Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Celcius

I don't have long since I have a night class soon, but basically read into what I am saying: You say that your opinion on GW2 is the only valid opinion based upon your own view of what games should have. Regardless of number of people who say things on internet forums: it is still an opinion. You are now trying to defend TSW because I was attacking it. You don't like that and pretend to make up statistics based on poor data just to back it up. (Number of registered users on a website as a sample size, you can't be serious) GW2 has no statistical data yet to prove either way other then data like what you have posted. So really there is no win here. Its all opinion. 

The FACT is that GW2 does have an endgame. You just don't like it so you don't count it as end game. By your logic TSW has no end game as well because I do not consider what they have end game. Funny that even on the TSW forums I totally destroyed your arguments --based on opinions as facts-- (the ones you LOVE to bring up) and alot of people backed me up there as they do here. I don't have to make a signature about what I am saying since you will regret it and feel guilty about saying it in the first place. 9/5/12 if there is not a 10 man and 20 man raid you were wrong. Mark the day. I don't have to wait long though considering that you claimed Funcom will announce 750k subs in 2 days. Can't wait !;)

I never said that nor did I create this thread. 

 

I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.

pvp, and actually done well.

look at my sig. gg.

?? your sig about raiding?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by ElSandman

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

If you extend the usual consensus of sandbox to include exploration elements (as being a significant determiner) then realistically all these WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA also have this significant sandbox element.

If you take Aerowyn's definition "non dev controlled player created content" - which is where I am coming from, then none of the above are sandboxes and nor is GW2.  GW2 is far closer to WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA  than it is to EvE, SWG.

Unless there is some other major feature that changes this balance that you think I am missing??

i'd look at my post right above this.. it's pretty big grey area when you are talking sandbox

I actually did look at your other post first.

The thing is, semantics aside, this is not so much about the definition of sandbox, as it is about whether GW2 is more like other themeparks like WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA  or whether it is like generally accepted sandboxes like EvE, SWG.  Even if you don't call the groups themeparks and sandboxes, it doesn't really matter.

GW2 similarity to this group WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA is much greater than its similarity to this group EvE, SWG imo, but I am listening if you think there is some major aspect of the game that swings it toward Eve, SWG that I am missing.

To be perfectly frank though, I don't see anything remotely similar in GW2 to EVE, and I have read most of what Arenanet have published about their game and much of what posters have claimed about the game as well.

This thread continues to amaze me. The whole concept of endgame is something unique to MMORPGs. Something that does not even exist. Endgame, to most people, is just the replay value of a game. GW2 has replay value in the same way that alot of games have replay value; good gameplay. Good gameplay is something 99% of MMORPGs lack so this artificial term "end game" was created to make up for it. "End game" is the mythical land at the end of the leveling rainbow that allows you to see things that are not available until the end of that rainbow that apparently make things just that much better. 

The reality is that it does not matter wether or not the "end game" is part of GW2 as it is not even a factor. Call of Duty, League of Legends,Battlefield, Halo, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Starcraft 2,ect all have one thing in common that keeps people playing: Gameplay. If your game does not warrant replay value enjoyable enough to keep people playing based on GAMEPLAY alone, then it won't do well as a game. Once upon a time WoW had the best gameplay for an MMO and developed a huge playerbase out of this, but not anymore. WoW has taken up all the casual players and bad gamers, and given them a nice place to hang there hat. Not to say that competitive pvp in WoW has bad players, but pretty much anything can be competitive so that does not really matter. That niche is filled, people need to move onto something called "fun" in the MMO industry to keep it going. The days of item grinds are over and the poor success (or lack there-of) of every WoW-esque item grind since WoW came out has proven this point.

You don't need to make people do stuff that they do not enjoy to keep playing a game. You need to make people do stuff that they do enjoy to keep playing a game. No one enjoys running the same dungeons over and over just to be able to run the same raids over and over. If they say they do, they are probably lying to you. I am not saying that GW2 won't have people running the same dungeon over and over, because it will, but atleast there is much more content to do over and over because it is all relevant. Themeparks don't have lasting power because they don't provide players with ways to create content to do, which some people (myself included), can humbly accept because they prefer content created by designers. Thats ok, you can like that if you want. Now I do feel like themeparks can have the lasting power of a sandbox if content is provided on a quarterly basis ATLEAST, but it is still ultimately the same thing.

If you think gaining statistics or a pretty looking outfit while doing the same dungeon over and over is any different you are kidding yourself. Endgame is replay value. GW2 has plenty of that. If you like grinding for items with less compelling gameplay you can continue to resort to playing games like Rift,WoW, and TSW. There is nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by Celcius

This thread continues to amaze me. The whole concept of endgame is something unique to MMORPGs. Something that does not even exist. Endgame, to most people, is just the replay value of a game. GW2 has replay value in the same way that alot of games have replay value; good gameplay. Good gameplay is something 99% of MMORPGs lack so this artificial term "end game" was created to make up for it. "End game" is the mythical land at the end of the leveling rainbow that allows you to see things that are not available until the end of that rainbow that apparently make things just that much better. 

The reality is that it does not matter wether or not the "end game" is part of GW2 as it is not even a factor. Call of Duty, League of Legends,Battlefield, Halo, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Starcraft 2,ect all have one thing in common that keeps people playing: Gameplay. If your game does not warrant replay value enjoyable enough to keep people playing based on GAMEPLAY alone, then it won't do well as a game. Once upon a time WoW had the best gameplay for an MMO and developed a huge playerbase out of this, but not anymore. WoW has taken up all the casual players and bad gamers, and given them a nice place to hang there hat. Not to say that competitive pvp in WoW has bad players, but pretty much anything can be competitive so that does not really matter. That niche is filled, people need to move onto something called "fun" in the MMO industry to keep it going. The days of item grinds are over and the poor success (or lack there-of) of every WoW-esque item grind since WoW came out has proven this point.

You don't need to make people do stuff that they do not enjoy to keep playing a game. You need to make people do stuff that they do enjoy to keep playing a game. No one enjoys running the same dungeons over and over just to be able to run the same raids over and over. If they say they do, they are probably lying to you. I am not saying that GW2 won't have people running the same dungeon over and over, because it will, but atleast there is much more content to do over and over because it is all relevant. Themeparks don't have lasting power because they don't provide players with ways to create content to do, which some people (myself included), can humbly accept because they prefer content created by designers. Thats ok, you can like that if you want. Now I do feel like themeparks can have the lasting power of a sandbox if content is provided on a quarterly basis ATLEAST, but it is still ultimately the same thing.

If you think gaining statistics or a pretty looking outfit while doing the same dungeon over and over is any different you are kidding yourself. Endgame is replay value. GW2 has plenty of that. If you like grinding for items with less compelling gameplay you can continue to resort to playing games like Rift,WoW, and TSW. There is nothing wrong with that.

I've been posting on this thread a few times, mainly being critical of people who overly hype the endgame, but I think you have some good points and a nice way of looking at it.  I think much of what you say is true - particularly your thoughts on WoW.

Originally posted by Celcius

This thread continues to amaze me. The whole concept of endgame is something unique to MMORPGs. Something that does not even exist. Endgame, to most people, is just the replay value of a game. GW2 has replay value in the same way that alot of games have replay value; good gameplay. Good gameplay is something 99% of MMORPGs lack so this artificial term "end game" was created to make up for it. "End game" is the mythical land at the end of the leveling rainbow that allows you to see things that are not available until the end of that rainbow that apparently make things just that much better. 

The reality is that it does not matter wether or not the "end game" is part of GW2 as it is not even a factor. Call of Duty, League of Legends,Battlefield, Halo, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Starcraft 2,ect all have one thing in common that keeps people playing: Gameplay. If your game does not warrant replay value enjoyable enough to keep people playing based on GAMEPLAY alone, then it won't do well as a game. Once upon a time WoW had the best gameplay for an MMO and developed a huge playerbase out of this, but not anymore. WoW has taken up all the casual players and bad gamers, and given them a nice place to hang there hat. Not to say that competitive pvp in WoW has bad players, but pretty much anything can be competitive so that does not really matter. That niche is filled, people need to move onto something called "fun" in the MMO industry to keep it going. The days of item grinds are over and the poor success (or lack there-of) of every WoW-esque item grind since WoW came out has proven this point.

You don't need to make people do stuff that they do not enjoy to keep playing a game. You need to make people do stuff that they do enjoy to keep playing a game. No one enjoys running the same dungeons over and over just to be able to run the same raids over and over. If they say they do, they are probably lying to you. I am not saying that GW2 won't have people running the same dungeon over and over, because it will, but atleast there is much more content to do over and over because it is all relevant. Themeparks don't have lasting power because they don't provide players with ways to create content to do, which some people (myself included), can humbly accept because they prefer content created by designers. Thats ok, you can like that if you want. Now I do feel like themeparks can have the lasting power of a sandbox if content is provided on a quarterly basis ATLEAST, but it is still ultimately the same thing.

If you think gaining statistics or a pretty looking outfit while doing the same dungeon over and over is any different you are kidding yourself. Endgame is replay value. GW2 has plenty of that. If you like grinding for items with less compelling gameplay you can continue to resort to playing games like Rift,WoW, and TSW. There is nothing wrong with that.

Very nicely written.  +1

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn 

people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway.  If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.

All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate. 

Wow, the pages are flying by thanks to the end of game deniers.

 

Here's a major point that's being overlooked, however. By design and intent, GW2 is being developed such that at endgame the game doesn't dramatically change for you. If you've enjoyed the game so far all the way to 80, why should you suddenly be forced into a totally different gamestyle once you hit 80? Look at WoW again as an example. When you hit level cap you're left with only two options... PvP or raids. The raids are limited to only one option, whatever the latest is. The rest of the game is obsolete for you now. GW2 is taking a totally different pholosophy as to what happens at endgame. They don't believe the style of content that got you to 80 should suddenly change and leave you with a tiny set of options viable for your character. You can always go to lower level zones and have content that's worth doing. You can do all dungeons in the game and have a challenge, not only the latest one. You open up the whole of Orr and experience the high end equivalents of dynamic events that you've experienced the entire game. Of course there's always competitive PvP and WvW. There are legendaries to work towards, which your entire progress through the game has been helping lead you to anyhow.

 

The fault with the deniers is that they believe the game you were playing has to end at endgame and become something... else. They're wrong, and when they accept that basic fact (as it applies to GW2) then it'll be clear.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Distopia

I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.

Sounds like you kinda got it!

Another way to look at it would be in thinking of Skyrim vs. Final Fantasy. In Skyrim you can rush through the game and beat it pretty quickly, if that's your goal. Or you can go back to areas you passed by and check them out, etc. You're correct, there are a lot of options, and endgame is really what you make of it. It also doesn't magically change from what you have been doing up to that point (hence anet's claim that 'the whole game is endgame').

This is a very good point.

"If you think gaining statistics or a pretty looking outfit while doing the same dungeon over and over is any different you are kidding yourself. Endgame is replay value. GW2 has plenty of that. If you like grinding for items with less compelling gameplay you can continue to resort to playing games like Rift,WoW, and TSW. There is nothing wrong with that."

This is a very good point, and exposes a misleading concept being employed by the term "endgame".  What is actually being said when people criticize the "lack" of GW2 endgame content, is that they dislike the fact that they cannot endlessly accumulate power for their character by investing huge amounts of time in the game in scenarios that leave most other players out.  IOW, GW2 offers no substantial separation from "everyone else" for the hardcore powergamers who will streak to level 80 in very short order.  There will be no ongoing means for them to keep their characters separated by greater power from most other players, which is the gear or stat-grind carrot & whip other games offer hardcore powergamers.  Want to stay in the elite power  group? Want to stay ahead of the vast population of "scrubs"? Then you need to endlessly grind this particular content with every spare moment you can muster!

They attempt to paint their selfish desire to have an elite power club that most players are excluded from as valid concern by opining that "most" players will be bored after they consume all the GW2 content in a couple of months, and that then most players will not play unless they can also gear or stat-grind, as if most players consume content so quickly, and as if most players are motivated by the same things that motivate them.  Their argument is self-conflicting; nobody gear or stat-grinds to stay even with most of the rest of the game population;  they do it to be superior to most of the game's population. If you gear or stat-grinded just to stay on par with the majority of the game population, then there's no point in having a gear or stat-grind, because all you'd be doing is investing hundreds of hours to stay as powerful as everyone else. You might as well get rid of the grind, then, and just have a power cap like GW2, where you can stop grinding.

So, let's stop painting the complaints about the "lack of end-game" in GW2 as something other than what it is; what they are actually complaining about is that there is no way for them to feel meaningfully superior via huge time investments in a gear and/or stat-grind scenario that leaves out most other players because of the necessary time commitment.

As the author above notes, people replay games that offer zero long-term, power-accumulation-grind systems. I remember that a couple of years after WoW came out, someone did a study of the players that showed that after 2-3 years, most players did not even have a max-level character. In fact, most players had several low and mid-range characters.  The idea that most players will have consumed most of the content in GW2 after 2 months and will bored and clamoring for an end-game grind is just selfserving nonsense.

Not everyone plays MMOGs the same way hardcore powergamers play, and not everyone plays for the same reasons.  IMO, most potential players do not have the free time to consume GW2's initial content in a year, much less 2 months.  The idea that there is not enough content in GW2 to keep your average player occupied in an enjoyable way for a long, long time is like saying there's not enough alcohol in a liquor store to keep your average social drinker satisfied. There might not be enough in the mind of an alcoholic, but so what?  Most of us are not alcoholics, nor are most of us hardcore powergamers.

 

My question is: what does higher stat gear matter?

Look, let's do a comparison.

 

In WoW, you level to 85 (currently) in one of two ways... PvE or PvP.  You can even sit in a dungeon queue all day and get there.  So if you only do one of those, you miss something else.  Those areas are never going to be challenging again because you've outleveled them; the content is now unviable.  Even if you mix it up, you're going to miss something and going back will never be the same experience as if you'd been scaled down.  Now you can one shot everything.  Yay.

But you say "Yeah but the gear makes me stronger against lvl 85 creatures."  Yeah, and that's all it does.  Even though you were strong enough to beat them before you had that gear, since you now have it.  So essentially, what good is it?  All it does is make your e-penis bigger.  It's garbage.  You were strong enough to get the gear without first having gear as powerful, and you simultaneously increase the gap between what was once challenging and what you can now solo in your sleep.  You have effectively deprived yourself of content because of stats.  

The best part is that you'll keep paying a subscription to go back and try for more, even though it's proven to be largely unnecessary for success.  It just makes the next raid easier.  They want you to come back for useless crap because you're paying them money.  I love listening to people actually pretend it has a purpose other than that or that traditional endgame is the standard to be met because someone in an office said "How can we get these idiots to play the same 15% of content for years?"

In GW2, however, scaling is a pretty important feature that allows you to always A.) be challenged and B.) enjoy content that was made to be enjoyed, not passed up while you queue for instances.  You can always go back and enjoy an enormous world and you're not limited to 15% of the content once you're too powerful to enjoy anything else.  You can be more invested in a character that you can do more with than stand around in town showing off your oversize pauldrons of +10 Uselessness.

The items you work hard for don't make you stronger, but they still show off that you completed challenging content - something that should be enough reward for hardcore players - and it doesn't line the pockets of some douchebags who spend the money on character statues for their HQ lobby.

I've been raid-geared, I've had the best stuff available in WoW.  It was cool for like, 10 minutes.  Then I realized I would just be going to do the exact same thing next time.  There's nothing dymanic or interesting about it, it's just memorizing patterns and yelling at people on vent.  It's stupid if you actually think about it for 5 minutes and stop defending MMO companies' huge scam at your own expense.

The choice is yours of course.  I've just outgrown the treadmill.

Yes people there is a end game. Yes the game play changes as you lvl. At lvl 5-15. You fighting bandits and trying to save farms. At lvl 80 you fighting a gaint dragon army and will might fight the dragon. So yes as you lvl the DE gets bigger and more badass.

So yes Orr is endgame, however because of scaling. You can go back and enjoy content you found really fun on your first play through. 

Plus since they will be adding in new DE, you can go back and try the new ones. 

Do dgn you really liked again.

Do jumping puzzles

WvW, sPVP= both fun end games. 

Mini games to go back and have fun with,

There also that grind there, just for those people who love to grind. Which is for cosmetic weapons and armor. Plus titles.

 

In the end there is a endgame, but it not the only thing in the game. Like most mmos today.

Instead you can have fun lvling and when you get to Orr. It will be truly epic.

Originally posted by Eir_S

My question is: what does higher stat gear matter?

Look, let's do a comparison.

 

In WoW, you level to 85 (currently) in one of two ways... PvE or PvP.  You can even sit in a dungeon queue all day and get there.  So if you only do one of those, you miss something else.  Those areas are never going to be challenging again because you've outleveled them; the content is now unviable.  Even if you mix it up, you're going to miss something and going back will never be the same experience as if you'd been scaled down.  Now you can one shot everything.  Yay.

But you say "Yeah but the gear makes me stronger against lvl 85 creatures."  Yeah, and that's all it does.  Even though you were strong enough to beat them before you had that gear, since you now have it.  So essentially, what good is it?  All it does is make your e-penis bigger.  It's garbage.  You were strong enough to get the gear without first having gear as powerful, and you simultaneously increase the gap between what was once challenging and what you can now solo in your sleep.  You have effectively deprived yourself of content because of stats.  

The best part is that you'll keep paying a subscription to go back and try for more, even though it's proven to be largely unnecessary for success.  It just makes the next raid easier.  They want you to come back for useless crap because you're paying them money.  I love listening to people actually pretend it has a purpose other than that or that traditional endgame is the standard to be met because someone in an office said "How can we get these idiots to play the same 15% of content for years?"

In GW2, however, scaling is a pretty important feature that allows you to always A.) be challenged and B.) enjoy content that was made to be enjoyed, not passed up while you queue for instances.  You can always go back and enjoy an enormous world and you're not limited to 15% of the content once you're too powerful to enjoy anything else.  You can be more invested in a character that you can do more with than stand around in town showing off your oversize pauldrons of +10 Uselessness.

The items you work hard for don't make you stronger, but they still show off that you completed challenging content - something that should be enough reward for hardcore players - and it doesn't line the pockets of some douchebags who spend the money on character statues for their HQ lobby.

I've been raid-geared, I've had the best stuff available in WoW.  It was cool for like, 10 minutes.  Then I realized I would just be going to do the exact same thing next time.  There's nothing dymanic or interesting about it, it's just memorizing patterns and yelling at people on vent.  It's stupid if you actually think about it for 5 minutes and stop defending MMO companies' huge scam at your own expense.

The choice is yours of course.  I've just outgrown the treadmill.

All the OP'd gear does is trick players into thinking they have more skilll than they actually have.  "Hey look at me!  I just beat your ass in PvP!  That's because I rock and you don't!  Nevermind that my armor and weapons are much better than yours, I beat you with my mad skillz!"

 

In reality, I think the players that resist the concept of cosmetic-only upgrades are afraid that their "mad skillz" will prove to be what they really are:  a myth.

 

People don't like to be shown that the lies they tell themselves are just lies.

Originally posted by evolver1972

All the OP'd gear does is trick players into thinking they have more skilll than they actually have.  "Hey look at me!  I just beat your ass in PvP!  That's because I rock and you don't!  Nevermind that my armor and weapons are much better than yours, I beat you with my mad skillz!"

 

In reality, I think the players that resist the concept of cosmetic-only upgrades are afraid that their "mad skillz" will prove to be what they really are:  a myth.

 

People don't like to be shown that the lies they tell themselves are just lies.

Excellent point, I completely forgot about the stupidity that is WoW PvP or even Aion etc.  

The fact that you can basically be a total dud in your BG group and still earn honor really goes to show you that not everyone who beats you in PvP is necessarily better, they just put in more hours or were carried to the point where their gear actually makes them better.

It's a sad state of affairs, but I have to give credit to those few who earn it and are a useful addition to their BG groups, I've seen some stellar PvP'ers in WoW even when they didn't have max res. gear (ie: not me, I was one of those duds I mentioned).

Originally posted by Meleagar

"If you think gaining statistics or a pretty looking outfit while doing the same dungeon over and over is any different you are kidding yourself. Endgame is replay value. GW2 has plenty of that. If you like grinding for items with less compelling gameplay you can continue to resort to playing games like Rift,WoW, and TSW. There is nothing wrong with that."

This is a very good point, and exposes a misleading concept being employed by the term "endgame".  What is actually being said when people criticize the "lack" of GW2 endgame content, is that they dislike the fact that they cannot endlessly accumulate power for their character by investing huge amounts of time in the game in scenarios that leave most other players out.  IOW, GW2 offers no substantial separation from "everyone else" for the hardcore powergamers who will streak to level 80 in very short order.  There will be no ongoing means for them to keep their characters separated by greater power from most other players, which is the gear or stat-grind carrot & whip other games offer hardcore powergamers.  Want to stay in the elite power  group? Want to stay ahead of the vast population of "scrubs"? Then you need to endlessly grind this particular content with every spare moment you can muster!

They attempt to paint their selfish desire to have an elite power club that most players are excluded from as valid concern by opining that "most" players will be bored after they consume all the GW2 content in a couple of months, and that then most players will not play unless they can also gear or stat-grind, as if most players consume content so quickly, and as if most players are motivated by the same things that motivate them.  Their argument is self-conflicting; nobody gear or stat-grinds to stay even with most of the rest of the game population;  they do it to be superior to most of the game's population. If you gear or stat-grinded just to stay on par with the majority of the game population, then there's no point in having a gear or stat-grind, because all you'd be doing is investing hundreds of hours to stay as powerful as everyone else. You might as well get rid of the grind, then, and just have a power cap like GW2, where you can stop grinding.

So, let's stop painting the complaints about the "lack of end-game" in GW2 as something other than what it is; what they are actually complaining about is that there is no way for them to feel meaningfully superior via huge time investments in a gear and/or stat-grind scenario that leaves out most other players because of the necessary time commitment.

As the author above notes, people replay games that offer zero long-term, power-accumulation-grind systems. I remember that a couple of years after WoW came out, someone did a study of the players that showed that after 2-3 years, most players did not even have a max-level character. In fact, most players had several low and mid-range characters.  The idea that most players will have consumed most of the content in GW2 after 2 months and will bored and clamoring for an end-game grind is just selfserving nonsense.

Not everyone plays MMOGs the same way hardcore powergamers play, and not everyone plays for the same reasons.  IMO, most potential players do not have the free time to consume GW2's initial content in a year, much less 2 months.  The idea that there is not enough content in GW2 to keep your average player occupied in an enjoyable way for a long, long time is like saying there's not enough alcohol in a liquor store to keep your average social drinker satisfied. There might not be enough in the mind of an alcoholic, but so what?  Most of us are not alcoholics, nor are most of us hardcore powergamers.

 

I agreed very much with the poster who you quoted, but this post you just made is rediculous.  What a crying rant!   You sound like that poor little kid who got left out of the raids in other games so now you will finally get your revenge against those bully raiders.   What a load of crap.

As a long time player of mmos, and an avid raider in many games, I can say that there are other reasons people like to increase their character stats and fight for the most powerful gear they can, which don't involve being selfish or being part of the "elite power club" - as you describe it.  It's called  "motivation", and the quest for gear has been a motivating game mechanic through decades of RPGs, right back to the days of pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons.  

I've met countless people who like to raid over the years, been in more than 14 different guilds, and the majority of people who I have chosen to raid with through those guilds are not in it for e-peen.   In fact most of the hardcore raiders I know log on to the game only minutes before the raid, and off again once it's over.  For many people, raiding is a very intimate social occasion, where they can all come together in a cooperative game to defeat fun and challenging PvE bosses and get small rewards for their effort which they feel are meaningful.

I am very much a fan of GW2 and I believe that  those same people I describe above will have the potential to have a lot of fun in it as well.  I think above all else, it has social systems and a social mentality built into it, which is better for the genre.   However the concern that many people have is that the reward systems -- not the amount of content  -- will not be enough.  Gear treadmills, contrary to how you describe them, are at their core an effective reward mechanism.  However, I hope that I and others can adapt and find some pleasure in seeking out rare skins and collectible.   I have my doubts though, as do many.  Time will tell

What a crying rant!   You sound like that poor little kid who got left out of the raids in other games so now you will finally get your revenge against those bully raiders.   What a load of crap.

Attacking me personally doesn't aid in any conversation.  What I am is someone that finally has a game designed not around end-game power grinders, but around "everyone else" - including players like myself. There are countless MMOGs available for end-game power-grinders.  Why come into GW2 forums to bemoan what is a fundamental, core design philosophy?

As a long time player of mmos, and an avid raider in many games, I can say that there are other reasons people like to increase their character stats and fight for the most powerful gear they can, which don't involve being selfish or being part of the "elite power club" - as you describe it.  It's called  "motivation", and the quest for gear has been a motivating game mechanic through decades of RPGs, right back to the days of pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons.  

As I said, not everyone plays for those motivations.  However, if you wish to argue that most hardcore powergamers are not interested in being more poweful or better than 95% of the rest of the population, your argument might be better served by not referring to a member of that other 95% as a "poor little kid who got left out of the raids", and characterizing my opinion as a "crying rant". That kind of belittling condescension is, IMO, typical of people who come in here with an attitude that completely dismisses the vast numbers of potential casual players that progress far more slowly, and are rarely involved in any such end-game power-grinding due to time constraints. 

Note how they are dismissed as unimportant by those claiming that the long-term sustainability of GW2 is threatened unless end-game power-grinders are catered to.  Do you really think there are not enough other players to sustain GW2 and make it a great success? Do you really not know that there are many, many more players that simply do not consume all of  a game's content in 2 months?

I've met countless people who like to raid over the years, been in more than 14 different guilds, and the majority of people who I have chosen to raid with through those guilds are not in it for e-peen.   In fact most of the hardcore raiders I know log on to the game only minutes before the raid, and off again once it's over.  For many people, raiding is a very intimate social occasion, where they can all come together in a cooperative game to defeat fun and challenging PvE bosses and get small rewards for their effort which they feel are meaningful.

If they only log in and log out to raid, they hardly consider their reward "meaningful", since they're not spending any other time in-game enjoying their rewards. More likely, those that just log in and out to raid are only doing so for the social contact and enjoyment and out of a sense of responsibiity to their guild and friends, and are otherwise sick of the game and power-grinding in general. If they weren't, they'd play more of the game than just to log in and raid and then log out.

Let me ask you, who do you think is leaving SWToR?  Those that haven't seen most of the content yet, or those that have burned through it all?  More than likely, those who are progressing much slower, the casuals, if you will, are going to stay for much longer than the hardcore powergamers because it takes them much longer to consume content. They probably won't even finish the original content before more is added.

Now, when those more casual players get to the point in the game where they must either roll an alt or become hardcore powergamers to power-grind end-game content, what do you think they'll do?  They don't have the time to become hardcore powergamers, so they must either roll an alt, find something else to do, or find a game where when they are not forced to end-game powergrind to become as powerful a character as there can be in the game.  GW2 is just such a game, but now here come you and others arguing against that and, in effect, trying to make it so such players are - once again - left behind with no way to advance because they simply cannot commit such grind time to any game.

However the concern that many people have is that the reward systems -- not the amount of content  -- will not be enough.  Gear treadmills, contrary to how you describe them, are at their core an effective reward mechanism.  However, I hope that I and others can adapt and find some pleasure in seeking out rare skins and collectible.   I have my doubts though, as do many.  Time will tell

Look at what you said above: "In fact most of the hardcore raiders I know log on to the game only minutes before the raid, and off again once it's over."   What will GW2 not be able to hold onto - people that only log in to raid, and then log out because they have no other reason to even log-in? People who are utterly uninterested in 99% of the game content, so much so that they cannot even be bothered to log-in and enjoy their raid loot other than to do more raiding?  Why should GW2 even try to hold on to such people, who obviously are not going to be buying cosmetic items (in any significant amount) from the cash shop where ANET is going to be making the bulk of their money, because they don't spend any "cosmetic" time in-game. They just log in for raids and then log out, as you said.

The fact is, you cannot cater to both styles of play.  You must either cater to end-game powergrinders, or you must cater to those who do not or will not end-game power-grind.  Catering to one necessarily disenfranchises the other to some extent; it's unavoidable.   If you offer increased character power for time spent in end-game grinding, you are going to disenfranchise those that cannot put that kind of time and organizational commitment into the game because they will always be seen as 2nd rate or "scrubs". Since they are your primary source of income, I suggest it's not too bright to have an end-game power-grind design primarily supported by a cosmetic-item cash shop.

 

I wish someone would (not me) put together a side to side comparison of GW2's endgame vs WoW.   I don't think there is as much parity as some people are making it out to be. 

 

Just a quick search netted:

91 daily quests for a Horde member including PvP, etc.

3 level 85 5 man dungeons

6 level 85 10/25 man dungeons

Of course PvP, both BG and arena, is it's own seperate progression.

Originally posted by Aelious
Just a quick search netted:

91 daily quests for a Horde member including PvP, etc. vs 1000's of DE's

3 level 85 5 man dungeons There will be eight dungeons at release. During the personal storyline they can be found about every ten levels starting at level 30, and there are three dungeons at level 80.^[1]

Each dungeon has two modes: a story mode which focuses on the story of the Destiny's Edge group, and explorable mode, a more difficult mode which requires more co-ordination to play through.  The actions of the team influence what happens during a dungeon play-through. Dungeons are also influenced by dynamic events, creating unique experiences even if choosing the same path.

6 level 85 10/25 man dungeons which requires you to be in a raiding guild

Of course PvP, both BG and arena, is it's own seperate progression.  Ditto, but WvWvW trumps WoW.

See what I mean?  GW2 wins.

I think so many of us have it ingrained in our minds that endgame should be like WoW. Get to 80 asap so you can finally start having fun. GW 2 is so different that I believe the term "endgame" shouldn't really apply to this game. There are so many chains that can happen in the dynamic event system that "endgame" content is at the beginning, middle, and "end" of the game. There really is no end as of yet. We're just seeing the beginning of the story. We've only seen a minor dragon fight (correct me if I'm wrong.) I'm looking for the link but one of the devs talked about how they've designed DE's to be built upon and tie in with new DE's. I'm sure the link is from a big Q&A from the ANet blog somewhere. Anywho...I personally believe we should stop comparing GW 2 "endgame" to games that rely on endgame content such as WoW. This MMO is a hybrid that hasn't been done before. Some of the elements are the same as other games but they've refined them and you can't really judge a game of this magnitude too soon. It'll take time after release before we really start seeing it shine from all the polish and additions it'll recieve. Endgame content is cool but I think that term doesn't really apply to GW 2. Always remember that we're seeing the first chapter of the dragons waking up around the world of GW 2. We've got a lot of content ahead and plans that haven't even been revealed. I'm not worried about "endgame" personally. I played WoW for 5 years and I loved the game but I'm tired of it and I've been ready for a new MMO that really grabs my attention for a while. After two beta weekends and a couple stress tests, I can say that this'll be my MMO home for the next few years Lord willing. I'd wait till the game comes out before we start jumping to conclusions about "endgame" or the lack thereof. Endgame in GW 2 to me is just what I'd call open ended. You do whatever you want. There will be new zones, DE's, and I'm sure some new classes as time goes on. I look forward to seein' you all in game. :)

Agreed. There's no question that for my playstyle GW2 beats WoW in every category.

I think when modes are considered there are 32 dungeons at "endgame" lol. Since there is no gear grind people will still like WoW-ish games but hopefully they will enjoy some GW2 while they wait for raid night to come lol.

I found the link I was talking about. For those of you wondering about "endgame" content, check this out. Hope this helps! :)

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/28/guild-wars-2-designer-talks-post-launch-content-and-getting-the-community-to-play-together/