Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by evilastro

 I guess GW2 shines because the XP from trash is so low that avoiding them through stealth or taking a sneaky path is a perfectly acceptable strategy. Its more about completing the objectives than killing x amount of mobs.

As long as it is possible to avoid them, I'm okay with their presence. Just so that I can avoid fighting them.

You can avoid any fights you want (except in dungeons, I'm not sure they are avoidable in any way)

I just don't think it's the right game for you based on what you are saying. I'm not sure where you should look. Perhaps Demon's Souls or the like. But really, GW2 DOES have trash mobs all over the place. They can be fought differently and they tend to be harder than in other MMOs, but you WILL be fighting a lot of the same mobs.

I've played many MMO's, so I know exactly what you're referring to OP, and I can say, at least in my opinion, GW2 doesn't really have "trash mobs" so to speak. You have to stay actively engaged in the action or you WILL get face planted by an ordinary mob. I'm mainly an avid PvPer in every game i've played, and in most of those games i've detested PvE for its blandness and lack of challenge. In both the BWE's I found myself just strolling around Queensdale hunting mobs at times. It's a refreshing change for me.

Originally posted by Grahor

The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B.

 

Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts.

 

For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development.

 

This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor.

 

So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?

So basically you want every mob to be a boss pinata?

Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by meari

I'm not sure what you are asking for OP, I also notice you dodged the question when asked to give example of games you consider to have no trash mobs.

I usually play strategy games like Civilization and Panzer General, Paradox's strategies and Total War strategies. They tend to have different gameplay; in Total War strategies you can use "autoresolve feature" to skip battles with an equivalent of "trash mobs". RPGs have their share of trash mobs, but the amount varies: from DA2 where trash mobs were as abundant as trash mobs in mmorpgs to Shadow of the Colossus where you don't have any mobs but bosses at all. Fallout: New Vegas is somewhere in between; plenty of trash mobs, but you can skip nearly all of them through stealth, etc.

The most recent game I've played was Binary Domain; on the first glance, it's full of trash mobs (robots, limited number of models, same behavior between them), but the situations in which it put you were different every time; this time it was a wide open room with cover on one side; a series of tight corridors with robots pouring from all sides; time-limited run through throngs of mobs; snipers above; etc. All the encounters hand-crafted by developers, they always put something new there. Lots of boss fights. Lots of side-challenges like "not just kill a bunch of robots, but do it with headshots and melee". All in all, the game doesn't turn itself into a routine; of course, it's short. How can it be something else when all the fights are hand-crafted? And I see no point in ever repeating it. But overall, that's how would I prefer the games to be.

Developers cannot custom craft every single encounter, which means they will inevitably repeat. Even if you randomize the AI you're only expanding the possilibities, and once you learn to recognize the AI pattern it just become Mob A-AI Type X and everything after that becomes "trash mob".

And at that moment this type of mob have to disappear from the game forever. Yeah, sure, it'll make it shorter... But I don't see it as a downside.

Even changing up the mob group composition doesn't help solve the problem, as you can only mix them in so many ways.

But let's try to mix them at least in SOME ways! :)

To fit your criteria there will be essentially no encounters left outside of boss fights.

I'm not an absolutist; some amount of trash mobs is inevitable, especially considering that it's subjective at which point mobs turn from "new challenge" to "old trash mobs" for each player. But I would prefer that amount to be smaller than larger.

 

Then you failed to realize even Civ, even EU3, has "trash mobs".

Oh what's this, Bismark just sent another swordman against my fortress hill. Trash, I've killed the same swordman 6 times over, why can't Bismark present a different challenge.

Steamrolling up to Bohemia and her HRE allies. Oh look it's Mainz, I've already killed OPM Augsburg so it's the same deal. 12k infantry stack and instant assault, dead in 1 month. Trash mob.

Your definition of "trash mob" and what you seek to gain out of MMORPG is just miguided.

Originally posted by meari

Then you failed to realize even Civ, even EU3, has "trash mobs".

Oh what's this, Bismark just sent another swordman against my fortress hill. Trash, I've killed the same swordman 6 times over, why can't Bismark present a different challenge.

Steamrolling up to Bohemia and her HRE allies. Oh look it's Mainz, I've already killed OPM Augsburg so it's the same deal. 12k infantry stack and instant assault, dead in 1 month. Trash mob.

Your definition of "trash mob" and what you seek to gain out of MMORPG is just miguided. 

Huh? It wasn't that swordsman that was "the challenge", it was the place where to build a hill fort. Once the fort is built, I don't have to waste my time on "trash mobs", and that sworsman dying is not a waste of my time. Like running through the place with trash mob in GW2 without engaging it will not be a waste of my time.

As for EU3, crushing minors and capturing their keeps was never a challenge; a challenge is to do it while keeping your economy healthy and keeping your BadBoy low. So, no, it's not a trash mob at all. :)

Originally posted by waynejr2

So basically you want every mob to be a boss pinata?

In a perfect world, yes. I want every mob to be a boss. As for "pinata" part, aren't that the definition of all mobs and bosses alike?

Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by meari

Then you failed to realize even Civ, even EU3, has "trash mobs".

Oh what's this, Bismark just sent another swordman against my fortress hill. Trash, I've killed the same swordman 6 times over, why can't Bismark present a different challenge.

Steamrolling up to Bohemia and her HRE allies. Oh look it's Mainz, I've already killed OPM Augsburg so it's the same deal. 12k infantry stack and instant assault, dead in 1 month. Trash mob.

Your definition of "trash mob" and what you seek to gain out of MMORPG is just miguided. 

Huh? It wasn't that swordsman that was "the challenge", it was the place where to build a hill fort. Once the fort is built, I don't have to waste my time on "trash mobs", and that sworsman dying is not a waste of my time. Like running through the place with trash mob in GW2 without engaging it will not be a waste of my time.

 

As for EU3, crushing minors and capturing their keeps was never a challenge; a challenge is to do it while keeping your economy healthy and keeping your BadBoy low. So, no, it's not a trash mob at all. :)

Killing that swordman does waste my time. I have to tell my crossbows to attack those pesky things that serve nothing but detract me from organising my workers to improve my cities.

Your definition is anything that repeat itself is a trash mob. The fact that they are obstacles part of a larger goal doesn't come into it.

Alternativly, if you can see that the "challenge" in EU3 is keeping BB low and an army without printing the economy to death, and not how many stack you obliterate and OPM you annex, you should be able to see that the "challenge" in GW2 and many other RPG and such are completing the event/quest (clearing out the pirate hide out..etc), and not defeating individual mobs.

Originally posted by Chrisbox

There really is no such thing as a "trash mob" in GW2.  Normal every day quest monsters, even provide challenge, and if you dont pay attention you will die.  Thats something I really look forward to, tired of roflstomping every mob in zones, and in dungeons. 

Haha, of course not...

I think it's really sad that Grahor asked a legitimate question about trash mobs, provided examples from other games plus a personal opinion, only to have a bunch of people start arguing with him and/or insinuate that he should not play GW2 because 'he's clearly a powergamer' and 'MMO's aren't for him.'

That last point really annoys me, especially since I've been of the receiving end of it myself.  Who are you to decide whether or not someone else should play a game?

And why is it so difficult to just respectfully answer the question?

Originally posted by Grahor

A bit of further clarification: "trash mobs" doesn't mean "weak mobs", it means "mobs that don't represent any _new_ challenge". Once you learn how to kill an Ettin, what tactics you need to use, Etiins become trash mobs, no matter if they still represent the challenge: it's the same challenge, nothing new, you know how to kill them, you just go through routine. Action-filled, dodging, dangerous routine, but routine nevertheless.

Therefore, every raid boss, dungeon boss and NPC in the game is a trash mob. If you definition of a "trash mob" is an "encounter you figure out how to win and can beat it", then every thing in the game, and every game is a trash mob.

You are setting up every game for failure with that mentality, so good luck finding a game that suits what you want. Apparently, the only mobs you don't consider trash are unbeatable with your definition. If you are looking for AI that adapts and changes on the fly, that probably won't be happening for a while. Even raid/dungeon bosses are pretty scripted and you know what to expect after fighting them 1 or 2 times.

I am not talking about just GW2, I am talking about every game that has ever been created in the history of time.

Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by waynejr2

So basically you want every mob to be a boss pinata?

In a perfect world, yes. I want every mob to be a boss. As for "pinata" part, aren't that the definition of all mobs and bosses alike?

Okay so you've made it clear that you believe "trash mobs" dont mean easy mobs.  Rather, just the repetition in tactics used to kill the things.  So instead you want boss mobs. 

So you want EVERY single mob in the world to be different from each other?  Each mob to be unique from the other?  Is that what you are wanting?  Or am I getting it wrong? 

Do you realize thats just nearly impossible?   Do you have any idea how long that would take?  Like....20 years of development.  Longer even.  Thats not realistic.  Even if mobs were "boss" mobs and took a long time to kill the next one would just be using the same tactics to do so.  Making them just really hard to kill trash mobs.  Because you cant have the variation I think you are asking for here. 

Im probably just misunderstanding you.  Maybe. 

EDIT:  The only thing I can think to do is have mobs spawn with random abilities applied to them.  They've done it before with weapons in games.  Where the weapons are randomly generated.  I guess they could do that with mobs too.  Have every mob be randomly and slightly different from one another.  That might actually be doable I guess when I think about it more. 

However I have never heard of a game like that.  Ever.  Not that its a bad idea really........

Originally posted by Wolfynsong

I think it's really sad that Grahor asked a legitimate question about trash mobs, provided examples from other games plus a personal opinion, only to have a bunch of people start arguing with him and/or insinuate that he should not play GW2 because 'he's clearly a powergamer' and 'MMO's aren't for him.'

That last point really annoys me, especially since I've been of the receiving end of it myself.  Who are you to decide whether or not someone else should play a game?

And why is it so difficult to just respectfully answer the question?

While I'll agree that some of the responses here have not been awesome..well...

His original post kinda came across as though he was saying "I want to eat a hot dog, but I want it to be nothing like a hot dog, and totlaly like a hamburger."

I get what he's saying..he wants every pull to be original, interesting, and challenging. And he doesn't want the old EQ tedium of "pull one mob, kill it, repeat" He doesn't want to waste time grinding mobs that aren't really interesting to fight. I'm cool with that. But to some extent, lesser creatures are going to always be present in these kinds of games. One other poster mentioned Shadow of the Colossus. MMOs will probably never have gameplay like that. It's not conducive to an online, large-scale multiplayer environment.

Originally posted by Grahor

Ouch. :( Oh, well, PvP is the most important part for me anyway. :) Let's hope it's not as dim as you present. The part in red is the one which really gets under my skin in mmorpgs. Let's hope I can escape those.:)

Yes, you can completely avoid any DE you want as they occur organically in the world and aren't part of a quest hub that just must be completed fully or almost fully in order to advance to the next area (SWTOR anyone?). You can instead go to a different area and experience whatever DE's are going on there.

However, in defense of the DE with lots of trash mobs I have to say that many mobs have different affixes and eve the "trash" can be fairly varied by spawning groups of mobs with different compositions (i.e. 1 blademaster + 2 archers vs 3 archers vs 2 blademasters + enemy siege weapon).

While I can appreciate the idea of having every fight be unique, new, and challenging... its a bit ridiculous.

1: Dev time woud go through the roof and cost of production of the game would too

2: The game is limited in mechanics. There are only so many "new" ways to have a fight go within the game rules.

3: Too few mobs. It would feel empty to me if a creature was only in the game for a specific reason.

I'll add in what others are saying. There are no trash mobs in the sense of it being easy like SWTOR. I died plenty of times on what I thought were easy creatures... to me that is exciting that I actually have to play the game that I am playing.

Thank you everyone, I've received enough replies with useful information in them (from different points of view) so that I could build my own preliminary conclusions on them. Thank you for this.

I have also received a plethora of replies which instructed me that my use of words are wrong, my definitions are wrong, my personal preferences in entertainment are wrong and my desires to see my preferences implemented in that particular genre are wrong. Those provided me with plenty of entertainment and for them I'm also grateful. Thank you all. :)

Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by evilastro

 I guess GW2 shines because the XP from trash is so low that avoiding them through stealth or taking a sneaky path is a perfectly acceptable strategy. Its more about completing the objectives than killing x amount of mobs.

As long as it is possible to avoid them, I'm okay with their presence. Just so that I can avoid fighting them.

At least in the areas I explored during beta, it was relatively easy to sneak past trash mobs.  It was certainly better than Rift where I felt as if I spent more time hacking through trash mobs than I did completing quests.

Originally posted by Grahor

The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B.

 

Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts.

 

For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development.

 

This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor.

 

So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?

LOL 

Sorry but with a simple search and you could have found that one of the big complants of the First dungeon was that, the so called, trash mobs were harder than the bosses.  

Originally posted by LaZyBuTCrAzY

Originally posted by Wolfynsong

I think it's really sad that Grahor asked a legitimate question about trash mobs, provided examples from other games plus a personal opinion, only to have a bunch of people start arguing with him and/or insinuate that he should not play GW2 because 'he's clearly a powergamer' and 'MMO's aren't for him.'

That last point really annoys me, especially since I've been of the receiving end of it myself.  Who are you to decide whether or not someone else should play a game?

And why is it so difficult to just respectfully answer the question?

Anybody who wants to find a challenge in MMORPG PvE makes me LOL. If you want to be challenged you play competitive PvP or play games like Demon Soul online. And if you aren't good enough to do either, you don't come here complaining about bad game designing. Also, his question has been answered numerous times already, the fact MMORPGs don't work this way and never will.

Competitive PvP is not hard - who is mashing the keys faster. Sorry - your answer totally makes you as out of touch with what an MMO is..

Many people find competitive PvP just boring......

Originally posted by LaZyBuTCrAzY

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by LaZyBuTCrAzY

Originally posted by Wolfynsong

I think it's really sad that Grahor asked a legitimate question about trash mobs, provided examples from other games plus a personal opinion, only to have a bunch of people start arguing with him and/or insinuate that he should not play GW2 because 'he's clearly a powergamer' and 'MMO's aren't for him.'

That last point really annoys me, especially since I've been of the receiving end of it myself.  Who are you to decide whether or not someone else should play a game?

And why is it so difficult to just respectfully answer the question?

Anybody who wants to find a challenge in MMORPG PvE makes me LOL. If you want to be challenged you play competitive PvP or play games like Demon Soul online. And if you aren't good enough to do either, you don't come here complaining about bad game designing. Also, his question has been answered numerous times already, the fact MMORPGs don't work this way and never will.

Competitive PvP is not hard - who is mashing the keys faster. Sorry - your answer totally makes you as out of touch with what an MMO is..

Many people find competitive PvP just boring......

Find it boring? or aren't good enuf to be part of it. The fact that you made this statement "Competitive PvP is not hard - who is mashing the keys faster." shows your ignorance. Maybe thats why Valve pays $1million dollars to players yearly, to see who smashs their keyboard faster, am i rite?

The OP wanted a challenging game, and I recommended competitive PvP games, because thats the only way a real gamer can enjoy games. I never said competitive MMO PvP, as they are near non existent and too few, WoW being one. And, since you think its so easy maybe you could name a real esport that you played competitively?

Your response screams 'doesn't play well with others'. Seriously, you competative PvP people make me laugh so hard. And WoW......HAHAHAHAHAHA, the person who hits thier script key first wins, thats the fact of it. Dont even try and shove this stuff over on us, we have been there too.