10/05/12 9:30:56 PM#10
Originally posted by Digna
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Digna

Well...yay...I guess.

However, if they wait a few weeks to fix the drops rates, it will still damage their economy severely.

What they should have done was ratcheted the threshold up a little bit at time. From the bottom UP, not the top down. Particularly since this system is doing jack squat against the botters.

It's actually the opposite. You start at the higher end and work your way back, as adjustment that reduces restriction/penalty is far more palatable to the playerbase than adjustment that adds restriction/penalty.

They are upsetting a lot of legit players for little return, particularly in the area of botting. So now players are upset by the bots AND frustrated by the lockouts on drops. The players who will hopefully (as far as ANet is concerned) will be spending RL money on gems, to buy gold or CS items.

If they inched the thresholds up a small amount, most people (other than the spreadsheet types) would never know. Bots would still be rampant but at least you wouldn't be kicking people in the head 2Xs.

In an immediate gratification type scenario (game in this case) you aren't doing yourself a service by turning off (emotionally) your customer base.

They are upsetting people, sure, but to say they are damaging their economy is just straight BS. The economy for the game has actually been fairly good surprisingly, especially with the amount of botting you see. It still remains primarily player driven, and the prices for most items fluxtuate daily along normal trends. The only things that seem to be regularly inflating are legendaries atm.

It's been stated over a dozen times now, that the DR is only really affecting people farming in the same area for a certain amount of time. The game makes it incredibly easy to avoid doing that, and honestly.. if you are only interested in farming the same thing over & over for gold dungeons are usually a much better alternative.

They do need to work on the issue, but as with a quite a few of the issues in the game, people are grossly overreacting to what's going on. This is not unlike when people cried about dungeons being completely ruined when they nerfed storymode rewards. Yet, to this day people are still farming dungeons for very easy rewards.

  ChrisReitz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 127

10/06/12 10:02:46 AM#11

You would think they would find a way where bots cant log in. Other then hurting the rest of the people other mmorpgs found simply ways to keep them out. Like having to write a code every few mins to a hour to a certain lvl. Others you press a button on the screen. Just simply easy ways like that make a whole big deal. It might be annoying I rather be annoyed then them make drops almost impossible to get but that is just me.

 

They basically said in that arctile that they dont mind if people farm but if you farm hardcore in area in time you will probably be annoyed with this game while we nerf everything. Come on that sounds retarded. So if you wanted to farm scales in a ocean somewhere you will hardly get anything. I think this is just a way to sale there magic drops in the cash shop. I would hate to see guildwars 2 turn into a p2w mmo. Which probably more then half would leave. Espeically the hardcore gw1 players.

  ChrisReitz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 127

10/06/12 11:07:10 AM#12
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

This is something I dislike: 

 

"It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously." 

 

The other way to go would be to actually encourage and reward people for finding super-efficient methods to do things so that they come forward, get rewarded (maybe special achievement?) and then the method gets fixed.

 

I think a lot of people would be willing to get fame and reward in form of special achievement rather than keeping it secret due to the tempered power progression in the game.

 

I prefer the developers embracing the ingenuity of their players rather than actively working against them.

So you want better rewards to speed clean a dungeon... Huh intresting... yea... I see that happening... Sure.... They hate speed cleans thats why they nerfed them I dont blame them I dont like them either... not meant to be done in 5 mins and they arent going to award you for it either lol ... where do people come up with this stuff... Thats like saying I found this expolit in the game can you pay me for finding it and can I get rewards if I keep doing it over and over again... I think they need to embrace other ways then that... I bet they are thinking the samething.. But you can hold your breath and see what happens... There is always Hope I guess lol heh...