Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Kuppa

Its true there are a lot of folks who just want to pve. There is nothing wrong with that. I just don't believe anyone should get their hopes up about it because logically you can come to the conclusion that there is so much you can add as pve content to an mmo. This game has no signs that it will be different, it has finite pve content and its probably not going to be abundantly more than any other themepark mmo.

That beign said the content that is their does seem like it will be a lot of fun and is well done and you don't have to pay a sub so there isn't that expectation that I need more in order to justify paying a sub.

Were this game shines for me is the pvp. Almost all the other themepark mmos have tacked on pvp, here the game was designed with pvp in mind from the ground up. This is were the longetivity of the game truly shows.

I think you and I are actually on the same page for the most part. The problem is you know as well as I do what is going to happen when those that want PvE run out of content. Let the backlash ensue...

Still, one would think it won't be that bad since the game is incredibly alt friendly and not like people are paying a monthly sub. Not sure if they'll see it that way though. I never really got those that refuse to play the PvE or PvP portions of these games anyways.

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Kuppa

Its true there are a lot of folks who just want to pve. There is nothing wrong with that. I just don't believe anyone should get their hopes up about it because logically you can come to the conclusion that there is so much you can add as pve content to an mmo. This game has no signs that it will be different, it has finite pve content and its probably not going to be abundantly more than any other themepark mmo.

That beign said the content that is their does seem like it will be a lot of fun and is well done and you don't have to pay a sub so there isn't that expectation that I need more in order to justify paying a sub.

Were this game shines for me is the pvp. Almost all the other themepark mmos have tacked on pvp, here the game was designed with pvp in mind from the ground up. This is were the longetivity of the game truly shows.

I think you and I are actually on the same page for the most part. The problem is you know as well as I do what is going to happen when those that want PvE run out of content. Let the backlash ensue...

Still, one would think it won't be that bad since the game is incredibly alt friendly and not like people are paying a monthly sub. Not sure if they'll see it that way though. I never really got those that refuse to play the PvE or PvP portions of these games anyways.

also on the same page as you and Kuppa in regards to how many will percieve the ammount of PVE content. 

The thing that people need to really take a long hard look at is, (in other titles) is wether they are measuring how much time the content takes for them to complete or are they measuring the ammount of time they spend doing unique content. In my opinion doing the same Raid 25 times might take months of gameplay but I'd rather have pve content that I could see all of it in half the time and it all be a much more unique non repatitive affair.

side note: Having leveled queensdale through twice on the same character (intentionally re-rolled) I was surprised having achieved 100% completion on both how varied some aspects of this process were.

Theres a reason endgame exists as it does today. It's because being weak simply because of your level isn't fun. GW2 doesn't change this one bit. The same reason people rush to endgame in other games is the entire basis of guild wars 2. 

So basically imagine playing World of Warcraft lvls 1-85 but never reaching the end. Never being able to say "thank god, I don't have to gather another 10 rat tails".  That is GW2.  While Dynamic Events seem fun now,  give it a month. See how much you want to log into GW2 then. That being said, it's not a terrible purchase.  Get a month worth of entertainment for 60 bucks, and can come back and do PVP when you want for no subscription fee.  That's GW2's real selling point.

This link may help those that are wondering about how "endgame" works. :)

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/28/guild-wars-2-designer-talks-post-launch-content-and-getting-the-community-to-play-together/

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Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by kikoodutroa8

No offense, DK, but I think trying to argument with the fanbois is like pissing against the wind. They'll stick to their "GW2 don't need endgame" and other mantras taught by Anet cos that's what they want to believe, as silly as it sounds.

As opposed to the mantras that say all endgame needs to follow the same principles taught by people who can't let gear progression go?  Look, even though your post is deliberately inflammatory, I can answer it by saying that most games don't even have an endgame... why is that MMOs need to follow the same principles or otherwise they're no good?

If you told me in my NES days that one day, there would be games where the only way to get stronger was to run the same level over and over again, I'd think it was the stupidest idea in the world.  But now that WoW was so successful, that seems to automatically mean the system is not only viable, but totally not a scam to keep you paying sub fees at the expense of 90% of the rest of the content.

I wasn't always a fan of GW2, but I know what makes sense and what doesn't.

 

Why is it that the WoW fanbois always think they're so much smarter than the fans of other games?  This makes me half laugh and half vomit.  (edit)  Why can't they just go to their WoW forums and type stuff and stay away from the forums of games they don't like?  WoW is a great game....so is GW2. There's no contest here. Just two games to enjoy.

 

Having said that....I presently subscribe to WoW and play it almost daily, BUT....it didn't keep me from pre-purchasing GW2 and I WILL INDEED be playing it starting August 25th (the BWEs were wonderful).  Why must we be committed ONLY TO ONE game, I mean seriously, ffs.....we don't MARRY these games, they're GAMES.  WE PLAY THEM!  I have almost always played more than one at a time.  I doubt that will stop.  I'm a gamer.....it's what I DO.

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Eir_S
I expect them to add content, but it's been my experience that it's absolutely 100% impossible to add content in time, no matter how many resources you have - or how efficient your content delivery method is. Content will ALWAYS reflect the amount of time the artist(s) have spent on it. You can't "systematize" meaningful content - not for long.
 

If they go and add ever more powerful rewards - then we're just back to the horrible tier-replacement system of WoW. That's not going to be enough.

I'm precisely NOT advocating a WoW-like system, but merely that "no power progression" isn't going to solve the problem of content exhaustion.

There are articles out there somewhere... they'll be adding new events practically from day 1 forwards, and adjusting the triggering of events as they do. The game, in all zones, will constantly be growing thanks to their DE team that's dedicated to doing exactly that. Other teams will be working on larger content such as dungeons, etc. which may appear in expansions, in DLC or simply added for free. They are all in with regards to keeping the game growing and fresh.

Yeah, I'm sure they're promising the world and more.

But, the reality is that you CAN'T automate meaningful content. Not until we have AI advanced enough to design appealing and unique content that sets itself apart.

That's why quality content will ALWAYS take a lot of time to implement, and it's exhausted almost instantly without a gating mechanism.

Since you seem to be in the habit of correcting other people, I read about 7+ pages so far of this thread, I will correct you.  You are flat out wrong.  The last BWE provided the player base with, what I felt was, an injection of dynamic/fun content at the conclusion of BWE3.  The devs took roughly 12 hours to develop a hunger-games like simulation that was dynamic, engaging, and fun.  That's why I play games, I don't know about you... I imagine they'll be able to expand upon this system in the future, since it's still in it's infancy.  There's been a lot of talk about carrots and sticks, well, that sounds like a nice carrot to me.... Who else had a blast with this event?

Originally posted by steveys19

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Eir_S
I expect them to add content, but it's been my experience that it's absolutely 100% impossible to add content in time, no matter how many resources you have - or how efficient your content delivery method is. Content will ALWAYS reflect the amount of time the artist(s) have spent on it. You can't "systematize" meaningful content - not for long.
 

If they go and add ever more powerful rewards - then we're just back to the horrible tier-replacement system of WoW. That's not going to be enough.

I'm precisely NOT advocating a WoW-like system, but merely that "no power progression" isn't going to solve the problem of content exhaustion.

There are articles out there somewhere... they'll be adding new events practically from day 1 forwards, and adjusting the triggering of events as they do. The game, in all zones, will constantly be growing thanks to their DE team that's dedicated to doing exactly that. Other teams will be working on larger content such as dungeons, etc. which may appear in expansions, in DLC or simply added for free. They are all in with regards to keeping the game growing and fresh.

Yeah, I'm sure they're promising the world and more.

But, the reality is that you CAN'T automate meaningful content. Not until we have AI advanced enough to design appealing and unique content that sets itself apart.

That's why quality content will ALWAYS take a lot of time to implement, and it's exhausted almost instantly without a gating mechanism.

Since you seem to be in the habit of correcting other people, I read about 7+ pages so far of this thread, I will correct you.  You are flat out wrong.  The last BWE provided the player base with, what I felt was, an injection of dynamic/fun content at the conclusion of BWE3.  The devs took roughly 12 hours to develop a hunger-games like simulation that was dynamic, engaging, and fun.  That's why I play games, I don't know about you... I imagine they'll be able to expand upon this system in the future, since it's still in it's infancy.  There's been a lot of talk about carrots and sticks, well, that sounds like a nice carrot to me.... Who else had a blast with this event?

 

You tell him, man, you tell him.  I missed the event, but I bet a lot of people didn't.  I was busy running around the landscape thinking about having a picnic.  lol   ;)

Originally posted by Kuppa

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

My only argument with this statement is how it applies to GW2. In the cash shop model, many (most?) game companies are making more money from their playerbase than with a sub model. So even if you individually are not paying, there are still plenty of people who are. And complain they will, whether it's warranted or not, and they'll be just as entitled to those complaints as people who pay subs in other games.

Complain about what exactly? Subbed player complain in free to play games because they invest more in their game, and are pot commited, I. E trapped through fear of losing the advantage they have from their time and money invested. take a holiday from the game then they fall behind the insidious tier gear race. In gw2, you can buy stuff, farm stuff, leave etc and you can come back when you like and not be penalised. In short you don't pay for content before you get it, so empowered not punished or degraded.

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Kuppa

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

My only argument with this statement is how it applies to GW2. In the cash shop model, many (most?) game companies are making more money from their playerbase than with a sub model. So even if you individually are not paying, there are still plenty of people who are. And complain they will, whether it's warranted or not, and they'll be just as entitled to those complaints as people who pay subs in other games.

There will always be people who complain. Regardless of how good or complete a game is.

The simple truth of this matter is that GW2 has more quantifiable content than most other MMOs on the market, and it's not even out yet. Furthermore, the way the vast majority of their content is implemented (and hearts are not the majority of the game's content by any stretch of the imagination) in a way that allows this content to progress in a different way each time. Even with a sub this game would be worth the value, but the fact that it's not makes it almost a steal. Especially given that you don't have to spend a dime after the initial purchase if you don't want to.

Now on top of this, they have already shown a robust system for adding on-the-fly significant events to the game on a whim. I mean, 12 hours to implement an event like hunger royal, or the shatterer corruption, hell that's impressive in a lot of ways. There's a lot of potential for new content in that system alone, and only a fool would think they aren't going to use it.

I mean, after looking at all that, people are still looking for things to complain about. Some people are still attached to their skinner box model, despite it failing the past decade of MMOs on a fairly consistant basis. While the argument always seems to get twisted around, it seems to always come from a standpoint of whether or not you still want a skinner-box. Not on whether or not there will be enough content.

Hell, the game already has more content than skyrim, it's repeatable content, and costs the same price.

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Kuppa

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

My only argument with this statement is how it applies to GW2. In the cash shop model, many (most?) game companies are making more money from their playerbase than with a sub model. So even if you individually are not paying, there are still plenty of people who are. And complain they will, whether it's warranted or not, and they'll be just as entitled to those complaints as people who pay subs in other games.

The difference here is you can still play the game without paying a sub. So you could say that if you are paying microtransactions its because you are liking the game. I doubt anyone who will complain about the amount of content available will also spend money on the game, that would be a contradiction.

Originally posted by steveys19

Since you seem to be in the habit of correcting other people, I read about 7+ pages so far of this thread, I will correct you.  You are flat out wrong.  The last BWE provided the player base with, what I felt was, an injection of dynamic/fun content at the conclusion of BWE3.  The devs took roughly 12 hours to develop a hunger-games like simulation that was dynamic, engaging, and fun.  That's why I play games, I don't know about you... I imagine they'll be able to expand upon this system in the future, since it's still in it's infancy.  There's been a lot of talk about carrots and sticks, well, that sounds like a nice carrot to me.... Who else had a blast with this event?

 In all honesty it seemed to me overall sentiment on that even was pretty mixed. Seemed just as many hated it as loved it. I thought it was pretty cool myself and was glad to see something different from the usual invasion or uber raid big baddie boss showdown.

However, seems there were more than a few that were pretty disappointed because their event wasn't essentially an invasion or uber raid boss. Have to wonder how open people are going to be to having some creative and imaginative events. You would think people would be tired of the same old standard fair. Then again trying to use common sense and logic in reference to the mmo community is a rather pointless affair.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by steveys19

Since you seem to be in the habit of correcting other people, I read about 7+ pages so far of this thread, I will correct you.  You are flat out wrong.  The last BWE provided the player base with, what I felt was, an injection of dynamic/fun content at the conclusion of BWE3.  The devs took roughly 12 hours to develop a hunger-games like simulation that was dynamic, engaging, and fun.  That's why I play games, I don't know about you... I imagine they'll be able to expand upon this system in the future, since it's still in it's infancy.  There's been a lot of talk about carrots and sticks, well, that sounds like a nice carrot to me.... Who else had a blast with this event?

 In all honesty it seemed to me overall sentiment on that even was pretty mixed. Seemed just as many hated it as loved it. I thought it was pretty cool myself and was glad to see something different from the usual invasion or uber raid big baddie boss showdown.

However, seems there were more than a few that were pretty disappointed because their event wasn't essentially an invasion or uber raid boss. Have to wonder how open people are going to be to having some creative and imaginative events. You would think people would be tired of the same old standard fair. Then again trying to use common sense and logic in reference to the mmo community is a rather pointless affair.

I agree, not everyone will like it.  Not everyone likes chocolate ice cream, you'll never please everyone; however, I am more impressed with the capability Anet posseses.  It's truly, what seems to be, a ground-breaking system in terms of content creation within an MMO.  The hunger-games simulation demonstrated the flexibility and rapid delivery of their system.  Those are the aspects I find most intriguing.  I enjoyed the event from a "fun" aspect as well, which is what Anet is striving for in the end.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Kuppa

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

My only argument with this statement is how it applies to GW2. In the cash shop model, many (most?) game companies are making more money from their playerbase than with a sub model. So even if you individually are not paying, there are still plenty of people who are. And complain they will, whether it's warranted or not, and they'll be just as entitled to those complaints as people who pay subs in other games.

The difference here is you can still play the game without paying a sub. So you could say that if you are paying microtransactions its because you are liking the game. I doubt anyone who will complain about the amount of content available will also spend money on the game, that would be a contradiction.

Well, if you're paying a sub you're not doing so because you hate the game... you're paying because you like the game, right? And people still complain about the games they sub to. It's not a contradiction, because obviously you care about the game enough to spend the money, and that also means caring about the stuff you want improved. Unfortunately, people choose the whining and complaining route instead of contstructive cirticism.

All I'm saying is that just because there's no sub doesn't mean that a complaint is less deserved.

 

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Kuppa

Indeed my friend, there will inevitably be a backlash. Although it will probably be a lot less deserved. When you don't pay a sub there isn't a whole lot to complaint about. Unless the game is just bad, and we know already that as a game its superb.

My only argument with this statement is how it applies to GW2. In the cash shop model, many (most?) game companies are making more money from their playerbase than with a sub model. So even if you individually are not paying, there are still plenty of people who are. And complain they will, whether it's warranted or not, and they'll be just as entitled to those complaints as people who pay subs in other games.

The difference here is you can still play the game without paying a sub. So you could say that if you are paying microtransactions its because you are liking the game. I doubt anyone who will complain about the amount of content available will also spend money on the game, that would be a contradiction.

Well, if you're paying a sub you're not doing so because you hate the game... you're paying because you like the game, right? And people still complain about the games they sub to. It's not a contradiction, because obviously you care about the game enough to spend the money, and that also means caring about the stuff you want improved. Unfortunately, people choose the whining and complaining route instead of contstructive cirticism.

All I'm saying is that just because there's no sub doesn't mean that a complaint is less deserved.

 

Remember what we are talking about here. Its complaining about longevity. Strictly were a sub comes into play. If GW2 were a bad game, complaint all you want. Complaining because it doesn't have content past 3 months, is a bit less deserved. You can do it sure, but really you paid what you pay for a console game that gives you ~10 hours of gameplay.

To the OP

I am pretty sure that there will be a decent level 80 content at launch... I wouldnt trust 100% for sure, but so far the devs proven up to be the trustworthy.

Even month ago many were sceptical even about Sylvari and Asura areas, yet they are there. All with DEs, hearts, vendors POIs and all that. 

Regarding the 'Endgame' thing...

I dreamed about an MMORPG that i can play in the same manner that i play SP RPGs. You know, without 'tiered' progression, Gearscore and obsolete low level content. So, GW2 works for me, it seems. Also it seems that works for many.

Pretty much, this 'gear progression' mentallity of players is the thing that chase me off from MMORPG genre. So i have a hope for this game and i may return to genre now. Unless Arenanet decide to cater to cries of "but we cant play with no endgame content" audience and decide to change it from the core.

Originally posted by DKLond

Originally posted by Spendrik

Originally posted by DKLond

 

Yes, I want a very different reward paradigm. But I also want the rewards.

First of all, I want the rewards to be about skill and NOTHING but skill. I also want solo players that are incredibly good at what they do to have access to the same level of rewards that super coordinated and talented groups have access to.

But I don't want a hollow tier system of ever increasing power. That's stupid.

I want 90-95% of all itemization to be about crafting - and I want crafting to be as challenging as PvE content. The only game that even attempted something like this is Vanguard (AFAIK) - where crafting required actual skill.

But I want legendary items to be extremely (EXTREMELY) rare - and I want them to be 100% unique. As in, only one of each kind in the entire playsplace. Then I want such an item to be accessible only through extreme skill on the side of the player - and something that only the very best players could ever dream of getting access to.

Which means that 90% of the population WOULD actually have the same level of items - because they can buy them from crafters, and it doesn't necessarily mean endless grinding.

But then again, I'm a sandbox player at heart - and I want all items tradable - even the most powerful ones. So, being a merchant would be just as viable and powerful as being a powerful PvP/PvE player.

The only game on the horizon that seems to touch upon this kind of thing is ArcheAge - but I don't know enough about the details.

The key, most definitely, is to give the power of creation to the players.

EvE Online is the only current example of a really successful game that's doing this kind of thing. The only problem being that the actual gameplay is stale and it feels more like an economy simulator than a game.

I want the best parts of the immersive themeparks merged with the best parts of the freeform sandboxes. For that, we need a huge budget and true creative vision.

It sounds to me like you want a lifestyle choice, not a $60 game.

You might want to check out Entropia Universe then: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/31

In the meantime, good luck on your search!

No, I want an MMO that's perpetually interesting and can last for a long time. The game you link sounds like crap. But thanks.

I suppose you want a game that doesn't last and then you'll just stop playing games entirely, right? Playing games isn't really a part of your life?

You say you think gamers want this power progression to last them a long long time?  I think you're dead wrong.  In fact I don't believe gamers in this genre want their game to last long at all.  We're not the same gamers we were 10 years ago and the genre has absorbed a lot more gamers than just us old holdouts.

Frankly I think the genre is built now to support nomadic gamers, which a huge chunk of us are now.  There's too many shiny new games coming out every few months to keep people staying in one place for too long, especially when you consider a subscription model.  

I'm sorry, but you just aren't going to get a perpetually interesting game right out the box anymore.  You'll likely have to find one you like, play thru it, move onto the next shiny game and play thru that and maybe, if the first game has patched up or expanded, jump back to that one or even another new shiny one.  It's just the way the genre is now, not because they're out of the loop, but because as gamers we're eating it up and want to keep doing this.