I don't know exactly how the classes will work when the actual game is released but I liked that in gw1 you had to use a lot of strategy as far as composition goes when making a group. I hope there is still some sort of tactics to use but I don't know how important it will be when every class can do everything, its cool in a way but it might take away from the strategy of the game that made it really interestining/fun to me.

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I don't know exactly how the classes will work when the actual game is released but I liked that in gw1 you had to use a lot of strategy as far as composition goes when making a group. I hope there is still some sort of tactics to use but I don't know how important it will be when every class can do everything, its cool in a way but it might take away from the strategy of the game that made it really interestining/fun to me.

Yeah, GW2 is not going to be GW plus. Its a whole new type of game. Still, if you want a GW basis to go off of, think of it like this. Your fav role to play was Spike healing?, well GW2 will be more like a HoH IWAY build, you know, before the nerf. No set healers, just skills and tactics that help you survive.

Originally posted by RathanX26

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I don't know exactly how the classes will work when the actual game is released but I liked that in gw1 you had to use a lot of strategy as far as composition goes when making a group. I hope there is still some sort of tactics to use but I don't know how important it will be when every class can do everything, its cool in a way but it might take away from the strategy of the game that made it really interestining/fun to me.

Yeah, GW2 is not going to be GW plus. Its a whole new type of game. Still, if you want a GW basis to go off of, think of it like this. Your fav role to play was Spike healing?, well GW2 will be more like a HoH IWAY build, you know, before the nerf. No set healers, just skills and tactics that help you survive.

Makes sense to me. GW1 was my favorite pvp game because it was completely skill based/strategy based. Everyone had same gear and you just had to win by being better/have a better strategy. I hope they keep it that way, but I do understand that its probably boring to have set roles and people would rather just heal themselves/be able to do anything.

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

Water ele was the class I was looking at the most, to me it seems like having a couple people going a little heavier support spells but still having some damage spells might be pretty nice for gvg.  I mean you can have 10 skills total so having maybe 3 water ele skills/3 spiking skills/couple decent utility support spells and everyone already gets a self heal could help the group out a lot in theory, but again i don't know for sure whether it would be useful in actual combat.

I think what you are actually thinking of is Staff Elementalist - you can change your attunement on the fly with a cool down so you can switch between Water, Fire, Air, and Earth as needed.  Just saying that you might find switching attunements adds a number of support features.

They said they shun the holy trinity... which kind of sucks. Sure, I can see not needing a 'tank' or anything, but not letting people heal is a bit... eh... people enjoy the roll of healing. Sure, you don't NEED to have it as a 'healbot' deal from other games, but you shouldn't denounce a group of players who enjoy the idea of bringing aid to others in a game. There is always ways to give healers a roll while also making them do damage and other tasks that go beyond spamming the heal button. I'm sure players would enjoy healing even if it wasn't a 'fail saver' if it meant they can suppliment a group a bit from heals that do hold some meaning (even if they might have some lengthy cool down or break between use) and they got supportive methods to aid allies when damage might not be taken to make up for not being that dedicated damage they otherwise would miss.

No healers. But there are certainly other ways to provide support. And don't think of dedicated roles in this game, everything is fluid in that what you do at one time will be completely different in the next encounter.

Originally posted by Purutzil

There is always ways to give healers a roll while also making them do damage and other tasks that go beyond spamming the heal button. I'm sure players would enjoy healing even if it wasn't a 'fail saver' if it meant they can suppliment a group a bit from heals that do hold some meaning (even if they might have some lengthy cool down or break between use) and they got supportive methods to aid allies when damage might not be taken to make up for not being that dedicated damage they otherwise would miss.

When talking about abolishing the trinity ANet said nearly the same thing you are saying. They are not denouncing a group of players, they are giving them another way to support their team. Many people who like to play healers do so because they like to think they are contributing to the group and allowing the group to function better than the sum of it's parts. Support does the same thing now, just in another way than whack-a-mole. Anet said they designed a way to help the team but not be watching heatlth bars the entire time.

That is their goal in theory, now in practice if it plays out to be just as fun or more fun we will see. But to say they just turned their backs on a group of players is just incorrect.

Originally posted by Purutzil

They said they shun the holy trinity... which kind of sucks. Sure, I can see not needing a 'tank' or anything, but not letting people heal is a bit... eh... people enjoy the roll of healing. Sure, you don't NEED to have it as a 'healbot' deal from other games, but you shouldn't denounce a group of players who enjoy the idea of bringing aid to others in a game. There is always ways to give healers a roll while also making them do damage and other tasks that go beyond spamming the heal button. I'm sure players would enjoy healing even if it wasn't a 'fail saver' if it meant they can suppliment a group a bit from heals that do hold some meaning (even if they might have some lengthy cool down or break between use) and they got supportive methods to aid allies when damage might not be taken to make up for not being that dedicated damage they otherwise would miss.

If you read the wealth of information out there, there are builds that can major in support.  Which includes healing areas and removing buffs. 

The way gs2 works is, you will always major in Support, Damage or control, but you will always at least  minor in one of the other 2.  

I find it neccessary to explain that MMOs are a derivative of table top rpgs. There is no such thing as "healer" or "tank" in dungeons and dragons (4th edtition aside).  YOu may be a priest, but maybe 2 rounds is dedicated to healing whjile the other is dedicated to intangibles .  

Originally posted by Purutzil

They said they shun the holy trinity... which kind of sucks. Sure, I can see not needing a 'tank' or anything, but not letting people heal is a bit... eh... people enjoy the roll of healing. Sure, you don't NEED to have it as a 'healbot' deal from other games, but you shouldn't denounce a group of players who enjoy the idea of bringing aid to others in a game. There is always ways to give healers a roll while also making them do damage and other tasks that go beyond spamming the heal button. I'm sure players would enjoy healing even if it wasn't a 'fail saver' if it meant they can suppliment a group a bit from heals that do hold some meaning (even if they might have some lengthy cool down or break between use) and they got supportive methods to aid allies when damage might not be taken to make up for not being that dedicated damage they otherwise would miss.

Why does it suck? I think it is nice - for a change you dont have to say, 'HEALER LFG'. I guess you never played GW1 at the beginning. In the forst month, there was a healer protest at one particular mission because it was so hard and people didn't understand. So it will be nice not having to go through and say, OH we need 2 healers, 2 DPS, 2 mage, 1-2 warriors, etc.

It is nice to break the 'traditions' of MMO's.

I suggest playing around with the character builders out there. 

I built three types of GW2 characters, all support.  1 specialized in reviving foes. He could instantly revive 2 foes every couple of minutes and provide healing and boosts to them on revivie.  2. specialized in area healing using staff and sceptor he was able to raise regeneration and boost effectiveness of party heals. 3 specialized in removing buffs, could take all buffs away and then had abilities to loose 2 buffs every 10 seconds and turn them into boons for the party. 

The key to this game is, people will have to :gasp: learn how to play it.  This is not going to be the game where you pick up the keyboard and things are going to be like the ohter games.  I used to think this was cool, i can play wow, or i can play runes of magic and the buttons are all the same. And i realized how sad this is.  I've been tricked into playing the same game with different graphical changes and different expansion packs. But am i playing a completely different game? 

Originally posted by Purutzil

They said they shun the holy trinity... which kind of sucks. Sure, I can see not needing a 'tank' or anything, but not letting people heal is a bit... eh... people enjoy the roll of healing. Sure, you don't NEED to have it as a 'healbot' deal from other games, but you shouldn't denounce a group of players who enjoy the idea of bringing aid to others in a game. There is always ways to give healers a roll while also making them do damage and other tasks that go beyond spamming the heal button. I'm sure players would enjoy healing even if it wasn't a 'fail saver' if it meant they can suppliment a group a bit from heals that do hold some meaning (even if they might have some lengthy cool down or break between use) and they got supportive methods to aid allies when damage might not be taken to make up for not being that dedicated damage they otherwise would miss.

I do think that certain classes have the ability to provide more "party" support than others. For example, guardians have a number of damage reducing/healing abilities that benefit the entire party, and you can further buff these abilities by putting points into specific traits.  Engineers can use their "med kit" to drop bandages, antidotes and the like. But I guess for people looking for a dedicated role this game might not work for them.

Well they did say that the Guardian will be the class that monk players in GW should look at for that support niche. Granted, it's not the healing part of the monk but the Prot part of the monk (which is more interesting anyway). Those that are used to a healer playstyle need to look at other ways of providing support in GW2. If you just can't over being just a healer then I don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I have read that all classes are able to heal themselves and all of that stuff, but does that mean that all groups wont have a designated healer?

 

In gw1 I really liked healing for GVG and HoH with my spiker group guild, and looking at the skills on characters and stuff it seems like you could build just a pure healer/support class.

 

I wonder how good that would be to have 4 people go complete damage and one person go complete heal/support. it seems like that would be pretty good to not have to worry about healing yourself and having one person to heal in the pvp group.

 

Anyone who has done more research than me have any insight on this? Or is it all unknown at this time?

95% of healing will be done by yourself. That doesnt mean that you wont want to arrange for someone in the group to adopt more of a support role - crowd control, snares, light ae heals.

If you think someone else will save you from heavy incoming damage you will be in for a shock. Even specced for 'complete support' you will still account for a very very very very minor proportion of healing. Its everyones own job to keep themselves alive by paying attention and using defensive skills / dodging wisely.

I don't mind not playing a dedicated full healer, but I do like playing support roles more when I do pvp and stuff. But what I don't understand from reading this thread is why do certain classes have heal spells if they are pretty much worthless? Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I have read that all classes are able to heal themselves and all of that stuff, but does that mean that all groups wont have a designated healer?

 

In gw1 I really liked healing for GVG and HoH with my spiker group guild, and looking at the skills on characters and stuff it seems like you could build just a pure healer/support class.

 

I wonder how good that would be to have 4 people go complete damage and one person go complete heal/support. it seems like that would be pretty good to not have to worry about healing yourself and having one person to heal in the pvp group.

 

Anyone who has done more research than me have any insight on this? Or is it all unknown at this time?

The tactics of GW2 won't allow for this in Dungeons and dynamic events.  This is because there is no "agro" to keep a creature off of a healer.  If a creature is coming for you, they are there is little a person to do but divert them using some type of control. Still, with only ah andful of heals, and them on atimer, you'll be ineffective to your party.  

What you can do is create a character that adds to their heal or improves party heals.  You still need to figure out your strategy when it comes to supporting and damaging.  Every class has a way to improve or heal other classes.  It's just area effected instead of direct.  

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I don't mind not playing a dedicated full healer, but I do like playing support roles more when I do pvp and stuff. But what I don't understand from reading this thread is why do certain classes have heal spells if they are pretty much worthless? Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Healing is combined into support. It's a fraction of support.  If you're going to major in support you'll need to also either provide boons, revive or remove conditions or some type of combination of the 4.  I guarantee you, a support heavy character in GW will  provide you the same if not more of  a satisfying feeling.  Because you will not just be watching the tanks bar and casting a heal , youll be making sure that your party is alive and positioning yourself so you can use those timely heal spells at the right time.  

Remember, everyone has a heal, but their on timer. So a heal bubble bursting in the right spot can be life or death. A nice boost to HP after a revive can mean victory or death,. 

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I don't mind not playing a dedicated full healer, but I do like playing support roles more when I do pvp and stuff. But what I don't understand from reading this thread is why do certain classes have heal spells if they are pretty much worthless? Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Every single class can access AE heals. The heal it gives is generally in the form of a boon called 'regeneration' which only stacks in duration, not power.

Some other classes like Elementalists in the water attunement do splash heals, that are very minor.

The point is that you would really have to go out of your way to make a class entirely specced into support, in fact the weapon skills alone mean that you will always have damage dealing abilities, and every class is forced to choose 1 of 3 self heals that will do the vast majority of healing for themselves.

Minor healing is still healing, it all adds up, but they dont want it to get to the point where you need someone else to heal you.

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I have read that all classes are able to heal themselves and all of that stuff, but does that mean that all groups wont have a designated healer?

 

In gw1 I really liked healing for GVG and HoH with my spiker group guild, and looking at the skills on characters and stuff it seems like you could build just a pure healer/support class.

 

I wonder how good that would be to have 4 people go complete damage and one person go complete heal/support. it seems like that would be pretty good to not have to worry about healing yourself and having one person to heal in the pvp group.

 

Anyone who has done more research than me have any insight on this? Or is it all unknown at this time?

Waht do you mean by "designated healer"?.  Elementalists can put out an AOE heal and  Ithink a smaller area heal.

But I don't think they can do it often enough to be a designated healer.

Healing exists.  And I am certain that a smart combination of a Guardian forc field and some people throwing out some heals can cause a recovery from the brink of defeat.

But that is not the same as "designated healer".  There are a number of combinations involving multiple people could be consider "disaster recovery" that will involve various support action including healing.

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I don't mind not playing a dedicated full healer, but I do like playing support roles more when I do pvp and stuff. But what I don't understand from reading this thread is why do certain classes have heal spells if they are pretty much worthless? Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Every single class can access AE heals. The heal it gives is generally in the form of a boon called 'regeneration' which only stacks in duration, not power.

Some other classes like Elementalists in the water attunement do splash heals, that are very minor.

The point is that you would really have to go out of your way to make a class entirely specced into support, in fact the weapon skills alone mean that you will always have damage dealing abilities, and every class is forced to choose 1 of 3 self heals that will do the vast majority of healing for themselves.

Minor healing is still healing, it all adds up, but they dont want it to get to the point where you need someone else to heal you.

 

 

Heals are not worthless.  They are however not sufficient alone to make you unkillable.

There are a few general premises:

     1) Everyone is expected to and able to contribute to the offense in significant ways.  You always have a weapon set.

     2) Everyone has some ability to take care of themselves.

     3) Most single support spells are not radically high power. 

     4) Overlapping support is extremely powerful. 

So what does this mean?  One dude throwing out some AoE heals is not gonna turn the tide of battle.  One skilled player does not just die boom headshot or get "out lasted" by a healer spec.  Any character could fight forever against someone with crap for damage. 

But 2 elementalists throwing heals and some stuns working in tight conjunction with two guardians throwing out heals and some forcefields blocking attack will be incredily hard to kill.  They will also do good damage and should do good damage but not be the absolute best at damage since they are devoting significant time to support.  However they could always switch on the fly to damage instead of support.

Alone support not so amazing.  Overlapping support and cooridnating your efforts will probably be pretty strong.  Some of this is accomplished via cooldowns, some by effects and some by a combination of the two.  You may need a forcefield to save + that regen heal to save someone on the brink of death so that you give the heal enough time to work.  Similarly you may want multiple guardian with shields due to CDs to defend against multiple spikes or feints.

So would it be safe to say that gw2 pvp is more focused on individual skill rather than team strategy? Not saying that team strategy isn't important but from looking at the skills it seems like its more about how you can play your character than how a group of characters can play together?