This post should pop up on everyone's first visit to any GW2 related site. 

Great job!

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Originally posted by Meowhead

It's the simple things in life that can be most important.
The things =I'm= excited about are the shifts in design philosophy.  Things like 'Oh hey, no mob tagging/killstealing', and 'No fighting over resource nodes' or 'hey, no end game grind for next tier equipment' or 'hey, how about you just buy the game from us, instead of renting it?'  These aren't things that somebody promises and you worry '... but what if they can't deliver it because difficult?'.  It's something that they promise, and then people get to decide if they personally want that feature or not, because it's trivial to put in.

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BINGO! Clear your cards.

You have exactly nailed it as to why I've become a GW2 fan, and why I am so down on other recent MMOs. One thing that you didn't really touch on was community building...which is also a central pillar of their philosophy and is very integral to the design (you did cover a lot of the systems in your various points). The idea of really facilitating and encouraging a long-term, quality community surrounding your game is one that's been lost for a long time in this genre... and it's all about game design choices.

Great original post...I'll be linking to it often. :)

Wow. How long did it take you to put this together? I love it. This should be required reading for everyone who wants to play a MMORPG, ever, ever. It really accentuates how their company mentality is so very different, and why that is so very important.

One thing, though, sorry.

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1. You can deliver an AAA MMO with a B2P model.

How are they planning on doing this?
This one is pretty obvious. They're going to spend a lot of money and time developing an MMO, then price it B2P style.

Why is this innovative?
Because it's never been done before. (That was easy!)

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This is the wrong way to look at this. The right was is that this has been done nearly all the time for every game, and indeed, in nearly every business model for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

You buy something (with gold, barter, paper money, whatever) and it is yours. Now that it is yours, you own it, and you get to keep it unless you sell it to someone else. You own it.

I bought a Zelda game, and I own it. I haven't picked it up in years. I could pick it up and play it right now, because I own it, and I own the console to play it on. That is how buying things has always worked, and how it should always work. I bought a book, and even though it has been sitting on the bookshelf in my flat for a long time without being read, I could read it again whenever I like because I own it. I don't have to go to a website and pay for continued access to that book.

And that is how it should work. And that is how buying and selling things of all types has always worked.

Anet's business model is that you buy content, not access to the game. Other games have it in reverse, or they expect you to buy both.

Once I buy the original box, I can play that all I want, for good. But I won't have access to their new content they have for sale unless I buy that. So there is a continuing cost for playing, if you want to play everything. The difference is that you are buying content that you will get to keep for good, and not renting access.

The people who say the fee is needed, it obviously isn't. I bought Starcraft. It took a lot of money to make, but I own it, and I can play it, and play it online, whenever I like. Box sales pay for development and publishing and distribution costs. It is designed that way. (Note that the people who made Battle.net are the people who started Arena.net.)

This isn't new. It is old; it is just moral and right.

I very nice read Meowhead and it should be stickied. I see a lot of comments about GW2 fans being blind and claiming this is the second coming, yet when I read through old threads gathering information I don't see those kind of posts. Maybe every once in a while from someone baiting but not often. Maybe your deep thoughts coupled with others lack of information is how some come to the conclusion that GW2 fans are claiming the second coming?

For me I have discussed the design philosophy for hours with the wife and friends and we are all excited for what Anet is at least trying to accomplish with the game other than the gameplay aspects. Heres to hoping there is a shift in the trend that are MMO's today.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

Wow. How long did it take you to put this together? I love it. This should be required reading for everyone who wants to play a MMORPG, ever, ever. It really accentuates how their company mentality is so very different, and why that is so very important.

One thing, though, sorry.

 

---

1. You can deliver an AAA MMO with a B2P model.

 

How are they planning on doing this?
This one is pretty obvious. They're going to spend a lot of money and time developing an MMO, then price it B2P style.

Why is this innovative?
Because it's never been done before. (That was easy!)

---

 

This is the wrong way to look at this. The right was is that this has been done nearly all the time for every game, and indeed, in nearly every business model for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

You buy something (with gold, barter, paper money, whatever) and it is yours. Now that it is yours, you own it, and you get to keep it unless you sell it to someone else. You own it.

I bought a Zelda game, and I own it. I haven't picked it up in years. I could pick it up and play it right now, because I own it, and I own the console to play it on. That is how buying things has always worked, and how it should always work. I bought a book, and even though it has been sitting on the bookshelf in my flat for a long time without being read, I could read it again whenever I like because I own it. I don't have to go to a website and pay for continued access to that book.

And that is how it should work. And that is how buying and selling things of all types has always worked.

Anet's business model is that you buy content, not access to the game. Other games have it in reverse, or they expect you to buy both.

Once I buy the original box, I can play that all I want, for good. But I won't have access to their new content they have for sale unless I buy that. So there is a continuing cost for playing, if you want to play everything. The difference is that you are buying content that you will get to keep for good, and not renting access.

The people who say the fee is needed, it obviously isn't. I bought Starcraft. It took a lot of money to make, but I own it, and I can play it, and play it online, whenever I like. Box sales pay for development and publishing and distribution costs. It is designed that way. (Note that the people who made Battle.net are the people who started Arena.net.)

This isn't new. It is old; it is just moral and right.

You're comparing a console game to an MMO. There is not and never has been an MMO that is launching with a B2P model. It has not been done. You have a point, they're simply doing what gaming companies should have done from the beginning, but that doesn't making Meow's original point any less true.

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer
You're comparing a console game to an MMO. There is not and never has been an MMO that is launching with a B2P model. It has not been done. You have a point, they're simply doing what gaming companies should have done from the beginning, but that doesn't making Meow's original point any less true.

---

Of course not. He's exactly right, except in that it is not really innovation. It is looking at what they think players really want, and doing what is best to build a community. Almost all of their innovations are based on those simple principles.

My point is that all the MMO companies, and a disturbingly large number of MMO players, are looking at this issue in entirely the wrong way. I see people all the time complaining that Anet couldn't possibly make a decent AAA game because they are not charging a fee, which is simply nonsense because game companies have been doing it for a very long time.

This isn't a new model, it is an old model. One genre hasn't been doing it, and now everyone is saying it is a new and exciting and innovative and risky thing, and it is not. It is a tried and true business model used since the dawn of civilization.

But that is not to say it isn't a wonderful thing to do, or that it is completely unheard of in the MMO world to date. And that's a shame.


In any case, I feel like this should be stickied. Anet is working under a philosophy that I feel many players simply don't understand. And once you understand the mentality of the company, and what their ultimate goals are, all these innovations and design decisions makes perfect sense, and just feel right. That's the beauty of Arenanet. They are starting with a philosophy for what a MMORPG should be, and all of their choices are intended to further that philosphy. They are on a mission to revolutionise the genre, to revitalize the genre. I couldn't be happier about it.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

 

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer
You're comparing a console game to an MMO. There is not and never has been an MMO that is launching with a B2P model. It has not been done. You have a point, they're simply doing what gaming companies should have done from the beginning, but that doesn't making Meow's original point any less true.

---

Of course not. He's exactly right, except in that it is not really innovation.

....

This isn't a new model, it is an old model. One genre hasn't been doing it, and now everyone is saying it is a new and exciting and innovative and risky thing, and it is not. It is a tried and true business model used since the dawn of civilization.

....

Innovation

1: the introduction of something new

So it is or is not new for triple A mmos?

Its grey but still "innovation" as the word is used in the context of almost every game today.

Great OP!  And you actually taught me something.  I didn't even know you could do custom soundtracks in GW2!  I'm really excited about this.

I remember there was an old mod for WoW that would let you set up custom MP3's to play when certain events happened.  It was awesome!  I had FFVI combat music for fighting...the Ultima series sea shanty for the ship...many other things.  I can't wait to start messing with my soundtrack again :).

Originally posted by Myria

This ludicrous religion that's grown up around Anet and GW2 is getting downright scary.

Wait until someone has actually played the game and has clue one how it will really be -- rather than what Devs say, which has been shown over and over and over to be 99.99% BS? Whatever for? We have nerdvana right here, and here's why -- even though I've never played the game and have no real idea what will turn out to be "innovation" (whatever idiotic definition one cares to apply) and what will turn out to be just another babble mouthed piece of marketing hype.

Ah, but they're Anet, the most holy of holy! Believe, or be cast out for your sins!

Tao my arse.

When you start describing a video game you've never even played -- or, for that matter, any video game at all, but especially one you've never even played -- in religious terms, it's seriously time to re-evaluate your life.

QFT I mean honestly...To expand on something some of you are saying in, 'defense', of this rambling fanboism. You've only played this in a controlled enviroment at a games convention.  Guess what? I have too, it seemed really rather great.  But and here's the thing, that doesn't mean it'll be the greatest thing ever in MMO gaming, which some of you seem to blindly assume.

Hears an idea, Arenanet doesn't need, 'supporters', people who will blindly support it till the bitter end, like a football team.  Get realistic, treat it like any other form of entertainment.  Support it after it comes out and maybe you like it, not before based on well phrased marketing drivel and some controlled play sessions/sexy videos.  

Originally posted by Omnifish

Originally posted by Myria

This ludicrous religion that's grown up around Anet and GW2 is getting downright scary.

Wait until someone has actually played the game and has clue one how it will really be -- rather than what Devs say, which has been shown over and over and over to be 99.99% BS? Whatever for? We have nerdvana right here, and here's why -- even though I've never played the game and have no real idea what will turn out to be "innovation" (whatever idiotic definition one cares to apply) and what will turn out to be just another babble mouthed piece of marketing hype.

Ah, but they're Anet, the most holy of holy! Believe, or be cast out for your sins!

Tao my arse.

When you start describing a video game you've never even played -- or, for that matter, any video game at all, but especially one you've never even played -- in religious terms, it's seriously time to re-evaluate your life.

QFT I mean honestly...To expand on something some of you are saying in, 'defense', of this rambling fanboism. You've only played this in a controlled enviroment at a games convention.  Guess what? I have too, it seemed really rather great.  But and here's the thing, that doesn't mean it'll be the greatest thing ever in MMO gaming, which some of you seem to blindly assume.

 

Hears an idea, Arenanet doesn't need, 'supporters', people who will blindly support it till the bitter end, like a football team.  Get realistic, treat it like any other form of entertainment.  Support it after it comes out and maybe you like it, not before based on well phrased marketing drivel and some controlled play sessions/sexy videos.  

The thing your missing here is that this thread is focused mostly on the general MMO game design philosophies of the developers at ArenaNet-utilizing features and examples shown in demos of GW2 as direct evidence of those philosophies.  The lack of GW2's release has absolutely no bearing in this discussion. 

An excellent original post and good discussion! 

Quibbles over "innovation", "iteration" and all the other buzz words, are just part of the discussion.  We all have different definitions and shadings.  Don't get to wrapped up with the details of the word choices, that way lies madness!

I think this should be stickied, but have it follow the Mass Info and th Everything We Know threads.  That way people who have learned about the features of the game can get a sense of the design philosophy behind them.

Originally posted by cali59

I think this should be stickied, but have it follow the Mass Info and th Everything We Know threads.  That way people who have learned about the features of the game can get a sense of the design philosophy behind them.

I second this proposal.

Originally posted by Serelisk

Originally posted by cali59

I think this should be stickied, but have it follow the Mass Info and th Everything We Know threads.  That way people who have learned about the features of the game can get a sense of the design philosophy behind them.

I second this proposal.

I third this proposal.

So, I read your whole wall. I love Guild Wars that much.

and I was reading it, liked your arguments...

Then I saw number 9. I had no idea they were doing this.

I need a change of pants.

Originally posted by Triadninja

So, I read your whole wall. I love Guild Wars that much.

 

and I was reading it, liked your arguments...

Then I saw number 9. I had no idea they were doing this.

 

I need a change of pants.

It's actually better than Meowhead describes it.

We’re giving players the option of choosing external music playlists that the game’s audio engine will use as a replacement for the default in-game music. Players can choose different playlists for background ambience and battle music, for instance. Additionally, when appropriate, such as during cinematics, the game can revert back to in-game music temporarily to give the best possible cinematic experience, then resume the custom playlist when it’s done.

Originally posted by Triadninja

So, I read your whole wall. I love Guild Wars that much.

 

and I was reading it, liked your arguments...

Then I saw number 9. I had no idea they were doing this.

 

I need a change of pants.

I know right!

I'm going to spend hours just on this alone. Every time I read someting new about GW2, it feels like christmas morning.

besides point #1 all the rest has been done before and therefore not innovative. Nice try though

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

besides point #1 all the rest has been done before and therefore not innovative. Nice try though

If that is true then give me one MMORPG that is just like Guild Wars 2 and has all the features it is boasting, so I can go and play it, because in my opinion, it hasn't been done before. Looking at one particular feature and saying "Oh, this one thing has been kinda sorta done in that one game, so it's no longer innovative" really doesn't mean anything, in the grand scheme of things. I'm personally excited for all the features mentioned here, because they all pretty much come together for ANet's goal in trying to get people playing together. Most MMOs (especially themepark MMOs) just fail at this.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

This is the wrong way to look at this. The right was is that this has been done nearly all the time for every game, and indeed, in nearly every business model for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

You buy something (with gold, barter, paper money, whatever) and it is yours. Now that it is yours, you own it, and you get to keep it unless you sell it to someone else. You own it.

***

The people who say the fee is needed, it obviously isn't. I bought Starcraft. It took a lot of money to make, but I own it, and I can play it, and play it online, whenever I like. Box sales pay for development and publishing and distribution costs. It is designed that way. (Note that the people who made Battle.net are the people who started Arena.net.)

This isn't new. It is old; it is just moral and right.

Totally agreed, but still some caveats here. Even with GW, the fact that we bought the game does not guarantee that we will be able to play it in the future, unlike many of the classic games of old. The unfortunate part is that once the servers get turned off, then that money we spent to buy the game (and all the extras) is lost for good. It's one of the reasons why I stayed away from the MMO genre and still stay away from any game that requires some type of connection to "the cloud" in some form or another to play. I kind of like being able to fire up my old IBM PC XT and play a little classic Wizardry or Forgotten Realms now and again. The only way we can expect that out of GW is if Anet does something truly innovative and ports the game to an off-line single-player version.

Speaking of innovation, I too have a bit of a dislike of the use of that term in the OP. It is a nice post, but I still have no plans on buying the game - it's the stuff that isn't included (as well as some of the stuff that is), that has turned me off. Anyway, as mentioned, not all of these things Anet is doing is really innovative - perhaps as a whole-encompassing project, but I think a better term would be to say what is "interesting" about the individual components as they relate to the game.

BJ