I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.

You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.

But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.

That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.

No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

Good read!

And that's just IT, even if it is sort of "repeated content" in same zone for the 5th time, it really isn't, because the "tougher" fights/bosses etc are never the "same" encounter as they would be in a pre-set raid instance :)

 

And about being in a "great" raiding guild does add somewhat to the longevity factor of raiding in generic MMO's in general, but in the long run, it's always the same encounters, that's what bores me the most with generic raiding (i've done it since forever) and im utterly excited that GW2 is taking another route entirely

Originally posted by DKLond

I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.

You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.

But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.

That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.

No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

You basically called any sandbox game un fun.

Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun

In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun

in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2. 

Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.

GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.

But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

 

People spend countless hours playing angry birds, solitaire, and other games where there is no "reason" to keep playing other than that the activity is fun for them. You are confusing your personal "basic psychology" for that of most gamers. According to this source, most MMOG players are not interested in achievement when the play an MMOG.

Most MMOG players are playing to escape reality, to enjoy a fantasy setting, and to socialize - not to "achieve" anything in a virtual realm.

Originally posted by sinloi

Originally posted by DKLond

I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.

You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.

But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.

That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.

No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

You basically called any sandbox game un fun.

Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun

In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun

in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2. 

Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.

GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.

No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.

Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.

In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.

That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.

 

 

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by sinloi

Originally posted by DKLond

I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.

You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.

But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.

That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.

No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

You basically called any sandbox game un fun.

Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun

In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun

in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2. 

Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.

GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.

No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.

Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.

In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.

That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.

 

 

and as shown in the OPs post the videos in my sig GW2 has a TON of this.. more so than almost any other MMO to date.

Originally posted by Meleagar
But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

 

People spend countless hours playing angry birds, solitaire, and other games where there is no "reason" to keep playing other than that the activity is fun for them. You are confusing your personal "basic psychology" for that of most gamers. According to this source, most MMOG players are not interested in achievement when the play an MMOG.

Most MMOG players are playing to escape reality, to enjoy a fantasy setting, and to socialize - not to "achieve" anything in a virtual realm.

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by sinloi

Originally posted by DKLond

I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.

You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.

But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.

That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.

No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.

That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?

You basically called any sandbox game un fun.

Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun

In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun

in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2. 

Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.

GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.

No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.

Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.

In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.

That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.

 

 

and as shown in the OPs post the videos in my sig GW2 has a TON of this.. more so than almost any other MMO to date.

It's a major title, certainly, but they're not literally wizards at ArenaNet - and they have the same human limitations as any large developer will have.

As such, no matter how much content they've crammed in there - the meat of it will be exhausted within 2-3 months of reaching cap for the majority of players who're actively playing it.

Originally posted by DKLond

 

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.

What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?

I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.

Should I also add that EU3 has the best longevity amongst all games I've played next go GW1. The best games are the ones without a clearly defined end-game, because then end-game is what you decide to make of it.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DKLond

 

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.

Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.

Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.

So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.

Originally posted by DKLond

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

If by level cap you mean reaching level 80 then that's wrong, getting to level 80 doesn't mean anything. The motivation is to progress your character, not vertical position but horizontal. Instead of getting better and better swords you can get a better mace, a better axe, a better rifle and a better longbow. Instead of farming the next gear set, which is progressively stronger than the previous one, you will have to get many sets instead, so you can perform in any given situation.

Originally posted by jusomdude
Skimmed over it, but I'm guessing you're an exception, not the norm of hardcore raiders.

Skimmed over your post. Couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing but im guessing you're one of the few exceptions and actually had something worthwhile to add to the thread.

Originally posted by meari

What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?

I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.

Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.

As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.

But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.

This goes for all games.

It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.

GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.

Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DKLond

 

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.

Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.

Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.

So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.

guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is

Awesome post OP! The amount of detail that ANet has put into GW2 is just astounding. Other MMO's have those NPCs that stand around and talk to each other but that's it. In this game, you never know when one of those convos will lead to an adventure. GW2 makes me want to venture off the beaten path and talk to all NPCs. Thank you for posting this. I know what I will be doing when I am not raiding keeps in WvW!

This is a subjective area.

I am a hardcore raider and I am not interested in PVE in this game at all. I go for WvWvW only.

Some HC raiders will like its PVE, some will not.

If you wanted to show that GW's PVE can be interesting for a HC raider, then you succeeded, I would say.

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by DKLond

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

If by level cap you mean reaching level 80 then that's wrong, getting to level 80 doesn't mean anything. The motivation is to progress your character, not vertical position but horizontal. Instead of getting better and better swords you can get a better mace, a better axe, a better rifle and a better longbow. Instead of farming the next gear set, which is progressively stronger than the previous one, you will have to get many sets instead, so you can perform in any given situation.

I really doubt the majority will bother maxing their gear in every combination. That's a bit OCD'ish. But even if they did, the game will neither require you to have it for any kind of content - nor will it take long without a gating mechanism - which isn't there.

So, no, I don't think I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DKLond

 

All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.

GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.

I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:

I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.

why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.

Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.

Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.

So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.

guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is

I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by meari

What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?

I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.

Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.

As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.

But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.

This goes for all games.

It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.

GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.

Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.

Win in EU3? Pray-tell! What is the "winning" condition in EU3?