Lately I've been looking at a lot of PvP models, checking out how those games boost pvp and how the risk vs reward systems really work.

And I kind of came to a conclussion that many people will not like, but it's my opinion after looking at things from a wider point of view.

We all know that Lineage II is a guild based hardcore grind game, but why? Does the game really need the grind? Can't the game offer PvP arenas rewards like WoW? Cant L2 have instances?

Those are the questions that popped up while thinking on this, and I came to this conclussion, L2's pvp wouldn't be half as good as it is without the grind.

It's a fact that in this game, people get pissed when dying due to the XP loss and humilliation a rival might provide you, what do you do if you loose? Well, I don't know about you, but many of the players go and sit down in towns doing other stuff cause they are still pissed, while some others seek for revenge.

Those players that go to town are forced to go back to pve, thus being exposed to pvp by the game mechanics.

Instances do not work in this pvp system, many people will advoid adrenaline rushes and risk in order to pve peacefuly.

Rewarding quests would not work in this game, taking a fast safer way to get rewards would end up with everyone doing them, thus lowering the ammount of open world pvp.

By now you should be thinking that in my opinion people advoid pvp, and I do think a high % of players advoid open world pvp if there's a risk involved, however, would the PvP in L2 be as dramatic and exciting if everyone loved open world pvp with harsh penalties? It wouldn't. It's a love-hate relationship, you hate to lose, you love it when you win, that's why guilds get destroyed after harsh clan wars, that's why people go inactive during those wars if they loose, yet, people still have those memories of when they won those pvps, cause love-hate relationships are everlasting.

The only flaw I can find here is that it takes a lot to start participating in this pvp, and I repeat, I think the grind on this game fits the pvp style perfectly, but there should be an easier leveling curve until you reach competitive levels, and then make it way harder once you just want to have an individual advantage.

Im sure Im missing some coherence here and there and maybe my text is not perfectly expressing the point I tried to make, but I think it's time to end this rant and wait for your opinions.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Lately I've been looking at a lot of PvP models, checking out how those games boost pvp and how the risk vs reward systems really work.

And I kind of came to a conclussion that many people will not like, but it's my opinion after looking at things from a wider point of view.

We all know that Lineage II is a guild based hardcore grind game, but why? Does the game really need the grind? Can't the game offer PvP arenas rewards like WoW? Cant L2 have instances?

Those are the questions that popped up while thinking on this, and I came to this conclussion, L2's pvp wouldn't be half as good as it is without the grind.

It's a fact that in this game, people get pissed when dying due to the XP loss and humilliation a rival might provide you, what do you do if you loose? Well, I don't know about you, but many of the players go and sit down in towns doing other stuff cause they are still pissed, while some others seek for revenge.

Those players that go to town are forced to go back to pve, thus being exposed to pvp by the game mechanics.

Instances do not work in this pvp system, many people will advoid adrenaline rushes and risk in order to pve peacefuly.

Rewarding quests would not work in this game, taking a fast safer way to get rewards would end up with everyone doing them, thus lowering the ammount of open world pvp.

By now you should be thinking that in my opinion people advoid pvp, and I do think a high % of players advoid open world pvp if there's a risk involved, however, would the PvP in L2 be as dramatic and exciting if everyone loved open world pvp with harsh penalties? It wouldn't. It's a love-hate relationship, you hate to lose, you love it when you win, that's why guilds get destroyed after harsh clan wars, that's why people go inactive during those wars if they loose, yet, people still have those memories of when they won those pvps, cause love-hate relationships are everlasting.

The only flaw I can find here is that it takes a lot to start participating in this pvp, and I repeat, I think the grind on this game fits the pvp style perfectly, but there should be an easier leveling curve until you reach competitive levels, and then make it way harder once you just want to have an individual advantage.

Im sure Im missing some coherence here and there and maybe my text is not perfectly expressing the point I tried to make, but I think it's time to end this rant and wait for your opinions.

I can sum up what is currently wrong with the PVP in Lineage 2.  Even though there are very little instances everyone is spread out becuase the map expands every few chronicles which spreads everyone out. 

This is bad for PVE and PVP.

The grind wouldn't bother me if I was able to find groups easily like in the past (eg C2) but since that is the case then it makes it difficult to PVE.  And if you can't PVE in this game then you can't PVP and that is what happens to all the new players.  Soloing in this game is defined by boxing not truly soloing but that is another problem all together.

The whole point of a MMORPG is massive gathering areas where they are a lot of players online.  Giran is an example of this point as was Cruma Tower and DVC.  Take away the gathering areas for PVE grouping and you also take away those areas for mass PVP in the world

Castle sieges one weekend every two weeks?  That is not enough to hold players to keep pushing to grind in PVE to progress in greater power as they level.

Dominating a location rich in resources is the purpose and means for the pvp.  You have to work as a team to control a certain area, harvest the resources there via PvE and use those resources to create powerful weapons to dominate the next resource area. 

Take out the PvE and its just a team vs team deathmatch.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Lately I've been looking at a lot of PvP models, checking out how those games boost pvp and how the risk vs reward systems really work.

And I kind of came to a conclussion that many people will not like, but it's my opinion after looking at things from a wider point of view.

We all know that Lineage II is a guild based hardcore grind game, but why? Does the game really need the grind? Can't the game offer PvP arenas rewards like WoW? Cant L2 have instances?

Those are the questions that popped up while thinking on this, and I came to this conclussion, L2's pvp wouldn't be half as good as it is without the grind.

It's a fact that in this game, people get pissed when dying due to the XP loss and humilliation a rival might provide you, what do you do if you loose? Well, I don't know about you, but many of the players go and sit down in towns doing other stuff cause they are still pissed, while some others seek for revenge.

Those players that go to town are forced to go back to pve, thus being exposed to pvp by the game mechanics.

Instances do not work in this pvp system, many people will advoid adrenaline rushes and risk in order to pve peacefuly.

Rewarding quests would not work in this game, taking a fast safer way to get rewards would end up with everyone doing them, thus lowering the ammount of open world pvp.

By now you should be thinking that in my opinion people advoid pvp, and I do think a high % of players advoid open world pvp if there's a risk involved, however, would the PvP in L2 be as dramatic and exciting if everyone loved open world pvp with harsh penalties? It wouldn't. It's a love-hate relationship, you hate to lose, you love it when you win, that's why guilds get destroyed after harsh clan wars, that's why people go inactive during those wars if they loose, yet, people still have those memories of when they won those pvps, cause love-hate relationships are everlasting.

The only flaw I can find here is that it takes a lot to start participating in this pvp, and I repeat, I think the grind on this game fits the pvp style perfectly, but there should be an easier leveling curve until you reach competitive levels, and then make it way harder once you just want to have an individual advantage.

Im sure Im missing some coherence here and there and maybe my text is not perfectly expressing the point I tried to make, but I think it's time to end this rant and wait for your opinions.

No not really, I think you're close to the mark but what you miss is that ultimately L2 is NOT a PvP focused game. It USES PvP to resolve issues that ultimately come up in PvE games but which remain unresolvable within those game systems.

L2 is effectively a PvE game and the success of your clan and individual players will set the conditions for your success in PvP. If there was no RMT and no e-bay adena available you would see this far more clearly. Alas for reality, the available shortcuts mean that a lot more ppl get to participate in the "end game" of L2 that are actually entitled to participate in it. At one stage this used to bother me, but ultimately I prefer to have some ppl playing the game to no ppl playing the game.

Whilst this may seem blasphemous to some, I will leave the policing of the game to NCSoft and I'll stick to playing by the guidelines set within our clan, which prohibits botting or e-baying IAW the EULA. There is no way to enforce this guideline so all you can hope for is that the individuals playing the game will see it for what it is and do the right thing.

Regards,

Ellyrion Fiallathandriel

The Reckless Knight

Lunatris