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Lineage II Forum » Giran (General) » What makes this game special?

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54 posts found
  keiichi2k3

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/06
Posts: 31

 
OP  12/05/11 11:28:54 AM#1

I have a feeling I'm going to get flamed away any way, but hear me out for a second.

I'm trying my best to like this game because I know how successful and popular it is in Korea, and pretty much every MMO site I've visited regards this as one of the better MMOs in general to play.  I understand that its key selling point is its focus around competitive PVP based gameplay.

I looked up some videos and noticed the game contains some large scale, 200 versus 200 (Or probably some much larger number) siege warfare, which I think looks terrific.  I also noticed the importance and reliance on clans and the requirement of interacting with the community and joining forces with others to be truly successful.

I've never personally played Lineage 2 until it went free2play (I've heard much about it though), and primarily stayed away from it due to the stories I've heard about its insanely high grind curve.  Now that the grind is supposedly much faster and free to play, I quickly downloaded it to see what the big deal was about all this time.

But what I found was very lackluster, very one dimensional gameplay that I've seen in many free2plays (and some pay2plays) already.  I just get this feeling of "been there done that" in Lineage 2, where there is basically little option given to the player in terms of how they want to play.  After the initial themepark-ish progression from levels 1 to 41~43, the game turns into a very tried and true korean grinder where you run around endlessly killing mobs while doing the occasional daily and/or participating in the occasional gank or fending off some random PKer. (This is only from my experience, I'm not going to deny I don't know better because I am truly new to Lineage 2) Even crafting seems like it's based entirely off combat, where you have to Spoil targets to get crafting ingredients.  It essentially feels like literally everything is based off combat.

The problem I have with the combat is it feels very simple and (again) one dimensional.  Click to auto-attack and then hit a spell or skill button on occasion to make the killing faster.  It doesn't feel like there's anything more to it, no tactics, no positioning (I suppose unless you're a rogue character that needs to get a backstab in), just auto-attack and skill rotate.

I love the prospect of mass-scale PVP warfare.  It's in fact the only type of PVP I really enjoy.  I feel like today's MMO market is over-saturated with arena based or instance based PVP and have lost the point entirely of competing in a more open space such as static land marks including castles or keeps.  Being able to bring actual siege weapons into battle is even better, and is something I just wish more MMOs implemented in general.

But it feels like for me to work my way up there to enjoy that component of Lineage 2, I have to suffer through a mindless grind where seemingly no other options are given to the player to progress.  You either fight mobs ad nauseum until your mouse or wrist dies, or give up and play something else.  I wouldn't have a problem with this if the combat itself just had more to it than click to auto-attack, click skill to kill faster.

Now I hate using this example I'm about to bring up, but it's the only one that allows me to express my problems easily.

Look at EVE Online, which is doing quite successfully and is also renowned for its open, no-restrictions PVP world and large scale, high player count warfare.  EVE Online has static areas which can be fought over for territorial reasons and gain, and has tactical based combat due to understanding the nuances of your ship's specs and attributes, as well as the types of weapons and modules loaded on to your ship, managing the energy levels and capacities of your ship, and learning skills from a huge skillpool to custom tailor your playstyle to how you want.

In EVE you're given many, many, many choices as to how you want to play.  I don't want to get into it because that would require another thread and god forbid this post may end up being long enough as is already.  But a lot of those other forms of gameplay do not just revolve around combat.

The problem I have with EVE Online is I'm not really into just flying a hunk of space metal and essentially playing as a ship 90% of the time in-game.  I love seeing other players up close (Seems like the only way to see other players in EVE is if they own massive ships) and I prefer walking around on solid ground rather than flying around in an empty vacuum.  But most of all, I love castle siege-style mass scale PVP.

In hindsight, perhaps I should have just mentioned Pre-Trammel Ultima Online or Dark Ages of Camelot because both games gave more choice to the player in terms of how they wished to progress, yet provided open PVP warfare.  DAoC in particular with its keep sieges, and UO in particular for its unparalleled and as of yet cloned sandbox gameplay.

As far as PVP focused korean grinders go, is this simply successful because of the fact it was one of the first ever made that focused around large-scale PVP warfare?  (I know that's an extreme guess but I really have no idea) I simply feel like I've already played this game, just with a different coat of paint and a different name.

Also I'm not going to deny that perhaps I am just getting jaded by the MMORPG genre as a whole, having played practically every free2play and pay2play MMO listed here at MMORPG.com's gamelist in a desperate attempt of finding something I'd truly enjoy.

Maybe I should just wait for Guild Wars 2, ArcheAge, TERA Online, Blade&Soul, Diablo 3, Lineage Eternal, or Phantasy Star Online 2?

 

 

---
Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is.
---
Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park
---
If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you:
www.ProgressQuest.com

  Hoplites

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/06
Posts: 442

12/05/11 11:39:23 AM#2

Clans/alliances, and atmosphere (music, combat sounds, NPC's, etc, scenery).

 

  spinesplit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 115

12/05/11 11:40:50 AM#3

 Here is me soloing on a level 76 character. Please show me a free mmo...or even a pay 2 play one that can offer this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxtXVEvohPU

 

You have lots to say about the game but what level are you?

 

You are calling art and poetry a grind.....

I hate to be the one to tell you this...but thats what we do in l2...we grind....but its not *mindless* *or* basic without skill* its actually very intense and a simple mistake can set you back hours if you die at higher levels... Lineage 2 only becomes epic when you are high level and can throw around some weight in pvp.......

  Hoplites

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/06
Posts: 442

12/05/11 11:46:23 AM#4

Some people just like fighting NPCs while others prefer questing.   When I play City of Heroes I end up just doing street sweeping because it is more fun or run some tip missions. If I am in the mood I will do incarnate trials.  *Shrugs*

In WoW, questing can be fun with some dailies, but for the most part I find it fun to just pick pocket with my Rogue or jump in a BG.  Most of the time I buy and sell greens to disenchant for mats.

In L2 I like just soloing or small parties or just browsiing the sell shops/auction house to buy and sell.

I like exploring the worlds in all of these games but that may not be what interests people in these games. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Coldices

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/06
Posts: 157

12/05/11 11:55:12 AM#5
The fact that the game world and the people inside grows on you. Also what you are doing wrong is solo grinding, try to get in a clan, get some friends and party with them and go to harder spots to level, levels will fly by. IF you decide to solo grind thats also a lot of fun, you always look for the optimal xp/hour with varying skill rotations/buffs etc. you have to manage your mana.

Also the fact that each clan and player has its own personality. And the overall drama that comes with clan wars etc. Its all hard to explain but once you get to experience and understand it many other MMO's are just meh... not 'real'. When I play this game I know its serious business and not just the game.
  spinesplit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 115

12/05/11 11:58:13 AM#6

Hoplites youre right i guess it just isnt for everyone.... I play wow and I can tell you if you expect anything like that from lineage 2 OP you are not going to find it.That is however why i play wow as well.because its different and a nice change..and sometimes  i play EVE because they are all very different.... I can assure you though that in lineage 2......if you work really hard....you can become very powerful...NC soft really does make the powerful items make a difference to your game and how you effect the world.That is how we justify the long grinds....because of the rewards... no free epics being handed out here....you have to work hard....but if you get them its like going from drving a ford to driving a Lamborghini

 

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4110

12/05/11 12:05:43 PM#7
Originally posted by spinesplit

 Here is me soloing on a level 76 character. Please show me a free mmo...or even a pay 2 play one that can offer this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxtXVEvohPU

 

You have lots to say about the game but what level are you?

 

You are calling art and poetry a grind.....

I hate to be the one to tell you this...but thats what we do in l2...we grind....but its not *mindless* *or* basic without skill* its actually very intense and a simple mistake can set you back hours if you die at higher levels... Lineage 2 only becomes epic when you are high level and can throw around some weight in pvp.......

2 things.  first...it looks like you are spamming 1 skill over and over to kill the mobs.  That's not mindless to you?

Second, how do you target the mobs that fast without using the mouse to click on them?  i've been trying to figure that out all day and since tab doesn't target like "normal" mmorpgs, so what does?

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  spinesplit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 115

12/05/11 12:12:32 PM#8

elocke this is a low level nuker area.........youre right it is pretty mindless.but still so beautiful to watch that it doesnt feel like a grind at all to me when playing it...they make the grind fun.

This is not what the rest of the game is like at all...... the party play each person HAS to know their role and if youre not on vent youre probably going to wipe if youre going to the harder areas of the game

 

I am clicking each target with the mouse im just really fast :) if you open your actions tab there should be a *next target* action there for you to use to do what you asked.

 

I am also only spamming that 1 skill because i have wind on my weapon to do damage......this class is actually my favorite in any video game and it has so much variety it can use in different situations in pvp.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17189

12/05/11 12:13:31 PM#9

Op, I think the problem is that you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

The game has traditional grind mechanics and the "themepark" mechanics are a new thing as it never had this component.

what you are missing is being part of an active clan and taking part in the world.Being part of the politics or just being "the bad guys" or "the good guys". Or something in between.

Or, being a pk'er and trying to harass players. or...

learning the economy and being a crafter and selling mats and making money,... or

well, anything you want.

This game is about player interaction. All this leveling stuff is necessary but it's not "the game". It's essentially method of getting you out into the world, gaining power while you find your way in the world.

So tell us what you want to do in this world and we will give you advice on how to start.

 

  spinesplit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 115

12/05/11 12:22:49 PM#10

"So tell us what you want to do in this world and we will give you advice on how to start."

^^^^^ this. :) Even though this game is not considered a sandbox by eletists on this forum....its identical to EVE in the same ways that you have to network....be social...get involved...create your own fun...That is when the game opens up to you.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19071

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/05/11 12:26:45 PM#11
Originally posted by Sovrath

Op, I think the problem is that you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

The game has traditional grind mechanics and the "themepark" mechanics are a new thing as it never had this component.

what you are missing is being part of an active clan and taking part in the world.Being part of the politics or just being "the bad guys" or "the good guys". Or something in between.

Or, being a pk'er and trying to harass players. or...

learning the economy and being a crafter and selling mats and making money,... or

well, anything you want.

This game is about player interaction. All this leveling stuff is necessary but it's not "the game". It's essentially method of getting you out into the world, gaining power while you find your way in the world.

So tell us what you want to do in this world and we will give you advice on how to start.

Now its been many years since I played, but much of what you're speaking about above as being the fun stuff really only comes into its own at the upper levels, and back in the day it was a long, long grind to get to those upper levels.

They say it's improved some, but how much really?

 

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  spinesplit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 115

12/05/11 12:47:08 PM#12

Well......you can get a 200% xp bonus on your vitality that stacks with your current 200% when hunting up to 85 if you get a mentor.You can also get amazing buffs from this.....your mentor has to be logged in though

They give you free A grade and S grade armour and weapons.. when you reach the appropriate levels....... They will last 3 months then vanish

 

A draconic bow S grade was once 1 billion adena......you can now buy 1 from a npc for 6.2 mill and the only catch is it might be *bound* to you like in wow.

 

There are lots of things that have improved these are just prominent ones that are definitely worth mentioning. Basically this update starts at 85......so they want everybody to get there as quickly as possible.It is a bit of a grind 85+ though i am finding but i dont want to be max level in a month...thats not what lineage 2 is.

 

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4818

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

12/05/11 1:01:35 PM#13

Well, yes...

I also started playing L2 because i need a game similar to what OP mentions.

EVE is great. But it takes so much time and dedication. And dont mistake. There is hidden grind there. Also lets face it, if you are not PVPing - PVE is among most boring of them all.

And there all options end.

So I hoped L2 is at least bit like Shadowbane (remember that ?)

 

But I can not take grind. I dont have time for grind.

 

SO maybe I should just give up...

  Jabas

Elite Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 813

12/05/11 1:04:35 PM#14

Theres allready a few nice answers to your question, just like to add my personal experience:

L2 was the 1st mmorpg that i really like it. But them a few features and the army for bots in 2007 made me quit. Since then i jump from mmo to mmo trying to find something that i really enjoy but was 4 years of frustrations.

And in any mmo i had to grind, one way or other.

So, i back to L2 because theres nothing in the market atm to offer me the experience L2 provide.

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17189

12/05/11 1:20:57 PM#15
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Sovrath

Op, I think the problem is that you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

The game has traditional grind mechanics and the "themepark" mechanics are a new thing as it never had this component.

what you are missing is being part of an active clan and taking part in the world.Being part of the politics or just being "the bad guys" or "the good guys". Or something in between.

Or, being a pk'er and trying to harass players. or...

learning the economy and being a crafter and selling mats and making money,... or

well, anything you want.

This game is about player interaction. All this leveling stuff is necessary but it's not "the game". It's essentially method of getting you out into the world, gaining power while you find your way in the world.

So tell us what you want to do in this world and we will give you advice on how to start.

Now its been many years since I played, but much of what you're speaking about above as being the fun stuff really only comes into its own at the upper levels, and back in the day it was a long, long grind to get to those upper levels.

They say it's improved some, but how much really?

 

IT doesn't have to.

It really depends on what you want to do. One could be a pk'er and take on lower lvl players and run like hell when they logged in with their alts. That was done quite a bit in the old days.

Or take over a lower lvl hunting area until bigger guns arrived.

I recall leveling an alt in the Elven Fortress and two dwarves came in with poles and said "beat it". Now Here I am, lvl 8? 9?

so I said "no".

They then threatned me with their alts (which were much lower than my main) but I still refused to budge. We then fought and had I but one more potion I would have won. Came back and they were gone and never showed up with their alts.

That type of interaction does happen at lower lvls.

During sieges we would put lower level players at key points so they could act as spies.

Even though beign higher lvl makes you a god there is no reason that a player should avoid doing what they want as they level.

But then it depends on what you want from the game, or expect from it.

It seems that the made leveling much faster so being "low" shouldn't last that long.

  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3032

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

12/05/11 1:31:48 PM#16
Originally posted by Kyleran

Now its been many years since I played, but much of what you're speaking about above as being the fun stuff really only comes into its own at the upper levels, and back in the day it was a long, long grind to get to those upper levels.

They say it's improved some, but how much really?

It's depending on your level and where and how you play in general.

My main is a 83 Maestro, and it's prolly the most UNWANTED class in parties. This means I have to play a lot solo, and right now I'm at the Beast Garden. Playing there solo for an hour or so, gives me about 5% in XP (depending on the feed I use to grow the beasts - I prefer gold for drops, while crystal gives about 5x more XP but no drops).

Playing in parties in Giants Cave things might go faster while leveling, but GC is a minless spot if you ask me. Full parties needed to kill HUGE (in HP) mobs, while drops are rather low though.

So yeah, there's still a bit of a grind these days, but it's far less than it was back when I started in 2006.

@OP - you've lost me when you said "what I found was very lackluster, very one dimensional gameplay that I've seen in many free2plays". I too tried to make a new char and enjoy the 'new content' added, but I didn't like it a bit. The newly added (themepark)  mechanics don't do the game justice at the lower levels, when you compare with what's to come.

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  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

12/05/11 1:46:35 PM#17

What makes this game special?

To me, it's one of the few MMORPGs left standing that give you that "Virtual World" feel.  Since this game has a Free For All PvP rule set, it really is like the wild wild west. 

Even though FFA PvP and harsh death penalties are looked upon as blasphemy these days, I had an experience in game this week playing L2 that I haven't had since.....well quitting L2 several years ago to play WOW.  I was hunting in an area that I finally found that wasn't over run by people.  All of the sudden I got hit by a spell that didn't come from any of the monsters around me...it was another play.  I panned my camera around to see a RED name running right for me.  Knowing that I'd lose the last 30 minutes or so of XPing if I let the guy kill me....my heart started racing and I began to sweat.  I think it's called adreneline.  I had something to LOSE and there was no zone rules or NPCs to protect me.  It was exciting!

 

I didn't have the Health or Mana to turn and fight back so I ran for my life.  I later returned and quickly found another player hunting in the area that also got harrased by the evil PK.  We decided to party and protect eachother if the PK came back.  While XPing, we chatted up a bit and ended up friending eachother to may hunt together again in the future.

 

Game mechanics that are considered less evolved and nonessential to modern MMORPGs (Risk, Penalties, FFA Combat, Consequence) helped bring two people together....THAT is something special among the slew of new MMOs.

 

Yes, on it's face....Lineage 2 might seem a little antiquated and less refined.  Click to move is "old generation" MMO fare, the graphics engine (Unreal 2) is a bit legacy, and there is no fancy phasing content or voice acting.

 

But I can say that Player driven endgame content (political infighting, alliance betrayals, and the constant ebb and flow of power among the top alliances) is WAY more dynamic and interesting than any new raid dungeon or boss fight.  I can say that there is REAL meaningful real world PvP that can happen in any field, dungeon room, or XP spot.  Unlike in World of Warcraft (where you sometimes win, even though you lose)....there are consequences to not playing smart, and it drives people to change their behaivor and become better.

 

As many others said, the real alure of the game is the socializing (be it anti-social PK "bad guy" behavior, or spending a few hours in vent...joking and cutting up while XPing in some dungeon room.

if you're looking for a developer driven content experience where you just sit back and let the game direct you where you go....this may not be your cup of tea.  If you're looking for a virtual world simulation that is a little dangerous and puts the onus on YOU to create your experience, then L2 is one of the few games left that achieves this.

  keiichi2k3

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/06
Posts: 31

 
OP  12/05/11 2:16:19 PM#18

One key point I've read thus far from all of the replies is the drama and influence of joining a clan and developing ties (Alliances or Rivalries) between other clans.  This is an understandable perk, however many MMOs that centralize around a guild, clan, organization, or group based feature inherently already feature this.  By electively joining a clan or guild, you open yourself to the nuances and intricacies of that community and the potential drama and influence that permeates from that.  It's just a natural byproduct of joining any sectored community in any MMO.

Naturally, also developing friends makes any MMO much more entertaining and fun.

As for the youtube video posted, I'm sorry but I fail to grasp what is being shown in that video.  If anything, it is making me want to stray even farther away from the game.  I see one player soloing mobs using one single skill and doing nothing else.

Another post mentioned "party play".  This is a big thing for me, which I have yet to experience personally aside from the first Kamaloka players go through.  I still think to this day, in my honest experience, that the MMO out there that did party play properly was Final Fantasy XI.  If positions, tactics, and understanding the role that you fill in a party is part of the game in Lineage 2, then even better.  I'd like to eventually experience that first hand. I just haven't seen it yet.

Someone asked me what I would like to do in the game.  Frankly, what I'd honestly like to do simply does not exist in any MMO in the market right now.  My ideal version of an MMO takes little bits and pieces of this-and-that from every MMO I've played, but to see those meshed up together into one cohesive package is extremely and highly unlikely.  I would essentially be asking for a full blown sequel to Ultima Online with a multi-million dollar budget.

I'm afraid that if I describe what I'd like to do, I would probably just get scoffed at.  But the one thing I'd like to just experience from a game that features large scale siege warfare is variety to the gameplay mechanics.

Joining a clan, guild, organization, linkshell, or whatever else they've been called in the industry adds tremendously to any MMO's gameplay -- they are social games after all.  I'm tired of games that focus on the individual/solo experience.  But many games have offered far more variety as to what the player can elect to do within the confines of that game world.

- The crafting and resource gathering mechanics feel extremely simple.
  - In Ultima Online (PRE-TRAMMEL): If you needed ore, you went up to a mountain side and carved it.  If you needed wood, you went up to a tree and cut it.  If you needed fish, you went to the sea and fished it.  You take your materials to an anvil to blacksmith, use a spool to create clothes, and kitchen utencils and fire to cook.  (Among other things)
- The lack of player housing. (Although there are clan halls I believe?)
  - In Star Wars Galaxies (PRE-NGE):  Players could create a static house in the game world (Not instanced).  Enough houses together formed a player town.  You could buy static resource gatherers that could be placed on resource veins for the production of goods.  Houses could be decorated using just about every conceivable ownable item in the game world and in any way they see fit.
- The combat feels extremely simple and one-dimensional.
  - In Final Fantasy XI: Party play is a requirement.  Each person in the party played a very specific role, and each person in the party had a symbiotic reliance upon each other.  If one person in the chain failed, the party would fail.  Positioning and tactics were important.  The Thief has to communicate with the Tank and Secondary Tank to perform a Sneak Attack Trick Attack successfully.  Coordination, cooperation, positioning, and understanding your role are key to being successful.

Even if an MMO were to just focus on one single gameplay mechanic such as Combat, at least make the combat engaging and entertaining.  I apologize if I sound aroggant in that sense, but I simply have not personally experienced that as of yet in my current play through of Lineage 2.  What I've experienced is essentially what is shown in the youtube video posted earlier.  Make no mistake however, I am going out of my way to try to enjoy this as much as I can.  I need -something- to hold me over until those games I listed are released.

I'd love to experience Lineage 2's key selling point of large-scale sieges so I'll still keep at it.  But I can't see myself playing this for long stretches of time in a given day, nor can I see myself really sticking around with it for much longer once the games I listed in my original post are released. And even then, I'm sure those games I listed will not satisfy me either, save for MAYBE ArcheAge.  I've heard many great things about this but I am not getting my hopes up.
 

edit: splelning

---
Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is.
---
Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park
---
If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you:
www.ProgressQuest.com

  Panther2103

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2073

12/05/11 2:22:53 PM#19

It's a lot faster now than it used to be. I got to level 52 in almost 2 days. Super quick compared to the old L2 grind. Quests are actually present and worth it until level 43 now, and there are dailies that give you at least half a level at level 50 and 52. It's changed completely but honestly for the better. We went from 1 server with 3k people logged in 24/7 and the eu server with 2k. to 4 servers pushing 5k 24/7. It worked for them, and I see quite a few people actually getting to higher levels. There aren't many bots from what I can tell, people police that now for some reason, killing entire bot trains with a perma red character. It's nice.

  keiichi2k3

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/06
Posts: 31

 
OP  12/05/11 2:28:10 PM#20
Originally posted by Reizla
-snip-

@OP - you've lost me when you said "what I found was very lackluster, very one dimensional gameplay that I've seen in many free2plays". I too tried to make a new char and enjoy the 'new content' added, but I didn't like it a bit. The newly added (themepark)  mechanics don't do the game justice at the lower levels, when you compare with what's to come.

Sorry about that.  But how did I lose you? If anything, it sounds almost exactly like you're agreeing with me.  I too felt the same exact way with the progression from 1 to 40+.  I am just about done with Themepark style progression.  I'm thankful that at least the game unshackled me from that chain.

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Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is.
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Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park
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If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you:
www.ProgressQuest.com

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