Originally posted by mThree3

I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.

 

 

PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.

Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.

 

Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.

 

MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.

Which is along the lines of what everyone has been saying.

In fact post #8 said all of this and linked info to source it too.

:-)

I am all for a game that allows PVPers to start progressing and doing PVP right away, and still lets them PVE and progress through that at their own pace when they want to, and the reverse is ALSO true.

Sounds like they really thought this out and have a great plan.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by mThree3

I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.

 

 

PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.

Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.

 

Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.

 

MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.

Which is along the lines of what everyone has been saying.

In fact post #8 said all of this and linked info to source it too.

:-)

I am all for a game that allows PVPers to start progressing and doing PVP right away, and still lets them PVE and progress through that at their own pace when they want to, and the reverse is ALSO true.

Sounds like they really thought this out and have a great plan.

I went through the posts and you are right a couple hit the nail right on the head. But people are still not getting it so let's just keep repeating ourselves till we turn blue in the faces and they realize their mistakes hah.

GW2 promising to do the right things. All we have to do is see if they deliver.

Originally posted by sadeyx

I guess youve never played guildwars before LOL

GW had 20 levels, GW2 has 80 not the same thing.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Laughing-man

When you zone into the Mists you are level 80.

However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists.  Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.

 

If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)

So it would appear like (80) 15    as it does in this video.

 

So...just like SWTOR...

Pretty much, yes.

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain no skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by sadeyx

I guess youve never played guildwars before LOL

GW had 20 levels, GW2 has 80 not the same thing.

Guild wars let you make a level 20 just to start PVPing, so you could PVP right away.

GW 2 has a similar system, where you are buffed to "end gameish" stats and lets you PVP right away if you desire, letting you earn PVP gear and status.  THEN letting you go PVE if you so desire and play through the PVE leveling game at any time back and forth.

Its a natrual progression of the system.  An Evolution if you will.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Laughing-man

When you zone into the Mists you are level 80.

However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists.  Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.

 

If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)

So it would appear like (80) 15    as it does in this video.

 

So...just like SWTOR...

Pretty much, yes.

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

Originally posted by nomatics856

I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

MMORPGs can be 'about' whatever the designer wants them to be about. Not every game has to be built to your preconceptions.

As for the levelling up for WvWvW... it's called removing the barriers to play, and, frankly, it's the way more themeparks should have been thought about at the design stage.

Not every MMO has to be the same. They don't all have to clones of what you already know. Accept that and we all will be happier.

Originally posted by Creslin321

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

Interesting I had not heard this about BG's but then I've mostly only been paying attention to Mists PVP the WvWvW is whats really caught my attention so far.  Thanks for the info on BG's That system actually sounds really well designed and thought out.

Edit:  I really hated how higher levels had a clear advantage over you in SWTOR even if it wasn't suposed to be that great of an advantage it was pretty significant.

Originally posted by Ankur

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

You can't enter the instanced PvP (BG's) with a PvE toon.

I don't think you understand...

As soon as you join the BG game, you have a completely maxed out toon to use for the duration of that game.

Gear, stats, level, skill unlocks, everything.

Same as GW1 don't see why they wouldn't have it in 2.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Laughing-man

When you zone into the Mists you are level 80.

However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists.  Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.

 

If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)

So it would appear like (80) 15    as it does in this video.

 

So...just like SWTOR...

Pretty much, yes.

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

 I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.

Originally posted by nomatics856

I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

Now hold that thought, and read your own post once again.

Guild Wars 2 has skill based PvP (being 50% of the game, so to say) and progression based PvE (the other 50%), therefore your negative point was...?

But I know what you mean, of course. However, progression based PvP will *never* work. It hever has, and never will. There will always be unfair difference in level/gear in such a system, leading to crazy imbalance and a flood of negativity from players. It leads to camping, ganking, griefing, lolwtfpawning and all the worst behaviour you can imagine.

GW2 is finally doing what MMO's should have done from  the very start. And there is progressing in it too, but its the progression of your own skill, not some pointless invisible floating point values in the game code.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Laughing-man

When you zone into the Mists you are level 80.

However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists.  Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.

 

If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)

So it would appear like (80) 15    as it does in this video.

 

So...just like SWTOR...

Pretty much, yes.

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

 I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.

If it works exactly like GW then PVE character only get boost to lvl 80 but they will be lacking in skills and armor compared to lvl 80 PVP characters. In that case everyone has to make a seperate PVP character for BG.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Laughing-man

When you zone into the Mists you are level 80.

However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists.  Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.

 

If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)

So it would appear like (80) 15    as it does in this video.

 

So...just like SWTOR...

Pretty much, yes.

 The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...

WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear.  Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents.  That was the problem with SWTOR.  If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

 I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.

If it works exactly like GW then PVE character only get boost to lvl 80 but they will be lacking in skills and armor compared to lvl 80 PVP characters. In that case everyone has to make a seperate PVP character for BG.

 Do you have a source for this?  Because that's not my understanding, and I've been following this game pretty closely.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Ankur

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

You can't enter the instanced PvP (BG's) with a PvE toon.

I don't think you understand...

As soon as you join the BG game, you have a completely maxed out toon to use for the duration of that game.

Gear, stats, level, skill unlocks, everything.

Since we are basing it on GW and how it worked in it... then yes you can enter BG with your PVE toon unless Anet changed it for GW2, got any links for this information?

Originally posted by Creslin321

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

 I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.

If it works exactly like GW then PVE character only get boost to lvl 80 but they will be lacking in skills and armor compared to lvl 80 PVP characters. In that case everyone has to make a seperate PVP character for BG.

 Do you have a source for this?  Because that's not my understanding, and I've been following this game pretty closely.

I said 'IF' it works like GW, i would also like to see if Anet changed this for GW2.

Originally posted by gladosrev2

Originally posted by nomatics856

I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

Now hold that thought, and read your own post once again.

Guild Wars 2 has skill based PvP (being 50% of the game, so to say) and progression based PvE (the other 50%), therefore your negative point was...?

But I know what you mean, of course. However, progression based PvP will *never* work. It hever has, and never will. There will always be unfair difference in level/gear in such a system, leading to crazy imbalance and a flood of negativity from players. It leads to camping, ganking, griefing, lolwtfpawning and all the worst behaviour you can imagine.

GW2 is finally doing what MMO's should have done from  the very start. And there is progressing in it too, but its the progression of your own skill, not some pointless invisible floating point values in the game code.

 The only way progression based PvP works is when each player literally starts at the bottom at the beginning of every match and then typically reaches close to "max-level" by the end of the match, only to start anew the next match.

This progression-based PvP mechanic has obviously worked VERY well and it generally considered fair.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Which is why I've been saying GW2 isn't really a "proper" MMORPG in the traditional sense because they've tried very hard to reduce/minimize the progression aspect of it and flatten it out more into a FPS model of leveling the playing field for everyone.

But no matter what you call it, there is obviously a huge playerbase who want this sort of title, so it will do great.

 

 

It's this kind of rhetoric that makes folk angry.  Last night, I equate it to slavery.  Slaves of a genere that should not have a "way the game must be made". 

Even in FPS's Call of Duty plays different than half life which plays differently than RAGe. The mechanics are different, progression is different, the only similarities at some point u fire a gun. 

But somehow, the mmorpg genre has created a template a game must be to be called an MMO.  

Guild wars 2 is a "proper" mmo. What is a proper MMO

Massive (lots of people) check

Multiplayer (lots of people playing together) check

Online (internet connections linking these players) check

Role-Playing Game (interactive story, create a character and explore his role in the universe) check 

The design of a game does not define the genre of a game.  

BTW to the original poster. Yeah, this is a trolling thread but oh well. 

Everything I've read said states that you will recieve level 80 gear of average level.  The game is NOT gear based. Has it been so long that we've lived in slavery that we don't even understand how an RPG can be an RPG without gear.  

I'd suggest going back and playing some of the old school jrpgs.  NOngear based, based on ho how you built your charcters. 

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Creslin321

One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.

 I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.

If it works exactly like GW then PVE character only get boost to lvl 80 but they will be lacking in skills and armor compared to lvl 80 PVP characters. In that case everyone has to make a seperate PVP character for BG.

 Do you have a source for this?  Because that's not my understanding, and I've been following this game pretty closely.

I said 'IF' it works like GW, i would also like to see if Anet changed this for GW2.

 Ahh I see, I'm like 99% certain it works the way I described.  I don't have a source to prove it, but I remember hearing about the system in a video or something way back when.

EDIT:  Here's a source, this is from the wiki:

A character used to enter structured PvP will retain race and profession. The character will be given a fixed maximum level, and all skills and items will be available without the need to unlock them first. Player statistics will be tracked and used to generate a player ranking.^[1]

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Kyleran

Which is why I've been saying GW2 isn't really a "proper" MMORPG in the traditional sense because they've tried very hard to reduce/minimize the progression aspect of it and flatten it out more into a FPS model of leveling the playing field for everyone.

But no matter what you call it, there is obviously a huge playerbase who want this sort of title, so it will do great.

 

 

It's this kind of rhetoric that makes folk angry.  Last night, I equate it to slavery.  Slaves of a genere that should not have a "way the game must be made". 

Even in FPS's Call of Duty plays different than half life which plays differently than RAGe. The mechanics are different, progression is different, the only similarities at some point u fire a gun. 

But somehow, the mmorpg genre has created a template a game must be to be called an MMO.  

Guild wars 2 is a "proper" mmo. What is a proper MMO

Massive (lots of people) check

Multiplayer (lots of people playing together) check

Online (internet connections linking these players) check

Role-Playing Game (interactive story, create a character and explore his role in the universe) check 

The design of a game does not define the genre of a game.  

 

 Yep...the only real requirements for an MMORPG are:

1.  Lots of people.

2.  Persistent World.

3.  Be an RPG.

The PvE and WvW of GW2 obviously fits those requirements.  The BG PvP...not so much, but you can't just look at one part of the game and say that it's not an MMORPG.  The BG PvP is kind of like a "side activity" in the overall game.

GW2 is definitely an MMORPG.