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Sudden Attack Forum » General Discussion » Criminal charges for cheating: just punishment or just too far?

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176 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 13175

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

 
OP  6/26/14 6:35:32 AM#161
Originally posted by Vrika
Originally posted by Cor4x
Originally posted by seafirex

Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so. 

If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.

If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store. 

So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.

So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?

Do you know the difference between legal competition and obstruction of business? If you tried to put up your lemon stand INSIDE your competitor's lemon stand, then yes, you would get locked up.

What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?

This is not about liking or disliking people. It's about Nexon gaving proof that those people use 3rd party program to manipulate the game.

It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly?

Is it the terrorists' problem that WTC towers weren't made properly?

What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?

WTF are you talking about? CCP owns their game. Owner's right to their game and 3rd party's right to game owned by someone else are completely different matters.

At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.

I'm quite sure they

1. Have programmed cheat detection and banning tools to prepare for cheaters

2. Detected that those people cheated

3. Banned those people do prevent further damages

Isn't demanding compensation usually the next logical step? That's usually done in RL cases when company's own security manages to catch someone that has caused some damage. What should they do to recoup the damage? Hire hitmen?

And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.

1. Nexon didn't claim that anything lost from the game is a criminal offence. Only that this very specific case of causing losses due to breaking EULA this way is a criminal offence.

2. Failing to protect yourself is never criminal. If the owners won't kick you off they might be negligent, and that might reduce their chances of getting damages/protection by law later on, but not protecting yourself is never a crime.

You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?

You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be a rapist?

 

Thank you, Vrika. It's a bit clear from Cor4x's odd reaction and borderline hostility that he didn't read the article. 

I would not mind in game advertising, it does not break gaming ethos. - Scot

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 13175

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

 
OP  6/26/14 6:38:30 AM#162
Originally posted by Cor4x
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Baitness
Originally posted by Cor4x
Originally posted by seafirex

Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so. 

So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?

Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense.  For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first.  Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up).  There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either.  Well, except lack of evidence.

Baitness is right. Anyone can make "hackusations" just like anyone can go around accusing people of murder. That's not what this is about though. This is about an actual wrongdoing or violation of law and the company's decision to press criminal charges based on their evidence of it. 

No, Baitness is WRONG. I advise you not to go making murder accusations wildly. That is a crime.

But, far from us to say Murder is a crime but cheating in a video game? Too much gold? Camp stealing your mawb?! By god that is the death penalty!

Again, no one would play those games and it isn't currently in law (and a laughable league from it) and no sane company, from the examples prior expressed, would EVER do so.

You're not making much sense. It seems you agree with Baitness, but it's hard to tell. 

I would not mind in game advertising, it does not break gaming ethos. - Scot

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

6/26/14 6:47:08 AM#163
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vrika
Originally posted by Cor4x
Originally posted by seafirex

Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so. 

If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.

If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store. 

So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.

So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?

Do you know the difference between legal competition and obstruction of business? If you tried to put up your lemon stand INSIDE your competitor's lemon stand, then yes, you would get locked up.

What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?

This is not about liking or disliking people. It's about Nexon gaving proof that those people use 3rd party program to manipulate the game.

It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly?

Is it the terrorists' problem that WTC towers weren't made properly?

WTC was an unforeseen circumstance.  If a tower in SF fell during an earthquake that would be a foreseeable risk that should be designed out- that is a closer example.  

What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?

WTF are you talking about? CCP owns their game. Owner's right to their game and 3rd party's right to game owned by someone else are completely different matters.

At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.

I'm quite sure they

1. Have programmed cheat detection and banning tools to prepare for cheaters

2. Detected that those people cheated

3. Banned those people do prevent further damages

Isn't demanding compensation usually the next logical step? That's usually done in RL cases when company's own security manages to catch someone that has caused some damage. What should they do to recoup the damage? Hire hitmen?

And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.

1. Nexon didn't claim that anything lost from the game is a criminal offence. Only that this very specific case of causing losses due to breaking EULA this way is a criminal offence.

EULA's are contracts of adhesion and as such no games company can rely on them- I would go as far as to say they are largely meaningless.  This is a criminal case and unrelated to any 'breach of contract'.    

2. Failing to protect yourself is never criminal. If the owners won't kick you off they might be negligent, and that might reduce their chances of getting damages/protection by law later on, but not protecting yourself is never a crime.

You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?

You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be a rapist?

 

Thank you, Vrika. It's a bit clear from Cor4x's odd reaction and borderline hostility that he didn't read the article. 

Just added a couple of comments. 

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3567

6/26/14 7:06:04 AM#164

Judging by the strong reactions of some posters in this thread, it's clear that many people think that cheaters in MMO's should not be punished at all. Just ban them (after which they'll laugh, create a new account and re-offend).

 

"Haha, it's only a game ffs, get real..."

Yeah, go run onto the pitch in the middle of a Superbowl game and then repeat that line to the judge at your hearing...

 

It is inevitable that stricter regulation will be applied to online gaming as the market (and revenue involved) grows. Nexon are probably trying a "test case" here in a country where they might actually succeed. If they do succeed, it may open the way for more companies to follow this route, or start lobbying for it.

 

Goldsellers (and the people that often supply them with "farmed" currency) are becoming more organised and sophisticated. As time goes by, they will be an ever greater drain on the revenue generated in the game. The game companies are facing the prospect of sharply higher operating costs if they have to hire an army of GM's to police the game. No wonder they're lashing out at cheating in any way possible.

  Rylah

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 197

6/26/14 1:23:22 PM#165
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Rylah

No wonder the US have the highest number of prisoners worldwide by a large margin and that both in absolute and per capita numbers. It seems to be the be all end all solution to everything.

 

What are you talking about?  It happened in Japan....

I am talking about some americans here in this thread proposing shoving points sticks up the rearside of people and campaigning for criminalizing and jailing people for something like cheating in a game. Seems to be something which is socially an culturally deeply rooted. And that regardless of the fact that it doesn't work. At all.

  NeoTiger13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/14
Posts: 34

6/26/14 4:43:29 PM#166

Time out. From here on out and forever furthermore until the end of time. You must read at least the original posting and related article(s) to reply here.

 

This is a public service announcement from "little o' me."

 

--End Transmission--

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2833

6/26/14 5:05:46 PM#167
Some people take games way too seriously. No way should someone be locked up in a cage because they cheated in a video game.
  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2833

6/26/14 5:11:38 PM#168
Originally posted by Tyggs
You agree to terms and conditions. If you break the agreement, certain reprocussions are expected. This is a good thing IMO.

And yet coporations can break any term or condition while laying off workers and getting bailed out by governments using tax payers money.

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2833

6/26/14 5:14:43 PM#169
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Jacxolope
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Swids2010


Most games today you have to sign terms of agreement or something similar effectively a contract people get sued and prosecuted all the time for breaking contracts why wouldn't we see gaming company's start to take legal action against people.

To copy/ paste one of my earlier posts in this thread: -

EULAs are contracts of adhesion, therefore you generally find in favour of the gamer and against the company that drafted it (since you are forced to sign having already purchased the product).  They are also over-ridden by national law; for example, you can't alter negligence tort or copyright statute in a EULA although most firms do contradict these laws.

In practice EULAs really are largely meaningless. 

If true then its past time that those EULA's were allowed 'teeth' if people knew that they would be at risk of some kind of legal action against them, then that might discourage many of them from breaking them, and honestly i don't have a problem with that at all.

For example, if you knew that for a first offence, you risked incurring a £100 fine for a minor breach of a games EULA, that might make people think twice, and considering the company already has your credit card details anyway its easily enforceable but for those who don't pay by credit card, its worth bearing in mind that any fines imposed by a court ruling etc can be legally recovered as an attachment of earnings from your wages from your employer, which can also hurt your standing with your employer, after all, they might want to know what you've been up to

So yes, lets have EULA's have some legal standing, its about time.

Then we need proof of being of majority age as no EULA could be agreed to by a minor and the EULA must be stated before purchase. This would hinder anyone under 18/21 from ever signing up to any game or service online or that requires a EULA.

This will hurt far more than it helps (concerning profit) since this will create more red tape and new departments in confirming that you are entering into a legal agreement with an adult of full mental capacity.

Then we will have companies like Sony adding things like Spyware to your PC and put it in very small print in the bottom of the eula that "we reserve the right to hack your computer"...Far Fetched? They did it...And were sued in the California Supreme Court.

 

If a minor incurs a fine for breaching a EULA, then exactly where were the parents? why should the parents not incur the fine for their lack of parental supervision which it is their duty as parents to provide, or are you saying its not their responsibility for what they get up to online?
 

I hear this one so often, people who say these kind of things obviously don't have kids.

  NeoTiger13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/14
Posts: 34

6/26/14 5:16:48 PM#170
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Phry
-snip-

If a minor incurs a fine for breaching a EULA, then exactly where were the parents? why should the parents not incur the fine for their lack of parental supervision which it is their duty as parents to provide, or are you saying its not their responsibility for what they get up to online?
 

I hear this one so often, people who say these kind of things obviously don't have kids.

 

Well, in that vein or idea, if I had kids, I wouldn't think twice of having gaming/computers/MMOs being their babysitter. I'd be saving bank and they'd be growing up without the ill-effects of society.

 

I'd also teach them that the pixels on their screen are meaningless so don't let their chat in game effect you in anyway.

  nbtscan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 707

6/26/14 5:28:28 PM#171

Nexon is only hurting themselves by releasing trash games.

Every other game company just perma bans exploiters.  Wonder why they think they're so special that they can press criminal charges.

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2833

6/26/14 5:30:01 PM#172
Originally posted by NeoTiger13
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Phry
-snip-

If a minor incurs a fine for breaching a EULA, then exactly where were the parents? why should the parents not incur the fine for their lack of parental supervision which it is their duty as parents to provide, or are you saying its not their responsibility for what they get up to online?
 

I hear this one so often, people who say these kind of things obviously don't have kids.

 

Well, in that vein or idea, if I had kids, I wouldn't think twice of having gaming/computers/MMOs being their babysitter. I'd be saving bank and they'd be growing up without the ill-effects of society.

 

I'd also teach them that the pixels on their screen are meaningless so don't let their chat in game effect you in anyway.

If those pixels are meaningless then i see no reason for cheaters to be jailed. Did you not play MMO/games when you were a kid? So it's alright for you to do it as a kid but you'll deny your kids that option?

  NeoTiger13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/14
Posts: 34

6/26/14 5:35:17 PM#173
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by NeoTiger13
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Phry
-snip-

If a minor incurs a fine for breaching a EULA, then exactly where were the parents? why should the parents not incur the fine for their lack of parental supervision which it is their duty as parents to provide, or are you saying its not their responsibility for what they get up to online?
 

I hear this one so often, people who say these kind of things obviously don't have kids.

 

Well, in that vein or idea, if I had kids, I wouldn't think twice of having gaming/computers/MMOs being their babysitter. I'd be saving bank and they'd be growing up without the ill-effects of society.

 

I'd also teach them that the pixels on their screen are meaningless so don't let their chat in game effect you in anyway.

If those pixels are meaningless then i see no reason for cheaters to be jailed. Did you not play MMO/games when you were a kid? So it's alright for you to do it as a kid but you'll deny your kids that option?

 

Two things:

1, "those pixels" are the other gamers utilizing the chat feature. That's what I'm referring to. I'd teach my kids that those people and their values are worthless (or of no consequence) and not to be swayed by their actions.

2, Did you not read my bit about how I'd gladly have the MMO world or gaming world babysit my kid, 10 hours a day in front of the PC? I know they are safe and secure.

  lunatiquez

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 394

6/26/14 10:53:04 PM#174

Lol, that's Asia for you. 

You know, it makes me remember about my thread about gold buyers the other day. People are justifying it because it's not illegal even though it's breaching the EULA. How about now?

  Ichmen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1238

hatred enriches.life is a prison, death a release.

6/26/14 11:00:42 PM#175

i totally support them charging FPS cheaters.  i cant stand booting up a FPS only to be snipped in spawn from across the map by a guy using a 9mm pistol simply because he has a wall cheat and aimbot.  if the game is getting crushed do to cheaters that paying legit players are quitting, ofcourse they should go after them.  game could suck donkey balls or be a diamond doesnt matter cheating in a multiplayer game/match is just pathetic.  you gain/ improve no skills from doing it and it just saps the actual fun out of the game for everyone else.

its about time game companies went after multiplayer cheaters >>" start making it more risky to use cheats. instead of the normal

 

OH YOU BAD BOY SLAP SLAP.. ban account... open new account... continue...

we have currently

CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 860 2.8GHz
Evga GeForce 670 FTW
Evga P55 SLI

<

  User Deleted
6/26/14 11:13:09 PM#176

What you people fail to understand is that your emotional reaction (if acted upon in a legal way in the USA- I know we are talking about Japan here but I am seeing people I know who are countrymen support this madness) will end up giving the Government the power to shut down your game by declaring it a nuisance if too many of these cases arise in a single game as this would show the staff and owners are not taking an active enough role to combat the issues or they are incapable of doing such. If this is a regular thing, the game will be shut down. Since we want to have real world comparisons here is a google search of this happening regularly https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=public+nuisance+closed+down&spell=1 so if the business has continued problems with illegal activity (as you want cheating defined) then that is a two way street concerning our tax money.

 

In other words if your game is attracting a high level of cheaters and this illegal activity is persisting- And you fail to gget it under control... YOU can be closed down.

Let the Government in...Watch how quick online gaming is taxed and regulated to the hilt with the government dictating all kind of nonsense and further entrenching themselves with control over the internet. You may rightfully dislike heaters..Its not ethical. But legal and ethics and separate. You are asking for pandoras box to be opened and you may not like how it works out-

-Anyhow, some of you people make me fear for humanity...But thats another story.

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