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Guild Wars 2 General Article: No Grind? Yes, Please!
In his latest column, MMORPG.com Community Manager Michael Bitton takes a look at Guild Wars 2 and how ArenaNet has decided to take away the 'been there, done that' feeling that many gamers are experiencing in today's MMOs. Find out what Mike thinks is it that Guild Wars 2 devs are bringing to the genre is exciting the worldwide MMO community.
By Michael Bitton on August 10, 2010
A sort of MMO renaissance appears to be approaching, and at the front of many MMO gamers’ minds are games like Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, TERA, and more. However, earlier this year ArenaNet began to unveil details on the successor to their CORPG Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2.
While Guild Wars carries a certain weight as both a critically and financially successful game for ArenaNet and NCsoft, I don’t think anyone could guess how popular it was to become with MMO aficionados all across the spectrum once ArenaNet began to really show their hand.
Guild Wars 2’s sudden surge in popularity is largely due in part to ArenaNet’s candid assessment of the MMO genre and their clearly outlined plans to address issues that have contributed to a sense of MMO stagnation, a serious “been there, done that” feeling amongst gamers. Innovation is always tricky when it comes to this super high-risk genre. Innovating simply to innovate often results in a game that suffers in every other area, or just becomes too confusing. The pace of successful advancement in this genre could definitely be best described as evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
Since the release of ArenaNet studio head Mike O’Brien’s design manifesto, the team has targeted specific facets of MMO games and illustrated at length how they plan to change things up, not only for the sake of changing, but as a necessity. The laundry list ranges from everything from storytelling, to combat, exploration, death, and a good deal more. However, what we’ll be talking about this week is progression.
ArenaNet recently revealed details on the game’s experience curve (or lack there-of), as well as plans for item progression. Guild Wars 2 will not feature a grind; instead, the leveling curve plateaus early on, Given the history of the original Guild Wars, it should come as little surprise to people that the game’s successor would not put a huge emphasis on leveling (players could level cap in the original in a matter of days, or even create max level characters for PvP), but ArenaNet revealed that Guild Wars 2 would be a full-fledged MMOG some time ago, unlike its predecessor, and this left the speed of progression a bit of a mystery.
Gamers should also be happy to know that they shouldn't expect a post-level cap bait-and-switch with Guild Wars 2, either. Not only will Guild Wars 2 feature a relatively flat leveling curve, but item progression has also been treated in a similar fashion. A post-level cap dungeon-grind won't be waiting for you to make up for the ease of leveling. If there is a dungeon with an item you want in it, you'll only have to do that dungeon a pre-determined finite amount of times to get what you want out of it. You won't spend three days hitting the level cap and then five years gearing up (figures used for sake of argument). Of course, this all based on what ArenaNet is saying, so whether you believe all this or not entirely rests on how much stock you put in their word.
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As ANet’s Isaiah Cartwright pointed out in the blog update, “Anyone can increase the length of an experience bar and call it content”, and that practice is something that’s been a peeve of mine for some time. At the same time, many of us, including myself, understand the necessary evil that is the leveling treadmill; it keeps people playing, but ultimately it’s pretty arbitrary. My biggest peeve has always been the games that force players to tread through a serious amount of levels yet don’t build their content around this fact. Games like Aion, Age of Conan, and I’m sure countless others went into release forcing players to grind after becoming used to a certain rhythm of leveling that consistent content provides players. It’s jarring when you hit a certain level range and suddenly all the quests dry up. If you know your game doesn’t have the content for it, re-evaluate things and adjust the level cap or XP rates accordingly.
So, how does ArenaNet get away with it? The same way they got away with it the first time around! The lack of subscription fees offers the developers the freedom to create a content-driven world and not worry about retention as much (though there is still the mystery on how they plan to fund the continued development of new content for the game, as the scope of Guild Wars 2 is certainly greater than its predecessor).
Mike O’Brien mentioned that they wanted Guild Wars 2 to be fun from “moment to moment” in his original design manifesto, a phrase I’ve personally used when discussing why I don’t like to play certain MMO games with friends, and I was wondering how they were going to accomplish this. The picture has become a lot clearer in the months since that reveal: Visceral combat, many quality of life innovations ranging from the de-emphasizing of traditional class roles, to removing the barrier to entry on grouping (full XP, full loot for all), an interesting take on death as Garrett covered last week, and most of all a lack of focus on “the grind.”
Maybe many of us can still be tricked by this process, but it just doesn’t do it for me anymore. Once you’ve cranked through the first 20 levels or so of a game, you pretty much know how the rest of the leveling experience is going to be, the only difference being that it arbitrarily takes longer per level in order to keep you playing. I’m glad to hear that ArenaNet is focused on making that progression more interesting rather than arbitrarily dragged out.
I didn't want to say it but.... broken link.
Should be good now. Had to make some last minute edits. :)
"If there is a dungeon with an item you want in it, you'll only have to do that dungeon a pre-determined finite amount of times to get what you want out of it. You won't spend three days hitting the level cap and then five years gearing up"
I really like travelling and exploring the world in MMO's across vast outdoors (Forests, Mountains) etc but I never enjoyed these sorts of forced treadmills.
"...ranging from the de-emphasizing of traditional class roles, to removing the barrier to entry on grouping (full XP, full loot for all), an interesting take on death as Garrett covered last week, and most of all a lack of focus on “the grind.”"
Good riddance to healers: Too dependent on their presence in an enemy group or lack of it in your own group! Hopefully people will group-up to create better/more attack options become available as opposed to creating mutual lottery ticket queues. My instinct is that death should be a heavier penalty possibly as well as have the downed state to avoid it??
I really don't want to turn into a fanboy before even testing the game but every time they release new info it makes it harder to resist.
I'm so glad they're doing this, just like the first game. Instead of repetetiveness they're giving variety, much like a console game rather than traditional MMO's
Totally agree. I have a huge feeling this time that this game turn out big.
*claps*
*claps again*
*and claps again*
i still dont get it, then why is the need of levels in this game?
A Net should just remove the level cap
Hey lets make so easy, a caveman can do it. God forbid someone has to work hard to achieve something worth while. They can go ahead and pander to children , lasy arses, and gamers without patience. But I will stick with MMO's that give you the feeling of actual achievement for your dedication.
There are plenty of mmos out there that have the grind you want. Then you can pay them for working in a game. If you don't like the direction this game is going then ignore it, plenty of others for you to play.
I don't equate an arbitrary increase of time with achievement. Making it require 200 quests or 500 mobs to get one level when it used to take 20 quests or 100 mobs doesn't add to the experience, it just makes a level take longer for reasons that don't benefit the player any. Instead, they only serve to keep the player playing longer so they can get more money out of you.
Completing 200 quests vs. 20 quests isn't a measure of difficulty, it's a measure of patience and tolerance. Killing 20 bears to turn in a quest isn't any different from killing 20 Angry Bears 30 levels later. The gameplay often remains the same, the time to level is simply increased.
When your content creation isn't forcibly designed around giving players enough filler to make it through the next level (due to lengthy TTL) you are more free to create interesting and memorable content throughout the progression. When your XP curve dictates it should take X (large) amount of quests to get through a level you aren't going to have time or resources to put together interesting quests to meet that quota, instead you end up with a lot of derivative basic stuff, or even worse, repeatable quests.
I suppose if you prefer running from quest hub to quest hub and clicking a bunch of question/exclamation marks to fill your journal with stuff you don't really care about but are only doing to get the next ding, that is your prerogative. :)
Me? I find ArenaNet's approach here refreshing, and I hope they can follow through on what they've been saying.
In any case, while we disagree, I appreciate your opinion, thanks for reading the article!
I am in loveeeee haha. Bring it on (when its finished).
"Work" should never be associated with a game. The purpose of a game is to have fun. To be lazy. To play. To relax.
I go to work and get paid. I don't want to have to work more when I get home. Especially when I don't get paid for it.
Mike,
ArenaNet just put up a new video and soon another blog (link is currently broken as I write this). It might be something to add to the news section here.
Thanks bud! Looking into it!
Well I think you hit th enail on the head about why ArenaNet can get away with something like this.Their Business model means they don't have to care about giving you something to do between content expansions,they only have to ensure that you fele you got your money's worth of entertainment fromt he box price,so that you will buy the next offering.
So they hav eno need to artificially lengthen the process with the tired tricks of other MMOs ie low drop rates on quest items,Making you travel across the world 20 times to complete a quest chain,making you run dungeons over and over to win the itmes you want from boss drops if they happen to drop at all,waiting for rare spawns etc.
I've seen some people raise the arguement "why get so excited over Anet's announcements - devs lie to overhype their games all the time?"
While it's true that we can point to many instances of devs stretching the truth in the past, this game seems a little different. I won't try to speak for others, but I've been playing MMOs for a long time and when I listen to what the Anet devs are saying, I believe them; because they know what they are talking about. They've come to a similar assessment of what MMO conventions can and should be innovated upon than I have.
I suspect much of the (well deserved) hype over this game is due to the fact that other mmo vets and even those who've been watching the genre, on the fence on when and where to step in, are seeing it the same way I do.
It's worth getting excited about, because even if they don't necessarily reach all their goals by launch (some features are left out, some don't accomplish what they were designed to do, etc) - you know that they have the right idea and will continue to improve the game based on that.
Alternatively, you could believe they have a really good idea of what needs to be done but choose to lie about actually doing it - which would be sort of pointlessly self-defeating.
New guildwars 2 video....After watching this im a believer now...This need to hurry up and come out i cant wait.
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/#gw2-video-manifesto
You're clearly never played Guild Wars 1. I think you got your things backwards... I CAVEMAN could grind. A caveman would fail at a skill based game like GW and GW2.
A caveman could grind. But a caveman would fail at a skill based game (like GW and GW2).
Well Mike, I actually play for the content. I always read the quests and follow the story line on first playthrough. I get tired of reaching Lvl caps in a month or less, and blowing through content with all classes available, then end up sitting with my thumbs up my Arse until an expansion or update. That was my problem with Guild Wars 1, a Cap of 20. I got my Warrior there in a Week, then had to do the same for every class after. Thank god the game was free after purchase. I just don't want the same experience in the new game except with a monthly payment. Now I am not saying they don't have interesting content/features for the new game. My main concern is that the Game will be too easy. Best Example: World of Warcraft in 1 1/2 months I Lvled 1 Shaman to 80, a Warlock to 73, and a Warrior to 55. It should take more than 1 month to reach lvl cap. I don't want to buy a Game for $60, run through it's content in a month, then wait and pay $15 a month for a year until new content is released.
Now excuse me, I am going to go pay my neighbor to let me do his yard work.
So you stopped playing at level 20? Most of the content was at the max level. If you really do play for content then you really missed the boat in GW.
The thing about GW1 was there was grind for those people who enjoyed it and it was in the form of TITLES! Titles are the things that CAN make a person feel special, better, more tuned to the game design and more of a veteran than most players. From what I've head these titles will still be in GW and because they anet has made them unimportant to achieve but more important to those who want to achieve them, they struck the perfect balance for many players.
Let me give you an example of the type of titles you achieve in GW1 because they don't deal with killing a certain type of mob. To achieve Guardian of Elona, you have to finish all the missions in Hard mode, to achieve Legendary Vanquisher you have to finish kill all the mobs in all the instanced zones in the campaign in Hard mode, to achieve Legendary Delver you have to do dungeons in both Hard mode and Normal mode whilst collecting points for it.
Legendary Vanquisher and Legendary Delver are the more "grindy" title tracks and those are made specifically for those people who like to have achievements and things to say they are good at the game and they know what they are doing.
Those are the kinds of things Anet goes for rather than "increasing the time it takes to level and calling it content".
Oh yeah, As soon as reached 20 and logged out. Makes alot of sense to do so. I was also talking Original GW not Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. After the content all I had left was running people everywhere for cash and that got old quick.
joseph567, considering single player based RPG's cost about the same and they offer mostly 100 hours until you go through it all...
There's no monthly payment in gw2 Joseph567
Also, joseph567, there will not be a monthly fee for GW2. the fact that you missed the point of the game notwithstanding (hint: it's not to get to level 20 and log out). It's okay if the game is not for you.
Also playing an "mmo" for the single player only strikes me as odd.
Ahh, I miss the days of FF7 and it's 4 discs.
My mistake one of the other articles I read, it was still undecided on a monthy fee or not, but was leaning towards a fee.
I was being sarcastic about logging out at Lvl 20, I spent alot of time playing GW. The only real challenge was getting My Legendary Defender of Ascalon Title.
From this post, all I can gather is you consider only leveling up as content..... and i gotta say... wow... just wow. If it was GW: Prophecies you played, and even if you got to level 20 there is still; the underworld, the fissure of woe, Sorrow's furnace and the Hard Mode I was talking about, to do. You obviously didn't play those because those were mooonths worth of content for me and it took only 6 months for the next expansion to arrive and I hadn't even finished all the other stuff yet. In GW factions there are; Urgoz Warren and the deep as well as a host of challenge missions, in GW Nightfall there are challenge missions, Hard mode and the domain of anguish which you have access to after you finish the game and by going to the chantry of secrets.
Getting to the highest level is not all that is there to see and do, you should have explored more instead of twiddling thumbs.
Ummmm........I have a guild. I PvP as well. but since I level at a fast pace, I do it solo alot, then help guildmates Lvl.
Playing the first Guildwars in hardmode is as hard as any raid (well, most raids at least). The first 20 levels are not that hard but still a lot harder than the early bits of Wow. And getting an Obsidian armor takes skill (and unfortunatly some grind too).
However you are right about one thing, with some training could a caveman play it. Cavemens were not stupid, try to live like that yourself and you'll see. They were not much different from any of us 'cept they didn't have so fancy toys.
Still, some of my achivements in GW are the ones I am most proud of in a MMO, my EQ2 raid gear will be worthless at next expansion but the harder titles of GW are still around and if I log in it will impress newer players still.
But there is a reason I don't play it anymore, my character didn't evolve much after the first month of playing. 2 years gave me a bunch of cool titles and some better looking gear but it got boring in the end. GW2 seems to have fixed this.
As I see it there is a big difference between working hard and doing a stupid daily quest for 3 months or running the same dungeon a 100 times. Working hard is when your group works great together to overcome hard odds, not doing the same boring stuff over and over.
Hard and grind is not the same thing, not even close. Grinding demands just time and patience, nothing else.
My post you quoted, That includes all the Raids and Dungeons on my main. As for Guild Wars the Twiddling of the thumbs was while WAITING for the Content to be RELEASED. In 1 of my other posts I mentioned that I was talking before the expansions. You cannot do anything if the Expansion was not released yet. Right?
as if anything in the GW1 came easy for anyone..no you farmed, you tried and tested build after build and after they balanced the skills you were using you tested more and more builds, had to ahve your timing down, perfect movement with enemy spawns making sure to agrro only certain groups.
so what leveling wont be that hard. Im sure PvP will still be hardcore (sure not FFA full loot but dying in 2 seconds if you forgot a skill)
Originally the pve in GW: Prophecies was just a training ground for pvp. If you didn't want to pvp I could see someone getting bored of the game. The shift toward pve really came with Nightfall (and some aspects of Factions).
if that is more grind then hardwork once you get the group to the respawn
"GRIND" is a state of mind, you think you need to level up a skill or character in order to be able to play the game.
I have never grinded any game, as long as the game has content I am perfectly happy to play casually. I never reached level 60 in EQ1, too much shit to do that I loved and I played it for 2 years. I made it to level 40 in WoW, I got bored and quit because the content was boring as hell. YEAH i hear the content at end game was good, but why not make all the content good so people can enjoy leveling, then there is no need to "GRIND".
I believe you need a good combination of each in order to be successful. You can have progression without content and people will eventually see that there is nothing. you can have content without progression and people will feel no reward.
Games that have engaging content throughout all levels of play will be rewarding on a regular basis and people will not feel the need to "GRIND" themselves to death, they will continue to play for years and years.
I just hope that in GW2 there will be plenty of "reward" while your playing to keep you from thinking, "hmm, what am I working for?"
"Originally the pve in GW: Prophecies was just a training ground for pvp. If you didn't want to pvp I could see someone getting bored of the game. The shift toward pve really came with Nightfall (and some aspects of Factions)."
I thought the opposite, prophecies had little to no pvp, except arenas and the hall. Factions really brought out the awesomeness of pvp with kurzick and luxon battlegrounds
I guess it depends on your preference on the type of pvp you play. Factions started the whole pve only skills though.
Nerdgasm!!!!!!!!
You didn't mention that, it sounded more like you were tossing the game to the side after you hit the level cap and that is what you emphasized on.
You didn't mention which expansion you were talking about at first and you didn't say that you did anything after lvl 20 so in many ways its sounded like you were trying to diss the game when there was still PLENTY of content to go through after hitting the level cap which (it sounded like) you ignored.
Legendary Defender of Ascalon, a challenge? That, my friend, is pure grind, plain and simple. There is no challenge to it, only death leveling something to kill it, rinse, repeat. You are a completionist, you like grind. Have fun turning that crank for more xp.
As for the article, I thought it was great. I could feel energy and excitement in it. It appears that the GW2 bug is going around, and its got MikeB bad. ;)
I welcome this endeavor with open arms. Although I never tried the first GW I'm looking forward to giving it's successor a spin. I think it was the lack of a huge world that turned me off. But it's approach to crapping on the leveling trendmill had me intrigued. I always felt like MMOs in general never got the whole D&D experience right from the PnP roots they were born from. In D&D the focus was on your own character's development and his/her place in the world. We didn't start a session to grind anything or meet 11.5 million other players in the world we created for 3-5 people.
For the most part we were a group of 3-5 that each had the means of taking care of ourselves and capable of continue with our journey even if we were short a person that night. But when MMOs hit all of a sudden it changed from a very personal experience of a group of friends into this massive orgy of people that you were suppose to enjoy playing with.
This crap is coming from people who often never RP or even understand the spirit of PnP D&D to begin with. It's not about playing with the masses, it's more about knowing that the world is populated with colorful characters. I think GW2 is looking to bring back this magic.
In the past MMO developers put in tedious level grinding in order to string players along long enough to get a good return. Endgame was no where to be found. When endgame became the new grind and levels were replaced by gear, I grew even more tired of that rediculous moneypit. What I was looking for was a game that captured the pacing and enjoyment of 1-20 in WoW:
If a MMO can open the game up to a whole world to explore after the introduction is done and keep players from being herded from zone to zone because of level restrictions, then I'm all for it.
I need to reconnect with other players based on the character of the person playing, not what character that person is playing.
The sooner players get over how important their character appears in the game compared to others, the better the MMO genre will be. We need more showmanship in this genre, not showboaters.
It's a bit arrogant to assume that working towards something isn't fun for another person. Yes for you being lazy, playing and relaxing works. But for him putting extra time in the game in for something is, I know it's hard for some people to grasp, fun. Don't paint with such a wide brush and people won't point out the paint outside the lines.
END OF LINE_
~V
First off. Great Job A-Net!! Keep it up!
[mod edit - please keep it civil]
GUILD WARS 2 FTW!!!
They just released a new video on their website that is truely epics! Check it out.. and MMORPG.com you should post an article about it plz.. thanks.
It sounds like you're equating hitting the level cap to finishing the game. This isn't even the case with WoW, let alone GW. If this is really all you're looking for from your gaming experience (a long, drawn-out climb to reach level cap), you're missing the whole point of playing.
I was a bit surprised when I first picked up GW and found the cap to be only 20, then saw how quickly it could be attained. However, the game certainly never stopped there. Other plateaus followed that weren't based on level, such as Ascension, getting infused, and of course, the actual end-game itself. People are way too hung up on the little numbers beside their character names as symbols of their success. I'd just as soon see levels disappear altogether. Failing that, make levels as arbitrary as possible. Wait, isn't that what GW has already done? Good show...
Playing a video game isn't really an achievement dude. Try doing something outside that's worthwhile. Video games are entertainment and socialization. Although, to be fair, it is whatever you make it to be. For some people it is their life and the achievements they feel they get within games overshadow everything else. For the rest of us they are just entertaining.
If you reach out to video games to achieve things then you should be playing other games most likely. EVE comes to mind as far as difficulty. Final Fantasy XI and Aion come to mind if you don't like being carebeared. If you're comparing Guild Wars to WoW then you're in sad shape to think that playing WoW is an achievement. I play WoW. It's entertaining in a different sort of way.
In Guild Wars Factions and Nightfall levels 1-20 were essentially the tutorial. I wouldn't base too many games on their tutorial areas. Prophecies, on the other hand, did draw out leveling. Even then level 20 did not get you to the end of the game. It sounds like you missed out on the game.
however, I agree that Guild Wars is not for you. I would suggest AION. It will take you a bit of time to reach the level cap.
We already did!
This is one feature I'm the most excited about. Leveling has never really done it for me. It's just a pat on the back for playing for a certain duration of time. Anyone can get to max level. Glad to see the focus taken off the numbers and put back onto gameplay.
Joey, if you can do that you are missing the content. These games are MMORPGs, not MMOs. A MMO is a broad heading under which many sorts of games fit. MMORPGs, RPGs that are MMOs, are about story as all RPGs are. You are falsely equating level with story and that is just not appropriate, period. The games that are currently out disproportionatly empahsise level over story, even though level only helps to facilitate experiencing more of the story, and this is what players are used to experiencing. This is an excellent marketing tool because people will become rather attached to their playing buddies and not want to leave, even though the game has very little for them. In essence, you are propping up a marketing scheme that is incredibly manipulative of people as content. With that, your opinion is completely irrelevant. I hate to say it but, well, true is true: you just refuse to see the point.
It does not sound like they are moving forwards on class roles, it sounds like they are moving backwards, back to what Diablo had in the 90's.
yes, because having waffle marks on your ass for sitting down longer than the other guy certainly earns you a cookie?
In the end, no mather how they do it, they have to give players something that can't be achieved easily. It doesn't have to be levels or gear, although gear is usually a nice thing to get players to drool on, but there has got to be something that you need to work for. That will show the time you put on the game.
In Age of Conan for example, I think content does that. Playing T3 is not available for everyone out of the box, even if you are at level cap, even if you have the previous loot, etc. Skill and organisation is required, and heck, no one even got through it all after several months.
I'll play GW2, and don't care much about the grinding or lack of it, 1-2 months in it won't matter anymore anyway, no mather what they do. I want to see what they plan to do to keep an organized group of players hooked up on the game after level cap. Making the progression easy so you want to do it with several characters is no game seller for me, what they offer for you to push your character as far as possible is a lot more interesting to me.
What I loved about Guild Wars (450 days ingame) was the fact that I really wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to my level as much as the story and as it progressed a long with all the skills you received. I can feel as if that's what it's going to be like this time around and let me tell ya, The levels don't even matter... it's the content and they're (arenanet) going nail GW2.
No grind = win. I work and I don't have countless hours of free time as some do. So at times being able to get in only 2 hours of gameplay and feel like you acomplished something is great for me. This game will have a ton of replayability so it is going to be awesome! :)
That's right Joe you keep on "working" in the games you play more power to you. The rest of us will have fun and play in games.
Most of us don't log on in hopes of "working" we rather just play and have fun.
When I work I get paid...When I play I don't work...see the dichotomy?
Cheers!
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Joe you seem pretty bitter man...that's pretty sad. GW2 is coming out and it is going in a direction you don't like those are facts you have to accept you have no control over this.
Secondly, if you don't like this then quit posting in here and griefing on GW2??
Every time I read about this game I feel like someone at Arenanet is recording my thoughts, and then making a game based on in. GW was my fave game for a long time, now GW2 has all of these features that I've wanted in games for as long as I can remember AND it's no monthly. That is incredible.
I'd give more money to purchase the box initially to make up for it, I mean, how are these guys going to make money?
But there is a lot of fun to "work" with friends toward a common goal, one that is not trvially achieved. I totally agree that lengthening the grind for grinding's sake doesn't make much sense, but that's almost irrelevant anyway in the life span of the game. People still play GW1, getting to the level cap is FAR behind them at this point, no matter how much time it took at the moment. The ease of progression is not a major point when you are looking at 3-5 or more years of playing a game. Still having a goal in-game after those years is more complex.
An exemple could be the private servers for many grinding games. You can get to cap level in a day there, it doesn't make the game any better.
If you make raid encounters (or level grinding, or anything) fun to play, people will play them for little to no rewards. If you give rewards freely, it still has to have that same quality, or it won't matter how easy it is to get them, people won't bother.
I just love the leveling curve. I used to play MMO's before and the level grind is terrible. It doesn't feel fun anymore and I am obliged to level up because I can't do much unless I reached the max level or near it. This is a breathe of fresh air. Finally, somebody that is so passionate to change all that. Thank you Arenanet!
So we'll give you a game with a great big EASY button. Push it,and you win. Now you have more time for the rest of your life.
Gaming is something you do because you have disposable time, not something you are forced to fit in.
This. So absolutely true, and a small bit that has been forgotten by so many developers. EQ2 had a system that would allow you to lower your level to play with a friend, but it basically halted any advance for you. In a perfect world, you and your friends could play together and level at exactly the same pace, so this wouldn't be an issue. But of course, this is basically never the case in reality. Give me the ability to enjoy my character and those of my fellow players by REMOVING the barrier that leveling enforces. So many times I level out of a particular bracket and miss out on great content because it would provide no benefit to me. With the system they are detailing, that would be a thing of the past. So looking forward to playing this game.
I have to say that I am very pleased thus far.
they'll continue development of GW2 the same way they were able to continue the development of GW1, massive profit from the initial sale of the first game and then 1 "expac" every 6 months. 15x4 = $60, a new game = $50. If you can keep sales going, like ANet did through PvP, new skills, new classes, new game story content etc then they'll make mad cash.
100 gold says this guy never played early Lineage2, and thus has never truely seen a hardcore grind.
I hardly see how leveling and gearing up in with zero curve is good thing. Few MMOs have a good difficulty curve anyway, I quit WoW because the only hard part was leveling professions, which wasn't even that hard at all and then there's the other end of the spectrum, games like earlier Lineage 2 where the level cap took years to get to unless you botted night and day. I just got a Guild Wars trial and honestly if the cap is twenty I don't see how I could play the full version for more than a week and a half and don't say, "After you hit cap you PvP", because I hate PvP. Point is, even if the level cap is doubled I still wouldn't pay more than $20 for GW2.
Nobody has ever claimed that hitting level cap in GW = go pvp, in fact once you hit level cap youre just getting started. You can hit level cap easily before even finishing the original game content/storyline, and then tehres several expansions worth of story and additional content/features and various things to do afte rhitting 20.
All games have grind. Whether it be for stats, money, gear, etc. What are you, stupit?
Right, because death penalties = a hard game, and having dedicated healers is the only way to make a game complex./difficult (even though logically it's the exact opposite.... good dedicated healer & tank = everything in the game is a walk in the park).
I love how people equate either of those things with everything in the game suddenly becomes easy, every enemy and boss can be soloed with ease godmode-like, you dont even need to think, just sit there doing 1 thing with no challenge whatsoever. Ever played single player game without harsh death penalties? Usually it's just resetting to last save point or something. Does that instantly make the game easy? Hell most single player games have much more challenging gameplay, more challenging boss fights, etc than any MMORPG, and they do it WITHOUT harsh death penalties. Do you have a dedicated healer in every single player game keeping you alive? Oh, whats that? You normally have to keep yourself alive through self heals, potions/bandages/whatever... omg all those games are soooooo easy mode, i can beat them all with both eyes closed and 1 hand on the controller.
Singleplayer game != MMO so don't mix them up. No death penalty + no pure healer + no real leveling curve + no grind = is clear picture for ME, others might differ but at this point its obvious that GW 2 won't be a game for ME:now we only need someone to combine this ideas with a TRUE persistent mmo world :)
my single player games have a persistent world too, now we get a "coop" game as it seems.
gfx and ideas are really brilliant, i hate those instances tho :<
If you think GW2 will be nothnig more than a MMO light, then you clearly haven't played GW a lot, let alone its expansions as Eye of the North.
GW2 IS a true persistent world.
The more I read and see about this game the more excited I get. I honestly haven't felt this excited about any game in a very long time. Part of me keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop though. I am waiting with excitment and caution.
Cant wait till this game is rdy :-)
This troll just confirmed that he never played thru GW1's challenge-content ...considering that it had some quests that most people NEVER completed b/c they were simply too hard for all but the experts. ...and not hard as in taking forever to finish, no they'd take only a matter of minutes to actually complete, but only if you had uncanny reflexes and an Epic understanding of all the game's mechanics. ...apparently GW2 has content in it's Alpha that lives up to this already. Personally I don't think that level of challenge is healthy even if it is a better measure of player competance than grinding is...
After reading this article i was pulled in two directions..I dislike the idea of not having to earn things etc that comes with levels and such. On the other hand I have always been of the mind content is the more important thing in an MMO and "grind" is merely the symptom of boring or non-existent content. Levels do not equal grind... lack of fun content = grind. So after browsing the two links in the article and reading what ANet was saying about level progression versus content I am begining to think that they believe this idea too and that is where they come up with the flat level curve. They seem to be approaching the game from the viewpoint of Fun content first with levels merely being the offshoot of doing that content as opposed to acquiring levels as the content.
So I keep getting pulled in two directions as to whether this game will be good in my opinion or not and after digging into what ANet actually says in their own words I keep coming away with the thought that this will be worth buying. Only time will tell though...however....its hard to believe that paying a single price with no sub fees that I would be unable to get my moneys worth out of the game. For those who dont think this model wont work...one thing you will notice is the price for GW1 never really went down untill much later and they sold 6 Million copies with expansions etc. With that kind of model you are looking at a potential of $300 million dollar return on a $50M to $100M investment with expansions adding even more later down the road and with no sub fees you probably wont see large population drops either...healthy gamer population can do more to keep a game alive and new players buying than anything else...so long as the game is worth playing in the first place.
*trying to hold back shreiking fangirl 'squeeeeeeeee' sounds*
......trying
........trying
..........tryi o m g SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
I cannot WAIT! But...I will gladly wait, because I want it to be polished and finished and goooooood.
Why is it that the video won't play? It says I require flash 9 and I have flash 10...
Your reasoning is why I avoid most MMOs. Very few people, I come across, have a clue about the RPG part. Grinding their life away on a game is acceptable to them. Very sad. I hope GW2 does bring back the magic.
Try our link. :)
Try Beating every single skill-quest in EotN if you like solo challenges. Or if you want a real challenge that trumps years of leveling Titles, beat Mallyux on hardmode without Leeching off a fully organized or semi-organized guild/PuG Team then get back to us on how easy it was...
And you feel it necessary to tell everyone this because??? ... No actually I don't believe you. It looks more like you simply got caught badmouthing something you don't understand and you can't be bothered to learn any of the reasoning for these changes. But you don't want to look like a willful ignoramous so you just up and changed the intended audience of your original post to only yourself and anyone else who thinks like you. But it doesn't change that you expected to get away with crapping all over something that's very popular with more articulate people than youself; on the basis that it's lacking some-now very unpopular things.
...go on, keep backtracking like that last guy did, it's very amusing.
The more I see coming from GW2, the more I want to know and the more interested I am in it. As my sister said, it's moving quickly to the top of her list, and it's on the way up mine too. Most games I am skeptical about all the claims, but I am starting to believe they can deliver what they say.
When people have to grind, atleast a little bit, they grow an attatchment to their characters. Just throwing them to max level and easily attainable max gear will be a disaster.
Removing the grind is not the same as removing the challenge.
Even more, it seems they strive to make your leveling experience a constant challenge and entertainment.
Where do you get that it's easy or anything is just being thrown at the player? A finite amount of time does not equate to easy. Grinding does not build more of an attachment, it becomes tedious and boring.
Think about it this way, if every level takes 2-3 hours per level, and there are 80 levels, you're looking at 160-240 hours of gameplay from 1-80. Hell, it's 80 hours of gameplay if it's one hour per level. This does not include any content after level cap as well.
Also, gear acquisition as an endgame mechanic is how many mmorpgs deliver "content". To me, that's not content delivery, it's blatant carrot-on-a-stick to ensure subs. GW2 doesn't have a subscription cost, so ArenaNet doesn't have to work hard to keep you paying, but what they don't want is to make the game fun to keep you playing (and wanting to purchase expansions). I really do hope that gear is somewhat easy to obtain, because then it reduces the importance of gear and ArenaNet will have to provide content in a different way.
ArenaNet seems to really want to make changes, and those changes are going to make people feel uncomfortable. However, if they can deliver a solid game with a good amount of polish, we could be facing another major evolution of the genre. After years of being burned by other developers people are going to be very skeptical, and I personally hope ArenaNet can deliver.
Sounds like there are more people than I thought that enjoy grinds in games.
I equate it to banging my head against the wall a bunch of times. I'm not sure how people can enjoy it but to each their own.
I can remember grinding in EQ in the higher levels, no quests around to gain XP so it came to hunting mobs.
Funny thing though, it didn't feel as a grind or boring, because you were in a group doing it, and groups were more communicative and relaxed back then than current WoW dungeon runs. Also, the fights could get very hectic and challenging, this combined with the added danger of losing a few hours of XP when you died prevented you from going through your fights on autopilot.
O.M.G.
Well said!!! This is one reason why Single Player RPGS are so successful. The other reasons have to do with an actual story being told and that you are an active participant with evidence of your actions having an effect on the game world being another part of the success formula; see Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fable, etc. While Blizzard does have a strong hold on the market with a rather successful formula of treadmill + slot machine this may come under attack from both Guild Wars 2 and The Old Republic. I think with these two games we will have an opportunity to show our non-gamer, wow playing friends why we got into gaming in the first place.
Of course both of these games could very well fall flat on their face but we will have to see. I know I am looking forward to both. Hopefully this idea takes hold. 38 studios has one of the better fantasy writers alive today with Salvatore, funcom with their 2, THQ's WH40k, and other AAA titles coming in the next couple years..... maybe they may take some of these ideas and incorporate them?
From the sentiment and focus of the developers on this game, I can safely say that I can see myself spending a lot of money on "stuff" from this game. So far, I have the novel, the calendar, and two copies of the art book. I respect these people that much! Blizzard, on the other hand, has always had a haughty ambivalence towards their players, unless they happen to be in one of the elite guilds. I've never felt that they care about me. I don't get that feeling with ArenaNet.
If you played GW1 you would know that any level can wear any gear and all that remains after that is if you have enough money to purchase the gear as well as buying runes to raise your armour stats. And once you hit a certain pace, you will almost always have money to improve your gear. The thing you should remember is gear in general is aesthetic (at least in GW1) with only a minor buff to some damage types, it is how you fit your runes that make your gear what it is.
sounds to good to be true, my only worry is that i will run out of things to do besides pvp very very soon after release :(
This is bad news indeed as there is nothing innovative with fast leveling. WoW started it and a plethora of games followed it and now hitting the cap in weeks for a casual player is common and a matter of days for hardcore players.
This limits the life of the game and takes away the special sense of hitting the cap because well, everyone will be doing it. And then what is there to compete for? PvP battlegrounds?
If you like to grind and you like to feel special, there are titles and achievements.
Just looked at the newest video...wow...just wow. Bring it...
You're missing the point. The designers aren't changing the leveling curve with the sole intent of making leveling faster. If they wanted to make it fast, they would make it like GW1 where you could reach max level in a week. Their goal is to focus the players more on the content rather than grinding levels. They believe making every level take approximately the same amount of time will accomplish this. You're not supposed to want to go for the cap just to say you got there, you're supposed to hit the cap and say "Wow, I had a lot of fun getting to this point."
What he said :)
The game is going to be about the journey and savouring it, it's getting away from what MMO's have traditionally done; giving you time sinks to get to max level to do more grinding to get max gear.
I think it's absolutely fine that people like grinding and get a sense of achievement that way, personally I prefer challenging content over grind anyday and as long as GW2 can deliver that I'll be a happy man.
Hmm.. i have a feeling i heard this hype talk before.
I reserve judgment until its released.
Levels seperate how long a character has been playing, nothing else really. So by making it easier(read: More Fun) to get to the max level GW2 will have to offer different ways to show who's put in the most effort. Becuase ultimately thats what most players want - recognition for their time (and for being OMWAWESOME!!! yadda yadda)
It'll be interesting to see how they work gear into the game, seeing as low level gear will be obsolete quickly and a high number of players will be wanting the same max level equipment....
I just have read this design manifesto, and I must admit I am impressed. Finally a game company has come to the same conclusion I keep saying about MMOs for about 5 years. Don't believe it? Dig into all my old posts.
*pads himself on the shoulder* Well done Elikal. After 5 years it seems most companies start to see things through your eyes! Job done, now I can move on and save other worlds in peril. XD
I just wonder why it took some long to realize the obvious. Ever since I came here I preached this "people don't want hours to prepare to have fun some future time." I guess I posted this idea dozens of times, and I was bashed almost every single time I said that. Great that the unavoidable finally was realized.
Time out on this, it takes more than a graph to prove they got rid of the grind. I just don't see it happening but I am sure they have a few tricks up their sleeve. Will that be enough though?
Leveling in guildwars was never a grind in the first place. But you can bet your ass they put in hundreds of other grinds in.
But this is of all the things promised, this is not the one to doubt
because this it how it was in the original
The logic is that Anet is able to try this strategy BECAUSE of their financial model.
That is, they are "free" to avoid thoseTRULY DELIBERATE time sinks that are annoying even on your first character, and mind numbingly tedious for alts. Take Turbine's LOTRO, for example, which with their first expansion (Mines of Moria) introduced a type of armour, called radiance gear. This effectively "forced" players to repeat certain instances before they could proceed to the raid content.
Another example, filler quests at medium and high levels. You know the type. Kill 10 extra extra extra tough rats or orcs or boars for no good reason whatsoever. They abound in the "normal" MMO and they are ONLY there because they are cheap to make and the leveling process needs to be drawn out so you subscribe for longer. Blech.
I'm enjoying Anet's MMO "rebelliousness". Heck, I'm cheering them on.
After reading this and watching the Manifesto video several times yesterday, it occurred to me that Blizzard is probably watching this with interest,especially since ArenaNet was forged from former Blizzard talent. Blizzard has never been an innovator and has always built upon the development risks taken by others. If ArenaNet delivers on this, with their business model, it could take a significant notch out of WoW's profits, the only thing Vivendi seems to take note of.
Definately. Titlehunting in GW for example is a serious grind. But the main difference with other MMO's is that GW puts the grind in superficial things. You can also participate in most of GW activities right from the start. PVP at max lvl for example.
Lvl cap in GW is no grind, getting max armour is no grind. But if you want to get some fancy looking armour (same stats), the grind starts. As opposed to other MMO's where even mundane stuff requires grinding.
Example :
Some of the more popular MMO's for example have this world which is clearly designed for travelling on mount. To get a mount, you not only have to pay an arm and leg, but also level up to a certain point before you are even allowed. Its so obvious to anyone that its a carrot on a stick.
If you look at it from an immersive point of view, it just doesnt make sense. Your toon is greatly skilled in the art of war, but cant even ride a bloody horse! Its also not really a reward in this gamedesign, but more about lifting a travelling penalty. I cant stand this kind of gamedesign.
Here's the thing:
ArenaNet's trailer, while exciting, comes very close to saying that the player's choices will influence the world around him/her. It won't. These Personal Quests are almost certainly going to be in an instanced format.
And the more illusion ArenaNet wants to create about us influencing the world, the more instancing will be necessary, because technology just hasn't advanced to the point that an "open world" MMO can handle this.
Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully I'm wrong. God, I hope I'm wrong -- it would be fantastic if it happened in the open world -- but I definitely don't see it happening with a subscription-less heavily instanced format.
ArenaNet's challenge will be trying to maintain an "MMO" sense with all these personal stories thrown in. In the original Guild Wars it felt too much like Diablo -- the "open world" was nothing but a lobby in a town where you meet to hop into an instance. These Personal Quests could just be elaborate, personalized instances, which would be a letdown.
So yeah, I'm not hyped until I get more informaiton.
It has not as much as feeling to be special but rather competetiveness. If 1000 people compete and they all get to be number 1 then where is the competetiveness.
What you call grind I call putting in an effort, if everyone can be number 1 with no effort then there is no number 1. Also territorial PvP becomes meaningless as the territories would not be worth anything.
Your idea has been spoonfed to you by the Everquest machine and all copies thereafter, including WoW. The idea that numerical goals should be where the competition lies.
I welcome any company's image that level caps should be irrelevant. The moment you put in a numerical goal to the game, players will generally do nothing but work towards it.
In Warhammer Online's RvR, the developers were puzzled why nobody was defending a fort. Everyone played offense, nobody played defense. Why would we not have the pride to defend our forts? Simple -- Mythic made the mistake of having RvR armor require Renown Rank to purchase, and the returns in Renown EXP were much higher if you just captured instead of defended. Players had their eyes on nothing but "maximum returns".
These numerical goals have to be eliminated -- not managed, *eliminated* as much as possible -- to keep ideas like yours from ruining the game for more casual players.
In EA's NHL10, skaters were able to pretty much "max out" the bonuses they earn for their online skaters about a month after the release (150 games or so). And yet loads of people are playing it almost a year later. Why? Because it's a sport, not a min-max grind -- skill and teamwork are emphasized over numerical goals.
If a company can pull this off, they can actually keep both hardcore and more casual players under one umbrella... unless you're the "chase after min-max number goals" hardcore type, which no company should build a game around.
OMG a game on the interweb has hype! I'll go ahead and estimate that the odds of GW2 living up to the hype and expectations to be exactly 0.0%.
You do realize that 1000 people can complete something in every other MMO with grinding right? It isn't hard for those who want it to put the effort into the max lvl max gear max max max. You say it is like WoW when GW1 is about the same as GW2 it appears when it comes to leveling. In the Factions and Nightfall they put a lot of emphasis on skills and story. Eye of the North had just enough grinding in it for people to stay satisfied and story to keep everyone interested to want to know what happens next.
A fewl levels are a good idea so people learn to play the character's combat style and not play like noobs. As long as it's not 60 - 100 lvls I'm fine.
This is the type of backwater thinking that needs to be crushed A.S.A.P.! Why do we need to stroke egos in a 1up fashion? I grow tired of thinking of my fellow gamer as a rival (friendly or not). What I want is a group of companions that are as unique as the people playing them. I want rangers that look completely different, yet are equally skilled. I want healers and warriors that base their appearrance on how their characters make them feel, not what their gear dictates.
This was touched on by someone earlier that mentioned how GW1's gear was mostly superficial and runes gave gear it's usefulness. I hope they continue this tradition in GW2. Role playing is what gives a gaming world it's charm. When I watch any fantasy movie I love the look of each of the characters. I don't have to have a costume change every 20 minutes. When you think of characters like Darth Vader, Indiana Jones, Batman, Gandalf or Drizzt do'urden you get an idea in your head of how these characters look and form a clear picture of how they act or what they are like.
This uniqueness is what draws us to wanting to learn more about them. This is what we need more of in MMORPGs. We need players to grow more attached to their avatars because their avatars are a manifestation of their desire to make deep, rich, thoughtful characters to populate these worlds. Inside and out.
grimmbot, the environment-changing effects will be happening in the open world via dynamic events. The water pipes you see bursting in the Manifesto video, the bridge you see collapsing - those are in the open world, and the damage will remain visible and will impact everyone on the server unless and until they are able to be rebuilt/repaired - which will not occur immediately.
In the open world, if the centaurs raid a village, they take it over for real; you cannot buy from merchants there (because the merchants have been imprisoned or killed), the town is destroyed/sacked, etc. Again, this occurs in the open world.
you are wrong ! luckely you are wrong!
because the player choises that influence the world around him is based on his impackt on dynamic events. If a player solo a dynamic event and fail to proteckt and village and its burned down. Then its burned down for all on the server!
you should read up upon "dynamic events" - because Arena net exsactly claim that they have a mmo technology that can handle that.
I couldn't agree more MikeB. I am a long time MMO Player, and this is indeed refreshing. This genre needs change plain and simple. There are too many MMO's that are too similar, there needs to be some harsh differences, with GW2, this makes it a no brainer to play, especially with the fact that it will be free to play, other than purchasing the box, and further expansions. In my opinion in the battle of P2P and F2P, this should be the future of the MMO genre, the way Global Agenda, Guild Wars, and now Guild Wars 2 is going about thier business. Sure the sub model is great, it generates revenue for server maintenace, customer support, and dedicated GM's...well thats what it is supposed to go to anyways...lol
There are alot of choices coming up, RIFT is doing some things different than other MMO's, but not to the Extreme GW2 is, your choice is simply to play or not to play, if you dont like what GW2 has to offer, then don't support thier business model, go support what best fits your play style. Most people are afraid of change, investors feel the same way, if it's not broke then don't fix it, however this genre is broken, its old and repetitive, and while there are a few differences between MMOs its still generally the same thing over and over. EQ vs. DAoC...2 WAYYYYY different MMO's, but use the same mechanic...grind. And hey thats all good I put my 10+ years in grinding, playing every MMO you have heard of, and a ton you probaby never have heard about. its time for a change, and with GW2 it makes choices a bit easier for me as the game will 1. be free to play after purchase, 2. give me a different feeling and experience from the normal MMO. I used to call MMO's online novels. When they were in their infancy stages, like UO, EQ, DAoC even that start of EQ2 and WoW, they were like a 3d novel, it wa smy way or "reading", being immersed into a story, and played out in a 3d environment, however it just doesn't really feel that way anymore, until now. I plan to play GW2, SW:TOR, and Rift, all for different reasons and experiences.
Make your choice, its your money, your time, and your effort. if you want to be a static character, that is not a real part of a living breathing environment thats all on you.
Don't bash a company for trying to break the mold and give YOU the player something different to do with your time, go into the game with an open mind, expecting to have a different experience, I never thought ArenaNet would be the company to revolutionize the MMO Industry, but Hats off to them, I was not a fan of GW1, but GW2, *APPLAUSE* even if the game is moderately successful, thats exactly what will happen, a revolution.
You want to talk about easy? WoW...thats easy...what used to be a moderatly hardcore game at launch has turned into a kiddie fest, you want HARDCORE? Go back 10 years, EQ1, 200+ people raiding for 1 piece of loot, THAT WAS HARDCORE!
That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it but you might have mistakenly left out reality. And by that I mean take a look at anything in our modern culture that is considered the most "High End" material posessions. They're ALWAYS an Aesthetic or a piece of rare "Art". Guildwars embraced this at every level and made its focus about owning Scenery to the point it trumped customization which in a game where even your skills could be respec'd & switched on the fly, is really saying something.
This is a lot more realistic expectation and I agree with it.
*COUGH* ...sort by Rating... It, and its 2 other chapters are still in the top 20, above EQ and WoW I'll point out... on a site it has absolutely no business even being on b/c it was always categorized as a CoRPG or whatever, not a MMORPG. It sold 6 million. How many studios do you know that sold 6 million copies on their first release? If anything, I'd say their attempts to call its Sequel a true MMORPG without any of the old mechanics that define an MMORPG (forced grouping / healers / level equaliing dedication / gear equaling power) is the biggest thing deflating its Hype level b/c so many MMORPG players just don't want something that different. They just don't...
Hi Everyone,
It is like my first post here, I am owner of a Brazilian MMORPG Blog O Meu Game (omeugame.com.br). As a great enthusiast of GW2 it is wonderful that someone finally decided to left grid aside. While you are griding you lose too much that on a game where you could spend it in other actions inside it like raiding, pvping or what else.
In my site I have wrote and article about "How would be my MMO" and inside it I would even take away the level system to change it by a system where you have to complete tasks to unlock new skills and attributes to your character. Originally it is in Portuguese, but I used Google Translator to make an English Version available to you all. You can check it if you want.
B.Regards,
Sully
You need install Adobe Flash Player 9 by www.adobe.com.
Okay just one question......
Can we jump yet?
The maximum character level has been increased to 80 lvl, however the developers emphasize they wish "to avoid forcing players into the grind-based gameplay that too often accompanies a high level cap."
Yeah, It already can jump. Can't you see the trailers???
I hope they realize the amount of ambitious hype they are spreading by saying things like what's in the article. I obviously don't know because I haven't seen it, but I think it's a bad idea to say they are going to make it fun for everyone from moment-to-moment. That's like saying they just discovered what everyone considers 'fun' and they're using this secret power to uncover the lost Atlantis of video games.
I have no doubt it will be a good game to a lot of people that liked the first. I just think it's hyping it way too much to say it's going to revolutionize the industry by overcoming the grindy feel of other MMOs. My guess is it will just feel less like an MMO and be classified as something in between genres kinda like the heavy instancing did to the first one. i.e. Multiplayer action RPG instead, but we'll see soon enough. Either way, I'm going to buy it and play it so don't think I'm hating on it. I'm just not a fan of too much hype pre-release. I think that does more harm then good.
I'm also a big fan of games with a grind - not even being sarcastic lol. Ultima Online and Lineage 2 are probably my favorite MMOs so far from the industry - both total grinds with very minimum distraction or quests. As an earlier poster said, it's a type of achievement to overcome it with patience and perseverance. Unlike that poster however, I'm not saying anyone that doesn't like that grind is impatient or lazy. It's only what I personally get from that type of difficulty that causes me to enjoy it, unlike other people's preferences or idea of a challenge. So if GW2 does away with that as a factor, I'm sure I'll stick with another MMO on the side like L2, Aion, UO, etc. that still offers a grind to overcome.
Gotta say, I have my doubts, but I do like their focus. If there's a trial, I just might pick this up.
It's GW there won't be a trial. The game doesn't have a subscription fee so the free trial is meaningless. They probably will have at some point where players can invite friends to play for a period then if they like they can buy the game but I doubt they will have the typical 14day trial like P2P games.
Guild Wars Trilogy had a trial disc sold at most retailers. I think it's very likely they will do the same with GW2.
Edit: Actually, it might have been just Prophecies. I forget what version it was, but they definitely had a trial disc out for awhile.
I'm starting to think people ask this question to troll.
I just do not understand the people saying the having a short levelling curve is going to mean an easy game, or a game with no content. I feel like they either are not reading what ArenaNet is posting, they do not understand the information, or they have been brainwashed by years of games with massive grinds.
The challenge of a game lies in the difficulty of each individual encounter, not in how long it takes for you to reach the maximum level, or achieve some arbitrary goal of number of kills of <whatever>. The challenge lies in difficult strategies and complex encounters, not in trinity-style tank and spanks. The challenge lies in the attempt to achieve a difficult goal, not in being punished by failing with a loss of items or experience.
Perhaps this game is not for you, but if you think it is going to be easy because it does not have a massive level grind, the holy trinity of roles, or a harsh death penalty, I assert that you do not understand the meaning of the words difficult and easy.
As I mentioned in my post, people define challenge and fun differently. You're falling in to the common mistake of thinking everyone should have the same definition, otherwise people that don't agree with your idea of fun or challenging must not understand the correct definition. Knowing the meaning of the words has nothing to do with it. Knowing what those words mean to you is everything. Both sides of the coin can argue about it but it's really irrelevant because both sides can be right about what it means to them, and I happen to like a grind as a form of challenge. You don't. There is no argument there. Guild Wars 2 can still be a good game to both of us though, in different ways.
I have searched the forums and posts from Arena Net, and I can't seem to find the answer to this question anywhere:
How do the dynamic events respond to a grouping situation wherein not all of the group members have followed the same path during the game?
For instance, if I decide to help a village, and my friend decides not to help the same village, when we group, will the village be intact because I helped them, or destryed, because my group-mate didn't help them?
I said nothing about whether this game will be fun for others or not; that is up to them to decide when and if they play it (i.e., we should not be deciding now, whatever we think), but you do not get to decide what words mean.
Difficult already has a meaning, and it is not "time-consuming." "Time-consuming" already means that. "Difficult" means something else. That is why we have different words: to express different ideas. Words have meaning in languages, and you do not get to decide what they mean "to you." That is ridiculous. If that were the case, the inherent trappings of communication would fall apart. If that were the case, you would not be able to accurately determine what I am saying to you right now.
If you like for your games to be time-consuming that is fine. This game may not be for you. But do not make the mistake of equating that with difficult. For example, I could (in theory, not practice) design a game in which you have to kill 1,000,000,000,000 mobs to ready max level. And each of these mobs would require only a small effort on your part, and unless you were fighting dozens at once, they would require no skill or effort on your part. The game I have just described would be time-consuming, but not difficult.
I am not saying this game will be difficult. That will be determined by the monsters in the world, and how hard they are to kill, among other things. What Anet has said is that it will not be time-consuming.
Please, if this does not appeal to you, say so, but do not use words to express ideas that those words do not actually express.
EDIT:
The point of this post is not to be confused with subjectivity. Difficult is a subjective concept, and therefore what I think is difficult, you may see as easy, and vice versa. That is not the same thing as misappropriating the meaning of the word.
I thought I remember reading somewhere that you can choose to port yourself to the leader of the group's current location, in their version of the world, but I might be confusing that with another MMO.
Yes, actually I do get to decide what words mean to me, just as you do. For example, do you think steak tastes good? Do you think going to watch a ballet is fun? Do you like to listen to pop music or rock? Certain words in any language are not defined by their dictionary description but by what an individual associates with that word, the same with 'challenging', 'difficult', 'easy', 'hard', 'fun', 'good' and dozens of other adjectives. My point still stands. Your definition of the words are not the same as everyone else's, and therefore a grind can be fun for me when it is not fun for you.
Time consuming is a factor of what I find fun - not a direct definition of what I find fun about grinding. For me, the fun is derived from different factors of grinding then your idea of it, which is just that it is time consuming and nothing else. That's obviously not the same for me because who would think time-consuming alone is fun? Maybe someone does, but I sure don't.
Other games make it take longer and longer to level because they want that subscription money. GW2 won't have a subscription so arenanet doesn't really care about the time it takes to level.
The event happens for everyone, so did someone have sucessfully help the village. That your friend have decided to help or not does'nt matter, it's wasn't a quest, he didn't fails something, he just didn't help.
The personal story decisions are decided purely by the leader, it does not affect or advance the personal story person whose grouping you, however the person who is helping you progress your personal story will gain rewards (like items unlocked in home instance and karma) that you do not. Think of it like the class story in swtor except all choices are decided by the leader.
The event system is completely different. Just because you choose to help the village doesn't mean you'll actually save it. It depends completely on whether you actually defeat the enemy or not. It's all real time there is no quest to gain it's simply you see a village burning you help and get rewarded. If your friend decides to just stand there they get no rewards. Hope that clears things up for you
There are a lot of people that think everything is relative in the mind's eye. There are entire religions and philosophies devoted to that concept, so your idea of 'the trappings of communication' falling apart because of people having different definitions is inaccurate. It's only our conditioning towards a certain word being what it is that drops.
You were continuing to argue that a grind does not make something challenging. I think it does. An element of grind in an MMO not only makes that a particular challenge to me, but it also makes it fun for me. I don't find it any more "time-consuming" than what other people do for fun, like watching movies or reading books. Technically, everything is time-consuming and that's completely irrelevant to what is fun. There is no arguing what I find fun or challenging, yet you persist in saying that a grind is something else. You're not seeing the fact that these words are defined by an individual - not a dictionary. I also can still find fun in GW2 for different reasons then you do.
Seems like I got one for GW1 when TR went under. Either way, a time limited trial makes perfect sense in this digital download world...
There seems to be a LOT of confusion, so I will just say this: Dynamic events will occur in REAL TIME in a PERSISTANT WORLD. A destroyed village will be destroyed for EVERY SINGLE PERSON THE SERVER. Dynamic events can have one person participating, or several hundred. The number of enemies will increase/be buffed as the number of players participating increases. If only one person is present at a village for example, only a few centaur will attack. If one hundred people are there, a massive group of powerful centaurs will attack.
One thing I know for a fact that even if GW2 will be F2P, players are willing to fork up the cash that most of the time they are spending more than what they pay in a month for P2P game. That's why GW1 is still running and players are still playing.
But the great thing about this business design is that those who don't have the extra cash aren't left behind since all purchaseable items don’t affect the game play at all, unlike other MMOs with micro-payments, the items they sell sometimes breaks the gameplay.
I'm personally holding off from buying new games and reserving all my cash for GW2. And yes, I do have a stash that is solely reserved for GW2. And no I didn't buy SC2 nor planning to but the next WoW expansion or any other games before GW2 or even afterwards.
I just never had seen such commitments from the developer and their ability to actually deliver.
I can't wait.
I'm really happy with Guild Wars2. All the design choices make me want to explore and experience the game because they are new. These new desicions whether they will or will not work will get me to buy the game just out of curiousity to see what it is like.
Also another huge thing for me is the fact it is B2P. The amount of work and stuff going into this game when I'm only going to have to pay for it once ever just really does it for me. I think I'm getting a good game for my buck.
/facepalm
Apparently that went waaaaay over your head. No shit a single player game doesnt = MMO. The point is, none of those things (death penalty, healing, etc) = difficulty in a game (regardless of type of game).
Problem is you're confusing 2 completely different things. Death penalty is a form of punishment for dying (obviously) but has no direct correlation to the actual difficulty of the gameplay itself. You automatically assume that no death penalty = easy mode game, without having any clue whatsoever how easy/difficult fighting regular mobs is, or bosses, or how easily you can die, etc.
Youre also making the very common mistake that tons of other people are making and trying to take 1 feature that they are going with in GW2, trying to take it out of GW2 and replace it with whatever other game you play / have played (perhaps WoW?) and basically saying "Well if that were in X game, it would make it easy, or it wouldnt work right, so that must mean it's exactly the same for GW2!".
Okay, I'm not sure if quoting yourself is against the rules, but I feel like this is an important piece of information that will probably go unseen due to the new page. if this is against the rules, sorry, but there is an astounding amount of misinformation in this thread.
Same here. I'm really looking forward to it, not necessarily because the content I see looks pretty cool, but also because of their design philosophy and the amount of content you get with every purchase from them. I like the B2P approach a lot, and think they will always have a great following because of that.
No I just want to know =_=
BobTheTank v BTT!
No seriously, a good point is worth reiterating.
But the Dynamic Events is actually very obfuscating. The wording is tending towards "buzz" words and actually a proper diagram would illustrate what a lot of words has failed to do. It is confusing and alluring at the same time.
Responding to your info, I was still under the impression that a village DE would be on a reset albeit a longer one? And yes it is scalable and it does seemt to have a Tree Diagram of chains of quests linked together with a -/+ both leading to another branch in the chain and maybe a web with another tree...
Whatever you say, it is still boring. That's a huge difference between fun game content and spreading butter too thinly on the bread.
jump, roll, swim.
Climbing still no info. ; )
That's a very common misconception ive seen regarding the nature of DES. The village won't just auto reset (like a PQ in WAR) sometime after the event is over. There are various factors which could possibly cause that specific event to never even occur again. Events can be triggered in various ways such as a player activating a particular item in the right area (such as a hidden magical orb in a cave), by players killing certain types of enemies or not killing them (allowing them to build a massive army over time), various random things (such as an example they used of a storm moving into an area and it randomly spawning lightning elementals, and if the proper amount spawn/survive a sort of elemental army will form and trigger events).
So the village being under attack may have only been allowed to happen due to players not killing centaurs in the area. But if after you save the village players continue killing enough centaurs in the area to keep their numbers down, you may very well never see that village come under attack again by those centaurs, or perhaps in a completely different way (such as rather than an army, you have 1 or a few extremely powerful ones causing problems in the area, or perhaps the centaurs joining up with other enemies, or maybe the centaurs will go to war with another group of enemies and the village is caught in the crossfire, etc).
The grind can get old at times but it does serve the purpose of helping you learn your class. I have been in several ICC WOW runs where someone just bought their lvl 80 off Ebay and can't play worth a crap and gets everyone killed. It also makes you feel a little more unique when you have lvl capped your toon along with his professions and got all the top end gear, I know that some lazy butt can't just roll a toon and have everything I have achieved through questing, collecting, etc... I think Guild Wars provides a great in between for those that want a little more depth then say a "Call of Duty" but not so much as FFXI. To each his own :D
Oh hey guys, I hear GW2 will cure cancer as well!
The best thing i can say about this game is that it will keep all the "gimme gimme gimme, now now now" assclowns out of our worthwhile mmo's.
GW2 is basically turning into an overglorified F2P game, community? who cares about that. Sense of acheivement? pointless, who needs that.
Honestly, they shouldnt even be allowed to advertise this game as an RPG. Its basically a fantasy action game. Might as well be playing Counter Strike in fantasy form and 3rd person. They should call it a MMOWOT, Massively Multiplayer Online Waste of Time.
Yet another troll who obviously hasn't read (or is simpkly unable to comprehend) any of the in depth articles about the features in GW2.
What exactly have they done to remove "community"?
How have they removed sense of achievement? Yes they have changed and improved (not removed) level grind, but level is far from the only for of achievement. In nearly ANY game, level is the least of achievements (except for hardcore asian grinders). Level usually means little, everyone egts there eventually, and in many cases so easily that it doesnt even feel like an achievement. But there ar eother things that do require lots of time and work to achieve such as gear, titles, skills, etc. I guess if you equate level with "achieving" anything, then great that you're staying out of the game, because you'll likely just be a hindrance to the rest of your server in PvP.
Do you even know wtf an RPG is? How is it an action game? It's got all the makings of pretty much any rpg ever made, both MMO and Single player, only they removed what fro some retarded reason has become the standard tank and spank mechanics that rule MMOs now. Is that your issue? They removed boring outdated and nonsensical feature slike tank & spank, and suddenly its not an RPG? Since hwen has any of that ever defined what an RPG is? RPG = Role Playing Game. Lets see.... detailed character creation system including choosing your background before entering the world, great story featured in the Personal Story portion of the game, Personality system which impacts how the world reacts to you, classes like most other RPGs, skill systems, etc, etc, etc..... wow you sure hit the nail on the head, its definitely not an RPG.
Let me guess.... never played GW1? Perhaps obsessed with WoW or one of its various clones? Making the mistake of trying to take X feature from Guild Wars 2 and insert it into WoW or whichever game and say "Well that feature sucks in WoW, so it must suck in GW2 too!" Yeah good luck with that faile dlogic, both in MMOs and in real life... learn not to take things out of context and put them in places where they dont belong.
wow someone overreakting much? god forbid someone tries to make a fun game without grinding. I guess all those nice offline rpg's aren't really rpgs b/c they don't have grind. Some people are so shortsighted it's sad.
No grind ... where have i heard that before ...
Owyea every other mmorpg that came out.
Hyping a game doesn't make a game better. It just blurs your reality, making it better than what it actually is. Imo just wait and see.
No such thing as no grind.
No matter how well the devs sugar coat it and no matter how much the fanboys of X game try and say there is no grind.
Grind: to perform a repetitive task in a role playing game in order to increase one's character's stature.
Let's see... no ridiculous increase in amount of time to level (requiring you to perform repetetive tasks over and over just to gain a level), instead w ehave a system where every level will take basically the same amount of time to move up. And the Dynamic Event System causing the world to constantly change, and allowing you to do different things every day in the same areas and experience entirely new things (rathe rthan the same static world 100% of the time, and all you can ever do is go do the same quest over and over or kill the same exact mob in the same exact place over and over).
Yep, that sure sounds like a grind to me....
And incase it was somehow missed, yes that last line was sarcastic.
Typical fanboy head(no offence), when they hear something appealing they fall head over heels.
You're purely associating "grind" and increasing your characters "stature" to combat level and nothing else.
I can't stand when people throw the "I want it the easy way" attitude around like spoilt brats. Bloody hell.
G'night.
Edit - The dude above pointed out something I missed :(
How does grind = challenge?
Perhaps it's the challenge of getting through the boredom?
Perhaps you completely missed the entire thing that this article was about.... LEVEL GRIND. Perhaps you also missed the multiple articles about things like the removal of grinding/farming for skills and stuff, since with the Traits system, there will be sort of like a quest related to obtaining many of the traits, and in some cases something as simple as talking to the right NPC. There will be no grinding a skill, or farming the same mob repeatedly hoping it drops the skill youre looking for or whatever.
Nice attempt at insightful judgement based on let's see.... nothing... about my attitude. I dont have any issue with a MEANINGFUL grind, but too many games simply put in a fake grind that doesnt serve any real purpose other than to keep you playing and paying longer. Since GW doesn't have a sub, ther eis no real incentive for them to want to keep you busy for months and months grinding away and paying them that sub. Perhaps you enjoy doing the same exact thing over and over and over and over and over and over for months on end in order to play your games, but i would much rather actually, you know enjoy the game and have fun without worrying about "Oh noes I have to sit in this spot for 200 more hours because its the only place that gives me good enough XP". I have enough other games to play that give me that grind, and am currently playing one now.
As far as what he pointed out... that has nothing to do with "grind". The gaining of levels themselves is not what defines the grind, it is the means of getting there. If youre gaining levels through exploring new content, quests, going new places, fighting new things, etc =/= grind. Having to keep kiling the same thing, repeat the same exact quest over and over again = grind. That's what Arenanet is attempting to avoid, the need to repeat much of anything, and to have a new experience every time you log into the game by causing the world to change, even when youre not there to see it change.
Similar to you, i cant stand when people act like spoiled little brats, though for me it's because theyre unable to comprehend the difference between 2 things. Grind does not = challenge. Grind = extensive amount of tiem spent doing repetetive tasks, and has absolutely no correlation to how difficult that task is. Grind could be killing thousands of mobs that you 1 shot (meaning it is extremely easy to do), or it could be killing 100 enemies that it takes you 10 shots to kill. Its about repetition. Removal of grind does not = easy game. You have no idea how difficult the gameplay itself, as well as completing anything in order to level will be. As ive said time and time again to others with your attitude... stop trying to take features out of context by taking X from GW2, then insert it into ANY other game and say "well thats how it would be in this game, so that must be how it is i GW2!". It doesnt work like that. GW2 is its own game, with its own features, playstyle, story, and way of doing things. The sooner you understand that fact, the sooner you'll stop making ridiculous assumptions about how "easy" the game will be.
I like challenges. I don't like grinds. Fighting a good opponent in pvp or pve can be a challenge. I certainly don't think those are grinds. I remember in Lineage 2 i had to fight monster after monster, same thing over and over again to level my character. It was grind, it certainly wasn't challenging or even engaging. It was tedium. All it is there for is to keep my subscription because it gives me the illusion that I'm progressing my character. There are other ways to make "challenges" and certainly more ways to make engaging gameplay. A grind is a developers lazy and easy way out of making a game.
>>
At the same time, many of us, including myself, understand the necessary evil that is the leveling treadmill; it keeps people playing, but ultimately it’s pretty arbitrary.
<<
Wait, what? Why would I need to level in order to keep enjoying and playing a game? Unless the entire game's content was pretty much the same thing, just raised in difficulty so that I'd have to hit some imaginary accumulation of something to "raise" my stats so I could fight it effectively.
O wait, that's exactly what those cheap@sses have been doing - recycling the exact same thing you do level after level and just renaming, recoloring or otherwise altering its appearance so you are fooled into thinking you've had new content. Jerks.
Good thing their reign of mcmmos treadmills is just about over. Go Arenanet! Go Bioware! Go Netdevil! Go Reakktor! Go Func- Ragnar Tørnquist and the rest of the team! I can't wait to start having FUN in MMOs again.
But only the cancer that's been choking the MMO industry. But hey, I'll take it :D
So your alternative would be to have some centaurs milling about waiting for us to kill them? Perhaps there would be someone with ! over their head that told us to kill 10 of them? Yes it is all about killing the enemy but the way the events are it will be a bit more engaging and interesting. To kill 10 rats (or centaurs) that was given to us by a static npc is about as appealing as a root canal. I'd rather play minesweeper than go through that type of questing again. The event system is supposed to make it more interesting, more meaningful. Will it work? Well we will find out, at least they are trying something different.
Im not conveniently doing anything, it seems youre trying to twist what i am saying into something to conveniently fit youre argument, but unfortunately for you, you fail at it.
Typical MMO: Gain 1 level killing the same mobs for 5 hours. Then spend 10 hours to gain 1 level again killing mobs that give the same amount of XP.
Guild Wars 2: IF you choose to "grind" (which is PERFORMING A REPETETIVE TASK) by killing mobs over and over, if it takes you 5 hours to do it once, it will take you 5 hours to do it again.
So that reduces the need to grind to level, however as i said thats only part of it. The rest of it comes into play with the Dynamic Event System causing the world to change and the removal of typical quests. Sure, you can choos eon your own to go ahead and just grind mobs all day every day, but that is not the goal with their design. Most other games though, you are limited to how much you can gain through any other means except grinding.
For example, i play RFO as well. You get 1 quest per level, and at mid-high levels youre lucky to get mor ethan 5% from completing it IF you can even manage to complete it at your current level. 99% of the XP gain is done through sitting in known XPing/Farming spots for hours and hours pulling and killing the same mob over and over and over again. THAT is a grind. Even if it took me 5 hours per level to gain each level, with no increase in time required to level, it is still a grind because i have no choice but to kill the same stuff over and over again, i have no other means of gaining xp.
It is a grind, if max level was the only thing about the game. Games like WoW have made games irrelevant before the level cap.
Really my one real gripe about GW2 was their decision to include levels at all. Levels, like the "holy trinity", is an outdated mechanic. A relic from the origins of dungeons and dragons.
Ill try to explaint his 1 more time....
Grind = performing a repetetive task
Yes i used the example of sitting in 1 spot, but that is just 1 example. There are other examples as well, as such as repetetive kill 10 Rats quests, or whatever. They are simply examples.. perhaps youve heard the term before? Regardless of what example i use, the definition is still the same.
You are selectively pointing out things i have said, once again, to suit your own argument. I said the amount of time is only a part of grinding. While they are on track with evening out the time it takes to level, it is not the entire thing. There are various things they are doing in the game which will reduce the need to grind. By definition, the amount of time is irrelevant on its own, it is the repeating of the same task that matters. Do you not understand the difference between time and task or something?
If it takes me 1 month to gain a level, but i am doing new things, travelling to new places, performing new tasks most of that time, then it is not a grind. IF it only takes me an hour to level, but i spend that entire time running Kill 10 rats quests, farming mobs in 1 spot, or whatever the particular task is, that is a grind.
I absolutely love this thread. Its filled with people that accuse us (us being the people that take enjoyment out of what they refer to as "grinds") of "not understanding", when the reality is we understand just fine. We just don't like this style of play, and we're tired of the GW2 fanboi crowd constantly bitching about the games we like and and accusing our play style of being inferior and "not fun".
Personally, i am exceedingly happy this game is coming out, because all the people who bitch about grinding, and having to level, and ZOMG why cant i create an alt at max level, i dont want to play through the content again, waaaahh waaaaahhh, will finally have "their" game to play, which means they won't be playing "our" games and thus neither party will have to listen to each other. In the end we'll all be happier.
Yet another post full of ignorance. Answer a few questions for me since you seem to be so all knowing...
How long will it take to gain eac level in GW2?
How long will it take to reach level cap?
How long will it take to gain all of the Traits? Titles? Whatever else they add in for achievements?
How long will it take to kill each mob?
How hard will it be to survive and be able to kill anything in the first place?
How diificult will it be to complete Events and missions?
How much of a reward will you get for each of those?
Let me guess.... No answer to ANY of those?
Figure out the answers to those questions and then come back and whine about how easy anything is, and about playing alts, and about creating characters at max level. As I and others have said, there is a difference between easy repetetive grindy gamplay, and an actual challenge in gameplay.
I find it hilarious too that you equate grinding with "content". Really? Do you not realize that if whatever game you are playing had actual content, as in story, important quests, various things to do... you wouldnt NEED to grind in the first place. The fact that what you are playing requires you to grind (as in doing the same thing over and over) is a sign that tghere isn't enough content in the first place, and so to give you the illusion of having something to do they make you have to kill 786896438645 mobs to level, or run the same kill 10 rats quest 9474534 times, as opposed to actually moving forward to bigger and better things.
I agree. I don't expect the dynamic events to be really all that different than just more engaging quests, but if that's what they are then I feel we will be better off for it.
The only big hanging point for me is the dynamic event system. They show the centaurs running down and taking out the support beams for the pipes. Ok great. So....what happens after? We defeat the raiding party and then do we need to partake in another branch of the event to repair the supports. Do the centaurs ever come back and attack again? If so, when/how?
In the manifesto the devs state that "the player effects things in a very permenant way" and also, "cause and effect, a single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events".
Not to get look too deeply, but what does that mean exactly? It sounds like events are a once in a lifetime thing, and that the outcomes are permanent. I want to know if the events repeat themselves. Are we going to be able to trigger them in a static way? Also, does the bridge that gets blown up in the trailer get rebuilt, or is everyone going to have to go around forever?
I am not trying to be overly critical of what was being said, because I also understand that they are trying to sell their game. However, I also would appreciate plain words, and see exactly what all of this means, because there seems to be some conflicting information between the manifesto and what has been said about the events in the past.
I know it's hard to believe because of the open venom on these forums, but we're all part of the same commnity. There is no need to protect us from them, regardless of which camp you fall into with the majority probably in the middle some place. I think if you approach games with an US vs THEM mentality and trying to erect a wall so you don't have to listen to anyone who doesn't pat yourself on the back and tell you how golden your opnion is, you're doing yourself and the community a disservice.
And before you get all agitated with me and acuse me of one kind of fan over another, I've been playing MMORPGs for awhile now, and though it was not my first game, I thought EQ was great and certainly had some grind to it.
Grind to each person is interpreted differently. Context again can alter what people interperet grind to mean.
Ok so most people equate grinding to repeat killing monsters / mobs for xp to level. But what about quest grinding. Its what turned me off about LotRO was the sheer amounts of quests. After a while you stop reading the text and just follow the quest markers because the content becomes irrelevant.
To those that say "I never had to grind mobs to level" I say this. I bet you had to do a ton of quests though and I bet those quests in 95% of cases had you killing enemies by the truckload. Its the same mutton dressed up as lamb.
Developers are thinly disguising "Content" as quests / grind. I started to feel deeply disconnected to LotRO because of this reason. Yes there were the Epic quests that drove the story but for most of it you had to "Grind Quests" just to level up to get to the next epic quest at a high enough level.
New zones just become quest grind portals. Dialogue becomes forgotten because you are just going through the motions.
I really would like to have become more immersed in LotRO. My sub doesn't expire for months but I just can't bring myself to endure the hundreds of hours to grind / level quests on my primary and alts. Then I am facing the prospect on grinding for the better gear or grinding the gold to buy it...
I am not going to go as far as say that GW2 won't have a grind mechanic because I think it will. I think it will be directly related to prestige or achievements though. NOT a requirement to reach leter game content.
Guild Wars promises to give me what I have been looking for. No wall of text just a "Help me we are under attack". You will have to listen and actually become immersed in the world to become part of it. Early testing in GW2 showed that testers were missing events because the were ignoring cries for help. This was a direct result of the conditioning that is a result of the quest grind mechanics and pre-conceived expectations of what "should" be happening.
I think the launch will be rocky in that there will be capacity issues. Few people after PAX and Gamescon will not know about this.
Arenanet have made some pretty big claims about GW2 being that they are already part of the game. They have staked the future of there company on GW2 with such an ambitious break from the accepted stereotype of the MMO.
Mike O'Brien has made a really through down the gauntlet with his the new manifesto stating "That all sounds great in theory, but I’ll believe it when I see it.” Well, get ready, because we’ve talked the talk, and now we’re going to walk the walk."
That is a gutsy statement to make and I think he can back it up.
I think that at Gamescon, Arenanet will "Walk on Water"
Hail to the King?
I really hope you're right about the last few parts of your post, and i wish Arenanet the best with this endeavor and hope everything works out perfectly. See one common misconception, usually made by people who for whatever reason just blindly hate the game, is that htose of us whoa re excited about the game are simply "Guild wars / Arenanet fanbois", but hell i had no interest in eithe runtil a few months ago when they started really releasing info on GW2. Its not so much that we are excited about just the game itself, but all the change they are promising to bring to the genere after so much stale / cloned garbage.
IF they can manage to pull through with everything working out at even like 80-90% of what they promise (some issues here and there, stuff that can be mended/adjusted, but not quite perfect), it really will revolutionize the genre. No im not saying every game is going to copy it like what happened with WoW, or even that it will be an immediate shift in the genre. Only that some of the other big name companies ove rthe next few years will look at it and say "Hey, you know what. We dont need to follow the WoW formula to be succesful, Arenanet took some big chances and look how well they did". The result will be mor evariety, more willingness to test untried formulas and mechanics rather than the trend of "we have to do exactly what everyone else has been doing or nobody will want to play our game".
Same here, news coming out of GW2 late in the game is getting me very interested in the game, as opposed to some other game. I've never played the original Guild Wars and had only a minor interest in trying it years later which I never got around to. No fangirl here, but still interested... not quite excited but strongly interested.
I know much more gamers who spent years playing the same simple but fun FPS/RTS games when those who spent more then few months playing todays MMORPGs. I played myself games like CS, DoD, CoD for years each. I recently play like a maniac: Battlefield: BC2. I have spent 300 hours playing BC2 already and guess what ? I have enjoyed every minute of it. The game itself has less content then any MMORPG, but it is 1000 times more fun then any grinder on the market. Developers and publishers of MMORPGs are blind.
Amazing...somebody understands that the easiest way to make people to do what you want in your game is actually make it profitable for them.
It is even more extraordinary that somebody understands that you can create a fun game with huge replayability value without what is seen as a standard in MMORPGs: linear level, gear grind ( behind the veil of 10000 quests who no-one bothers to even try to read ). You sir won my respect.
It's not by any means a backwater way of thinking. I cant believe that you're, at least appearing to, say that Anet shouldnt in part create a game for people that want their "ego stroked". There are literally dozens of games out there that the majority of people play to prove that they are "better" than other people. (example being the like 12million people who reg. play CoD:MW2 or any game with a medium to heavy focus on PvP)Dont get me wrong, i love to RP. I love to explore lands and to look for whats behind the characters. I always try and develop a charcter that has their own personality and quirks. I nearly always give my character a back story.
BUT (and a huge but here) medium to hardcore RP'ers are in the minority. Games that dont have any PvP are in the minority, games that dont have "awesome" loot are, as far as my experience is concerned, non-existant. People want recognition for their time that can be phsyicallly shown - which doesnt nesc. mean to show off.
GW1 had titles which people would strive for and show off along with what came with going for them. I dont expect GW2 will be any different. If Anet are clever enough they will find a way that will please all types of people, but ultimatey there will people some who will end up dissapointed.
To say that my type of thinking was "backwater" then to go on and be so niave/narrow-minded is just obtuse.
Interesting that the Dungeons and Dragons players here forgot to mention that when one roleplays in tabletop fashion or any non-video game sense, its always done in First Person perspective of the character. You imagine yourself in that world and what you would do to get through a story or situation. This is the heart of roleplaying...and presenting a situation and how characters solve them is how people go to love TV Shows and Movies out there. ^_^
Character Experience Levels do not represent length of time. Length of time has always been represented by a "Show" of Experience AND ability. This is a problem in MMORPGs because once a point is reached in the game, a group is needed to pretty much tackle anything.
Experience in Guild Wars I was all about your abilities with each character profession along with skills in many areas as well as Knowledge of the world itself and its items and players. In first Person Shooters....One sees the difference in skill between a player who has played for 6 months and one who has played for several years.
One of the shooters I've played, I have so for 6 years. Another for 8 years....I can leave for six months, return and wipe out 90% of the population...and then be thankful the players who wipe me out are those who have skill and abilities. Always great to see players who are good :)
The thing to MMORPGs is that once you reach the Level Cap and have top equipment, you can leave for six months to even a year....and unless the game goes through a rebalance or a new expansion comes out...Every enemy will still die in the very same way and in the same pattern. The focus to 99% of MMORPGs is about how YOU and Your party KILLS an enemy and gets equipment to KILL the next enemy.....It does not have much to do with any real roleplaying.
I mention real roleplaying because when I went through the RP groups OFFLINE in the real world...Most of us enjoyed Guild Wars due to how wide one can play a character in that game without having to spend hours "GRINDING" to reach a point when the game becomes "PLAYABLE." I used to play different P2P and F2P games and some I can give an honor mention to, but as far as things go...
When I returned to the world of tabletop roleplaying, I found MMORPGs to be dull and boring and I managed to find people who felt the same way and what we did was we got the books to Dungeons and Dragons downloaded, along with a few webcams setup and we do Online Internet Sessions on top of my OFFLINE sessions...
Everytime I return to playing MMORPGs what I find the best in them are Crafting Systems, Exploration and Environments but unfortunately there isn't much Interraction outside the wall of text one gets for a quest. All of that gets limited by many factors.
I like that Guild Wars II exists and I give them credit for being brave enough to try something closer to actual roleplaying and less closer to powergaming.
People talk about being "HardCore" but MMORPGs are not really "roleplaying" since nothing leads to actually roleplay and most of the time we spend killing things to get stronger. In actual roleplaying game if you take you and all your friends to KILL one Goblin to get that 1 EXP you need to Level up, you won't get it..:)
My name for MMORPG as a Genre on what it has become is TAG :) TAG being short for Turn-Based Adventure Games. Which of course includes all the killing, the large world and exploration and no real need to do any real problem solving and you can brute force everything and get limited through an attribute system.
HardCore TAG players exist, but personally from what I've seen in Internet RP Sessions, Offline RP sessions (Web Cams + Acting is nice) Roleplaying is not for everyone, but for those who enjoy it.....and love it, they will have to search elsewhere. Specially when people deal with some of the crazy things I've come up...I always write stories to go into being MATURE, ABSTRACT and even provocative.
A person can earn a title in Runes of Magic or Guild Wars I...It just really satisfies the player. Its still an illusion.....They worked for something. They got something, but it did not increase the player's interraction with the world on a decent scale.
As long as they make these MMORPGs with rating like E for everyone or 13+, the stories are never going to be as GOOD as actually roleplaying in a group...where you can introduce heavier, more provocative storytelling.
The difference between a TAG gamer and a real Roleplayer is that TAGs are all about how high you can make your character go spending 1000s of hours to raise characters to make yourself feel good for accomplishing something. True Roleplayers care most about the story and how it flows...and don't require 1000s of hours to be satisfied. They spend their time developing their characters and the good roleplayers are not out to make super characters.
Of course, to each their own. ^_^ If you love your game enough to play it, go ahead. If you wish to attack me because of my Genre Declaration, you don't see people calling Street Fighter Alpha III a Roleplaying Game because it has an EXP System attached, nor do you see people calling Command and Conquer an RPG because units can "get experience and level" nor do we call Shooters RPGs because we as players get "experience" and become stronger and better players each time we play...
Don't be tricked by the illusion of being told something is an RPG simply because an Attribute and EXP system is introduced to a character. ^^ Good luck everyone :)
It might be against the rules to quote your own, so I'll quote it instead. :)
I'm interested to see how this mechanic is recieved. It sounds pretty similar to the bases in Tabula Rasa, which were fun, but the whole concept ended up largely ignored by the populace; they'd just move on to a different base. Maybe the variety in the scenarios will better keep folks' interest.
Been saying this since the first mmo i ever played around a decade ago. Level grind = stupid. To make the game fun, gamble items on pvp.
Never said grind = challenge.
I'll give you a word as to what I meant and you can figure the rest out yourself >
Effort.
As ive said time and time again to others with your attitude... stop trying to take features out of context by taking X from GW2, then insert it into ANY other game and say "well thats how it would be in this game, so that must be how it is i GW2!"
Don't be silly, I haven't done that at all.
"You have no idea how difficult the gameplay itself, as well as completing anything in order to level will be."
And you do, right? I haven't made any judgement on how things in GW2 will infact be played out, funnily enough, you have. I made a single, truthful comment.
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Every time to mention "repetitive" you always mention "time", as much as you're throwing it about, your problem isn't infact the "repetitiveness" of killing a mob over and over(which you probably have in every single other genre out there) it's the time you spend doing it.
And through what you have said you seem to be throwing the "I WANT IT NOW" mentality around, though, that's from a random 3 page observation.
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Because you read X in multiple articles of what the devs had said, it must be true, right? Anybody esle who thinks the opposite or inbetween is classed as ignorant, amirite?
"you'll stop making ridiculous assumptions about how "easy" the game will be."
I haven't even done such a thing.
I also don't run around screaming out things on the lines of
"they WILL have this THAT way"
"they WILL do THIS THAT way"
"they have THIS so it WILL be done THIS way(or the say the said)"
"they have THIS THAT way, so now THAT is non-exsistent"
with my only fall back being, "the developers said so on paper/him/her/it".
G'afternoon.
BTW for an indicator of the challenge of the game Martin posted on GW2G his encounter with The Shatterer. He described his encounter as very painful and full of death. Players will be able to encounter The Shatterer at Gamescom...if they want to :P
People, understand that MMORPGs are all about the experience and the immersive qualities that make you keep coming back. That has been lost in most MMOs today. They do make you grind so you feel like you're actually doing something. If that's your style than fine.
This game will have some form of grind. But it won't be something you HAVE to do to feel like you're getting your money's worth. They're trying to create an awesome experience that will be memorable. They're trying to fill it with content that will make you feel like you're progressing. That's this game's main selling point. It's not about the grind, it's about a memorable creative experience. And if Arena Net is bringing that back, then by all means please take your time to perfect it.
Guild Wars is just as challenging as other MMOs. The difference between them? There's more GW offers because the content is so expansive. Grinding is not a big part of the game. Not even 5% of it. That doesn't mean it's easier than others. That just means other games have less content and you have to dedicate more of your time to do less memorable things than in GW. I don't hate WoW. I just disagree with it's gameplay mechanics and the overall presentation. I have no problems with people who play it. If you like to waste your time, that's up to you. And no I don't mean that in a snarky way. I'm completely serious. Cause that's what a grind is. A waste of time.
I'm mostly a console gamer. And I never did get into MMORPGs because they were boring. And yes, I did try out plenty of them. However, Guild Wars was quite a surprise to me. I did spend quite a lot of time playing it. And I had a blast. Arena Net definitely has the passion to follow through on what they're saying. Here's hoping they pull it off.
Grind = keeping you playing... I mean PAYING your monthly fee's
GW2 = no grinding... because there is NO PAYING monthly fees.
I understand people like to read all the quest stuff, and get deep into the games lore/etc... But would you want to read about it or be in the middle of it? The whole "go kill 10 rats" thing is WAY overdone... and then doing it over and over and over... just to keep you playing and PAYING is a dead model. GW2 (if they fully pull off the full dynamic element) you will be in the middle of the fights, and stopping thing, not sitting there reading and reading about rats.
I for one am looking forward to GW2, will be watching the info as they start spilling the actual details to the game prior to launch.
And no, I dislike games that I HAVE to spend 8 hours a day grinding/questing just to keep up with some of the others. I'm sorry, 8 hours a day at work is enough "work" for me. Replacing my keyboard every few months from punding the same 3-4 keys over and over again, it's not worth it... sorry.
Oh how i wish this game came out already. I CANT WAIT ANY LONGER!!
Refreshing how GW 2 looks at leveling. Look forward to its release!
No Grind? Its impossible. If i need to repeat a dungeons 99999999 times, to get money and more money, or maybe special loots from there to sell... this is grind too. How they will do this? Put a wall where i cannot enter? If i do 3 times that dungeon, the wall appear and i cannot enter there anymore. Will be this? lets see.
Like elite missions... Deep, or maybe... ohhh the infinite grind to get tormented itens, the so wanted Armbrace... UW... all the great infinite grind... and yes im a fan from GW, i played only GW last 5 years. I have 4 accounts, all full of great things.... all with this grind... how they will put an end in this??? i think NEVER.
I remember my first days playing EQ. I remember walking outside of my home city and immediatly seeing another player getting attacked by a bat or bear or something. Seeing a fellow hero being assulted, I decided to join in. AT THAT TIME we both were ok with this because neither of us even imagined that the mechanics would make it so only one of us received any experience from the encounter. MMO's were new, not a lot of people had a grasp on the way the mechanics really worked. And because of that we all imagined that they worked "correctly", the way we had all dreamed persistent 3D worlds would.
I remember walking into Crushbone and hearing someone shout "Dvinn" and seeing 30+ newbs rush in and try to take down a mob 10 levels higher than the highest player there. We all figured, "yeah he is 10 levels higher but there are 30 of us!". We didn't yet know that the mechanics of the game made it practically impossible for us to do anything but fail to the last man.
Think of all the things that you need to teach a completely new player when they play this genre for the first time. Things like:
"Your not helping him, your actually stealing his kills and making it harder for him".
"You need to join togeather in a group for you to share the experience for that kill".
"you actually have to be the first player to hit that mob to get credit for it for your quest."
"No she didn't kill all of the wolves, they will respawn again in a few minutes"
"I can't join your group because I am too high level and you won't get any experience."
"You can't even touch a mob that is 10 levels higher than you no matter how many of you there are."
"Don't worry the guard won't attack you unless you're very close, all of your opponents in this game have really bad vision."
"No you can't hide in the Inn's basement, once a mob has aggro on you they can see you through walls, around mountains and behind trees."
"you can't drink because your in 'combat mode', which means there is a mob out there with you on its aggro list"
This is what is unintuitive and immersion breaking for MMOs. And thats just the short list. The mechanics "should", barring technical limitations, try and emulate our real world in some reasonable fashion.
The MMO playerbase have grown so accustom to these limitations that we see them as constants in the MMO world. They are not. Some of them may be neccessary for technical reasons but developers should "always" question them with every new iteration.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
Great post! This is what impresses me most about ArenaNet's blogs etc so far: Checking their assumptions.
The great thing is that they probably will pull of close to everything they're talking about if not all of it. This game didn't just pop up over night. All this stuff they're talking about exists in the game right now. It's in alpha stage right now. That's why the manifesto is so late instead of in the beginning of production. AN wanted to make sure they could do what they imagined.
While they won't get rid of grind, they will be getting rid of the NEED to grind. You won't need to any more. Of course, if you want to go out and grind, that's up to you. They can't really stop that kind of player decision. But it won't be a need anymore. Thank goodness.
The only thing I disagree with in your post really is this idea the GW2 gets it. We've heard companies claim they get it before, and then deliver the same thing over and over again. I don't hate enough of these problem areas in MMOs to actually exit the genre, so it's not an automatic disqualification for me for a game to follow similiar paths as those before them making some nice tweaks or just adding flavor. GW2 might actually live up to it's promises; I don't know yet. Because of past performances from other companies claiming similiar things, I just don't buy it... yet. I am eager to be proven wrong however.
There's a good chance that everything they've talked about is in fact in the game itself. Again as I said, this game didn't just pop up over night. It's been around for a while. Just no information has been released for it until recently and for good reason. ANet wouldn't just come out with info years after development just to say things that aren't true. They're not talking about what they want to do. They're talking about what they're doing.
I'd say that's the difference between this game and others. You have a right to be cautious. We all do. But chances of ANet lying to us so far into development are slim and would be stupid for them. They have a fan base. Guild Wars itself has a fan base. It'd be kinda different if this was just Guild Wars and we didn't know who ANet was and never heard of GW before. Then of course I'd be completely doubting them. But everything points towards the game actually being what they're saying it's going to be.
In years of mmo play there will always be some grind mmos will not change too much they are all made with the same concepts in mind a virtual world that is persistant where you the character will choose your own virtual life and play the way you want. so get it through ya thick heads not gonna be very many change too an mmo cept maybe making em more like normal console games if thats the case stick with playing console rpgs.
MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about grind. Of course there's going to be grind in MMOs. But there's a huge difference between needing to grind and wanting to grind. Developers these days make sure you have to grind to feel like you've done anything. It's just a ploy. And MMORPGs aren't supposed to be like that.
You're used to the fact that there is grind in pretty much every MMO. So of course you'll say grind is apart of the genre when really, if developers worried about actual content, nobody would need to grind. And I wouldn't say any of these MMORPG games out today are true RPGs. The console RPGs are as close to a RPG as you can get. And there's nothing wrong with the consoles. They're obviously doing something right.
ArenaNet is looking to make a true RPG. And that involves putting the need to grind in the trash. Just because grind is normal and you're used to it doesn't mean it has to be apart of every MMO you play. And it doesn't mean it's right.
It sounds like what's annoying you isn't the GW game design, but the fanbois who are falling all over one another to sing its praises. Which, of course, begs the question, why bother reading a thread titled "Guild Wars 2: No Grind? Yes, Please!", when clearly, fanbois tripping over one another to sing the praises of GW2, is precisely what you would expect to find here? It's a bit akin to going to see Stallone flick, then complaining that the acting was too wooden. I mean, exactly what were you expecting?
So evidentally, you've either stumbled in here accidentally because you failed to read the thread title, you're functionally illiterate and didn't understand the title (not likely since it appears you can spell), or you're just a troll. C'mon, man up. It's the third one right? Right? Don't worry. No one will hold it against you -- just stop blushing and come out of the closet.
Am I the only one who thinks this is not a good news :(
I mean, what's the point of an RPG if you can reach max level within days from start?
Sounds more like an arcade action game to me.
Yes, its jst you XD .
After playing WoW, Aion, and Warhammer... no grind sounds rather appealing.
This might not be the case for everyone, but i began playing MMORPGS (WoW to be specific) with a background of loving D&D, (3.5, 4 is crap IMO) because of the Roleplaying and Storytelling. Once I got into WoW i was very happy to read most of the quests and feel the story around... for the next 4 days, then i honestly just accepted and followed the directions of my quest add-on (geez i cant even remember the name of it), In retrospective I think that it was because, even if I loved story and roleplaying, the mood of the game was absolutely different (not that i did not liked it, just different).
I have to admit that the leveling process in a lot of circumstances took the form of grind, but i enjoyed to just log on and kill a number of respawning monsters and also to repeat the dungeons. I think it was ok and I still would enjoy it. But the fact is that a little variety does not hurt anyone. Having a game like GW2 where you can start a high level character for "competitive" purposes, such as raiding or pvp, takes away the pressure to level, in which case with a lower level character you can enjoy the line quest and events.
Also, if grind is not hated, why there are so many power leveling services in WoW, basically you are paying off the monthly fee to begin with a max level character, if you would have the option to go straight to level 80, you would never see any of that. On the other hand, making gear less of an issue also discourages gold spamming, but i guess every succesful game would have that anyway.
Just imagine that 1 week before the release of Cataclysm Blizzard would announce that you can create a level 85 character, and every level 80 character you own will raise to level 85, IMO that would force Blizzard to make all the expansion content end game content, that is basically where everyone plays, so you will have more content and skip the leveling process and if you are dumb enough to pay for power leveling save you some bucks.
It always cracks me up when you have the so-called "hardcore" players complaining about the "casual" gamers. I have been part of raiding guilds in a few MMO's that took down the hardest content and played the game "hardcore". After games such as Lineage, Aion etc. I gladly welcome a game not focused on that sort of ridiculous elitist nonsense. Go ahead and feel like you are so awesome for doing somehting that is "hard"(my kin in Lotro had all server firsts for every top tier raid, didn't make me any better than anyone else, In AoC they were one of the first to secure a fortress and successfully defend it) . Looking down on the people who don't want to commit their lives to a freakin' game is hilarious. I grew tired of the guildies who constantly complained about attendance and people who didn't play enough.(I had excellent attendance btw.) A game should be played when you want to, you should never feel an obligation to play a game. If you do then you are doing it wrong. Relax, enjoy yourself and stop putting a game in front of your REAL life. IMO yes a game should be challenging but not to the point that it becomes not fun, why are you doing it? Just so you can look down on other players who have not completed that content and call them "casual" EZmoders? Get a life......
Do not Necro threads, please just leave them dead!
Ive played my fair share of MMOs. And for the record, I havent done any grinding in one since about 2002. Grind is player induced, imo. Its all how you play. Devs can claim to save you from grind, but that like them saying they can save you from yourself.