This is a hotly debated item on the LOTRO forums. The entire gear gating conversation

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=279701

I have been on this post as well.  You have 3 types of players. The hard core who get geared on and they are leet and rage on the other players. The I don't care ill go my on way. And the I am mad folks as I am unlucky enough not to have a good kin or the resources to put together a good pug to get geared for raiding.

What has happned is LOTRO has created the raiding type, you have to have the gear to raid, so now you have those who do see the end game content and those who do not. Sad thing is more folks don't care nowdays so you have a game with end game content that a lot of players will never ever see.

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

It may not be required, but that doesn't matter to a lot of people.  They see someone else has it, and they figure they should have it too because they pay the same monthly sub.

I'm not defending raiders here, as I detest raids and don't see how people have the patience to put up with them, but I also have to laugh at the entitlement problem that non-raiders seem to have.

Its kinda like real life: if you want something, work for it.  If its important enough to you, do whatever it takes (not including whining for a handout).  You aren't owed anything.

Originally posted by veritas_X

It may not be required, but that doesn't matter to a lot of people.  They see someone else has it, and they figure they should have it too because they pay the same monthly sub.

I'm not defending raiders here, as I detest raids and don't see how people have the patience to put up with them, but I also have to laugh at the entitlement problem that non-raiders seem to have.

Its kinda like real life: if you want something, work for it.  If its important enough to you, do whatever it takes (not including whining for a handout).  You aren't owed anything.

I think with LOTR there are a lot more people who play the game in order to experience the content. In other words, they are Tolkien fans and they love being in his world (or Turbine's version of it). It isn't the gear they are missing out on, it's the content they are not seeing.

I'm a little sore at the fact that the First Age weapons are initially acquired through hard-core raiding, and the only way I'm going to get one is from the AH after a hard-core raider has identified it and rejected it.

The thing is though, the radiance effect from armor, has effects that greatly help a player in other aspects of the game (beefing up your character), not just the raids in particular.

So no, no one who doesn't do the raids needs the armor, but it's far and away the best armor in the game. 

That's really what people are complaining about - they want armor almost as good as radiance. But there's just a huge gap between that and non-radiance, it's not even funny.

Anyway, this is one of the many reasons I wish I had a time machine, or even a phone like Eric Cartman had, to warn me against getting a lifetime sub to Lotro. I want my $200 back. Okay, I figure I got a good 5 months out of it, so it's only like I lost $125, but still...it's almost a case of bait and switch. You show you the starter area, which is so good, and you think the rest of the game is just as good, or at least not painful. Too bad it turned out to be the latter.

Seriously, I don't know what they are thinking. They get probably the 2nd biggest casual license there is (among fantasy) and decide it needs to be an uber leet raiding game. What's next? Permadeath?

As said earlier. Radiance gear is by FAR the best gear in game. Radiance doesn't only make you immune to dread, but also it gives you bonus to damage, and morale (health).

The biggest issue is, that each class has one radiance set (if I don't count the new 3 radiance pieces). Even with that, the item customization is almost nonexistent. Everyone that wishes to waste their time farming for radiance has the exact same set as everyone else with the same class. Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

No other armor in the game is close to matching the statistics of the radiance gear.

Forgetting about the radiance statistic, are you saying that the radiance gear has no benefit outside of raids?

If the higher armor class etc has no benefit why does the armor even have these "useless" attributes?

I'm glad I'm in the "I don't care ill go my on way" group. Maybe someday I'll run one or two of these hardmode instances, but it's not high on my priority list. I'm having fun doing other stuff in Middle Earth.

Originally posted by thorwood

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

No other armor in the game is close to matching the statistics of the radiance gear.

Forgetting about the radiance statistic, are you saying that the radiance gear has no benefit outside of raids?

If the higher armor class etc has no benefit why does the armor even have these "useless" attributes?

Actually, thank you for purposely missing the point of my post.  It's always fun to explain things in a less intelligent manner to the entitlement crowd.   Though radiance armor may have slightly better stats than its non-radiance counterparts (and here I refer to the copper coin armor that drops in the same instances and the teal armor obtainable from doing the Moria epic quests) you DO NOT NEED RADIANCE ARMOR IF YOU DO NOT RAID.    Have you gotten to level 60 without radiance armor?  Were you able to finish the quest lines (rep and otherwise) that get you into Lothlorien?  Have you been able to complete deeds in Moria, Eregion and Lorien without the radiance armor?   What about leveling your legendary weapon and class item?  Were you able to do that without radiance armor?

I believe that people who are complaining here would only have a legitimate basis for complaint if, it turns out, in future books (like the anticipated opening of southern Mirkwood in the next book) that you would be unable to complete non-raid pve without the radiance gear.  Otherwise, what do you propose? RMTs that give you access to radiance armor for RL cash?  Mobs that drop radiance gear as loot?  What is it that you non-raiders want?  It is like minority position in politics ... you have not successfully convinced the majority of your position.  Try again and we'll reconsider our position if you come up with better supported arguments.

My wish is that crafters would be able to make something comparable.  I enjoy crafting in this game, its one of the reasons I chose to sub, but lately it seems they are forgetting about us in favor of gear-based raiding.

Originally posted by junzo316

My wish is that crafters would be able to make something comparable.  I enjoy crafting in this game, its one of the reasons I chose to sub, but lately it seems they are forgetting about us in favor of gear-based raiding.

I agree that top tier crafting has been rendered somewhat useless in the armor and weapon making crafts.  However, we Supreme Master jewellers are still in demand.  (Sublime dawn-rose jewelry still sells very well)  So, I suppose, I could see ultra-rare recipes dropping from mobs that allow you to craft non-radiance armor with similar stats as the radiance armor pieces.

Another point that I missed in my earlier posts is that raiding gives people with more time to play more things to do.  If it were not for raids, those of us whose RL situation gives us more time to play than most people, would get bored and eventually unsub from LotRO.  Turbine seems to understand this and provides these raids to keep that group playing until new content is released.  It does not, however, change the fact that non-raiders have no need of raid-acquired gear.

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by thorwood

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

No other armor in the game is close to matching the statistics of the radiance gear.

Forgetting about the radiance statistic, are you saying that the radiance gear has no benefit outside of raids?

If the higher armor class etc has no benefit why does the armor even have these "useless" attributes?

 

Actually, thank you for purposely missing the point of my post.  It's always fun to explain things in a less intelligent manner to the entitlement crowd.   Though radiance armor may have slightly better stats than its non-radiance counterparts (and here I refer to the copper coin armor that drops in the same instances and the teal armor obtainable from doing the Moria epic quests) you DO NOT NEED RADIANCE ARMOR IF YOU DO NOT RAID.    Have you gotten to level 60 without radiance armor?  Were you able to finish the quest lines (rep and otherwise) that get you into Lothlorien?  Have you been able to complete deeds in Moria, Eregion and Lorien without the radiance armor?   What about leveling your legendary weapon and class item?  Were you able to do that without radiance armor?

I believe that people who are complaining here would only have a legitimate basis for complaint if, it turns out, in future books (like the anticipated opening of southern Mirkwood in the next book) that you would be unable to complete non-raid pve without the radiance gear.  Otherwise, what do you propose? RMTs that give you access to radiance armor for RL cash?  Mobs that drop radiance gear as loot?  What is it that you non-raiders want?  It is like minority position in politics ... you have not successfully convinced the majority of your position.  Try again and we'll reconsider our position if you come up with better supported arguments.

Skooma, the real problem is that in SOA everyone was allowed to go everywhere and be part of the story. The only thing holding you back was getting the people to do it. Want to do the Rift? Get to 50. Want to do Helegorod? Get to 50. Want to do basically anything at endgame just get to 50 and have fun.

That has changed. Want to do the Watcher get to 60 AND grind 6 instances over and over until you get your gated radiance gear. The problem isn't the gear it's the accessability of the game that is pissing off most of the crowd in LOTRO. When most people came into the game they knew they were going to get to see everything or almost everything, as long as they got the people together. Now you have a huge division among people in game and a fractured community. A community fractured is a community doomed.

LOTRO has always been a newb friendly, fairly casual game that was accessible. To change this is to push fans away.

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by junzo316

My wish is that crafters would be able to make something comparable.  I enjoy crafting in this game, its one of the reasons I chose to sub, but lately it seems they are forgetting about us in favor of gear-based raiding.

 

I agree that top tier crafting has been rendered somewhat useless in the armor and weapon making crafts.  However, we Supreme Master jewellers are still in demand.  (Sublime dawn-rose jewelry still sells very well)  So, I suppose, I could see ultra-rare recipes dropping from mobs that allow you to craft non-radiance armor with similar stats as the radiance armor pieces.

Another point that I missed in my earlier posts is that raiding gives people with more time to play more things to do.  If it were not for raids, those of us whose RL situation gives us more time to play than most people, would get bored and eventually unsub from LotRO.  Turbine seems to understand this and provides these raids to keep that group playing until new content is released.  It does not, however, change the fact that non-raiders have no need of raid-acquired gear.

You can have raids and time consuming grinds without it being gated.

I'm sorry but if your MMO has an endgame raiding mechanic it needs gated gear grinds.

You should have to collect specific gear to handle the next raid in your guilds progression.

Raiders know this and anyone bitching and mouning about it should chill out and just progress slowly with there guild and not try to be content whores.

Edit: If noone knows what a "Content Whore" is its a player that bitches and mouns that they have to be stuck in a particular raid progression due to lack of gear. They cry because they want to complete all the content without putting the effort required to obtain the Requisite gear for that level of progression.

Couple of comments here:

First off, as others have said - if you don't care about the 1 (2?) raids at present where you *must* have this armor, you don't need it. For anything, yeah the stats may be a token bit better - but not enough to seriously impact gameplay. PvMP is a pointless bad joke anyways, so don't try and cry about it mattering there.

Top tier crafting has some issues atm - but most can (and do) still profit mightily from them. I make 10g+ a week selling crafted 51st+ armors and all of my 60th characters are still wearing pieces of crafted stuff, using crafted potions, shield spikes, traps, scrolls etc.

Simply put: It's too soon to panic and emoragequit over radiance gating. It was only added in Moria (ya know like the last big expansion) and only becomes a long term issue if it is continued. So long as the next expansion and newer content doesn't force me into radiance gear, who cares? Let it be a perk for those with the time and dedication to get it.

The problem I see with making the radiance gear more available generally is that it is going to upset the raiding crowd who DID those instances over and over to get the gear thereby having WORKED toward being able to challenge the Watcher.   So, if you accurately represent the position of the non-raiding crowd, we do have a house divided, and we all know what Honest Abe said about a house divided.

So, if the issue is accessability to the Watcher and Dar Nargulub instances, and if we have to take into account that the raiders would be ticked off if their gear were more easily available, I propose that Turbine do the following:

Implement 3 man instances that drop radiance armor (thus allowing access to the Watcher and DN) but with lesser stats than the radiance armor obtainable in the larger, more difficult and more time consuming 6 man instances.  The 3 man instances would make it easier to find groups, and the time, to do these instances and obtain radiance pieces, but recognizes the risk/reward ratio of the more difficult instances.

 Much ado about nothing.

Those who don't raid, don't care.  <---- I'm in this group.
Those who don't care, don't care.
Those who raid, shouldn't complain about gear gating if they truly call themselves raiders.

As has been previously mentioned my biggest complaint is that the radiance gear (and some rep rewards) has killed crafted gear.  And that the 6 man gear grind has indeed created a subset of raiders in the game that I wish would just go away because the community is starting to look more like WoW's with each passing day.  Nothing but people whining about hardcore vs. casual, gear, and raiding.

F that.  That's why I quit WoW and don't play LotRO much anymore despite my lifetime subscription.

Originally posted by seabass2003

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by thorwood

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

No other armor in the game is close to matching the statistics of the radiance gear.

Forgetting about the radiance statistic, are you saying that the radiance gear has no benefit outside of raids?

If the higher armor class etc has no benefit why does the armor even have these "useless" attributes?

 

Actually, thank you for purposely missing the point of my post.  It's always fun to explain things in a less intelligent manner to the entitlement crowd.   Though radiance armor may have slightly better stats than its non-radiance counterparts (and here I refer to the copper coin armor that drops in the same instances and the teal armor obtainable from doing the Moria epic quests) you DO NOT NEED RADIANCE ARMOR IF YOU DO NOT RAID.    Have you gotten to level 60 without radiance armor?  Were you able to finish the quest lines (rep and otherwise) that get you into Lothlorien?  Have you been able to complete deeds in Moria, Eregion and Lorien without the radiance armor?   What about leveling your legendary weapon and class item?  Were you able to do that without radiance armor?

I believe that people who are complaining here would only have a legitimate basis for complaint if, it turns out, in future books (like the anticipated opening of southern Mirkwood in the next book) that you would be unable to complete non-raid pve without the radiance gear.  Otherwise, what do you propose? RMTs that give you access to radiance armor for RL cash?  Mobs that drop radiance gear as loot?  What is it that you non-raiders want?  It is like minority position in politics ... you have not successfully convinced the majority of your position.  Try again and we'll reconsider our position if you come up with better supported arguments.

Skooma, the real problem is that in SOA everyone was allowed to go everywhere and be part of the story. The only thing holding you back was getting the people to do it. Want to do the Rift? Get to 50. Want to do Helegorod? Get to 50. Want to do basically anything at endgame just get to 50 and have fun.

That has changed. Want to do the Watcher get to 60 AND grind 6 instances over and over until you get your gated radiance gear. The problem isn't the gear it's the accessability of the game that is pissing off most of the crowd in LOTRO. When most people came into the game they knew they were going to get to see everything or almost everything, as long as they got the people together. Now you have a huge division among people in game and a fractured community. A community fractured is a community doomed.

LOTRO has always been a newb friendly, fairly casual game that was accessible. To change this is to push fans away.

Unfortunally we are heavly divided to the point this overflowed the LOTRO forums and wound up here and the post that you read with the elite raiders going you don't need the gear to the don't care and inbetween already being heard.  The comunity is heavly divided and glff is full of hate now days to the point of seing gm pop in when certain individuals heat it up again.  They are loosing subs daily, and once a month or more now you get the weelcome back weekend that turns into the welcome back for 2 weeks, trying to get folks to come back to the same old game they already left.  I hardly play anymore myself as LOTRO has went to wow and is going wow more and more every day.  What happenes when your going to need 70 rad to go into murkwood on the next expansion.

People got bored and left when they capped out at 50 too....that has as much to do with people leaving as the radiance complaints...yeah its a problem, but a) not as widespread as the forum warriors make it out to be and b) turbine is already seriously aware of it.

Stop panic mongering already and see what changes. *IF* Mirkwood is radiance-gated too or all the big raids are and they don't make any changes...then panic. Heck, if that comes about *I'll* start cheerleading for the doomsayers. Until then, people need to chill a bit.

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by thorwood

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

No other armor in the game is close to matching the statistics of the radiance gear.

Forgetting about the radiance statistic, are you saying that the radiance gear has no benefit outside of raids?

If the higher armor class etc has no benefit why does the armor even have these "useless" attributes?

 

Actually, thank you for purposely missing the point of my post.  It's always fun to explain things in a less intelligent manner to the entitlement crowd.   Though radiance armor may have slightly better stats than its non-radiance counterparts (and here I refer to the copper coin armor that drops in the same instances and the teal armor obtainable from doing the Moria epic quests) you DO NOT NEED RADIANCE ARMOR IF YOU DO NOT RAID.    Have you gotten to level 60 without radiance armor?  Were you able to finish the quest lines (rep and otherwise) that get you into Lothlorien?  Have you been able to complete deeds in Moria, Eregion and Lorien without the radiance armor?   What about leveling your legendary weapon and class item?  Were you able to do that without radiance armor?

I believe that people who are complaining here would only have a legitimate basis for complaint if, it turns out, in future books (like the anticipated opening of southern Mirkwood in the next book) that you would be unable to complete non-raid pve without the radiance gear.  Otherwise, what do you propose? RMTs that give you access to radiance armor for RL cash?  Mobs that drop radiance gear as loot?  What is it that you non-raiders want?  It is like minority position in politics ... you have not successfully convinced the majority of your position.  Try again and we'll reconsider our position if you come up with better supported arguments.

Thankyou for purposely missing the point of my post.

Yes, I agree you do not need radiance gear to complete the solo content.  I completed crafting, traits and reached level 60.

However, those with radiance gear do the solo content much easier.  The difference between radiance gear and solo gear is huge, not a marginal improvement as you imply.  I would agree with you if the raid gear gave no extra benefit outside the raid.  However, that is not the case.  Why should those who do not raid or do the generic group endgame instances not have gear that gives similar benefits when not raiding?  I just believe that solo players should be able to get gear that gives similar benefits when doing solo play. I would like to see solo content added for level 60 players, just as it has been added for raiders and groups.

And now you are inventing statistics when you say you are in the majority position.

I have to admit that I had the hubris to assume that my position was in the majority.  In that you are correct. 

But, we have a basic difference of opinion.  Unfortunately, if raid-quality gear becomes generally accessible, the raiders will stop raiding because there is no purpose to it.  For example, why fight for 3 hours to have a 1/12 chance to obtain a particular piece of gear if I can obtain it in a quicker fashion elsewhere?   Once that happens, it leaves those of us who reached "end-game" with nothing to do, which does not bode well for continued subscriptions.

On the other hand, if raid-quality gear does NOT become generally accessible, the non-raiders will get upset and may leave the game as a result.

I don't have a solution and I do not envy Turbine attempting to address everyone's concerns in this matter, because I do not see how they can make both sides of this question happy.

I actually do have a solution, it's a fairly simple one. The current raids that require radiance gear stay unchanged, but they become the "hard" mode of those raids, they are then reworked to have a "basic" mode in which radiance gear is not required to complete them - but the rewards/drops are lowered a bit.

It's not a perfect answer, but it's one in which the hardcore raiders get to keep the cool gear and there is still a noticable benefit to it, while casual raiders get to "do" the content anyways.

I do not know if that will solve the problem.  A lot of the people who complain do not like to, or do not have the time to, do these instances.   I believe that is where the complaints originate from.  So, giving them the instances to do without radiance gear does not help them, because they (for whatever reason) do not do the radiance instances in the first place, and the lack of necessity of the use of radiance gear is not going to make them do the instances.

>shrug< It would work for me...and it addresses the only really valid complaint...

I can understand and agree with those who say "we just want to raid the watcher/Dn and don't have the time/kin/desire to do endless hard mode 6mans to get radiance suits"...that's a valid complaint. No prior raids in LotRO required that level of prior work to even enter. You *could* raid the Rift in whatever gear you felt like and everyone, even PuGs could try it. So giving these folks access to an "easy mode" Watcher/DN raid makes sense and makes the "content" accessible to all players.

Those who are just whining about it because they want the shinies can go pound sand for all I care. There really is NO need for radiance gear outside of those two raids and I'd be just as happy if all the number maxxing frustrated power gamers who claim they have to have it to be equal gave up and left :)

Originally posted by Skooma2

  I believe that people who are complaining here would only have a legitimate basis for complaint if, it turns out, in future books (like the anticipated opening of southern Mirkwood in the next book) that you would be unable to complete non-raid pve without the radiance gear.  Otherwise, what do you propose? RMTs that give you access to radiance armor for RL cash?  Mobs that drop radiance gear as loot?  What is it that you non-raiders want?  It is like minority position in politics ... you have not successfully convinced the majority of your position.  Try again and we'll reconsider our position if you come up with better supported arguments.

What do non-raiders want?   Speaking for myself, I want a way to continue to improve my character at the max level without ever once being forced to group to do so.

As for the off-touted line: "If you don't raid, you don't need it" - first off, need is irrelevant.   Acquiring new shinies is fun.  FUN is the only reason to play a game, unless you're somehow making a real life profit off of it.

Here would be one method I would find acceptable for raid-only gear:   any and all gear acquired in a raid can only be used in that raid.  It cannot be worn, displayed, or even stored anywhere outside of the instance.   Kind of like a locker room where your raid gear is stored that cannot be taken 'outside'.    Proudly showing off the gear you've acquired is only permitted inside the instance beacause after all, if you aren't raiding, you don't need it.

IMO, it's wrong wrong wrong of MMOs to let you solo and improve your character to the end game, then require to group to continue that advancement.

Originally posted by Skooma2

I have to admit that I had the hubris to assume that my position was in the majority.  In that you are correct. 

 

But, we have a basic difference of opinion.  Unfortunately, if raid-quality gear becomes generally accessible, the raiders will stop raiding because there is no purpose to it.  For example, why fight for 3 hours to have a 1/12 chance to obtain a particular piece of gear if I can obtain it in a quicker fashion elsewhere?   Once that happens, it leaves those of us who reached "end-game" with nothing to do, which does not bode well for continued subscriptions.

 

On the other hand, if raid-quality gear does NOT become generally accessible, the non-raiders will get upset and may leave the game as a result.

 

I don't have a solution and I do not envy Turbine attempting to address everyone's concerns in this matter, because I do not see how they can make both sides of this question happy.

The solution is alternatives.

To acquire shiny #3874, you can:

A) go on a 3 hour raid and get that 1/12 shot you mentioned

B)go on a 30 hour soloable quest chain that takes you all over map

The 30 figure is debatable but whatever length you choose, it could be done so that one method wasn't obviously easier/quicker than the other.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not done in any MMO in existance, most likely due to programming resources required.   But that doesn't mean it's not possible.

MMO's have always been about endgame raid content being only accessable to certain people - usually those who have large guilds and lots of time.

if you can't deal with this then maybe MMO's aren't for you.

What is up with this sense of entitlement people have now a days? Everyone is not freaking equal in money, time to play, size of guild etc. Deal with it. if they make it so everyone can get the cool armor then guess what? It's not cool anymore! Then the achievers don't want to play your game and they all quit. The casuals who never cared int he first place still don't care. the only people you are appeasing are the wannabees who are mad they can't be leet. Once all the real hard core players leave and all you have are the wannabees they'll run off to go play the next thing all the hard core players are gonna play becasue thats the 'cool thing to play."

This is just like how now in little league they give trophies to everyone even the last place team, freaking pathetic.

Originally posted by SwampRob

 Acquiring new shinies is fun.  FUN is the only reason to play a game,

I agree, and the path to acquire those shinies is already in game. If you truely thought it was fun, you'd be doing it. *YOU* are simply unwilling or unable to do what it requires to get these specific shinies; Too bad, there are lots of others and other things to do.

In a *story* driven game like LotRO, wanting to be able to complete the story and the journey is natural. The watcher raid (and to a lesser extent Dn) were made part of the story, thus everyone should be able to experience them in the course of normal gameplay. The requirement to have a good Kin and run many many "hard mode" 6 man instances to experience that content *is* unreasonable in the context of the game. That is what Turbine needs to address.

Wanting to possess the best of the best gear (regardless of game) is just powergaming, period. Nothing wrong with it, but admit it! Getting that gear requires investments of time, relationships and raiding - all powergamers know this. It is the subset of "frustrated power gamers" who still feel this drive to have the best of the best, but cannot or will not make the investments to get it that drive me nuts - because you are demanding the very nature of the game change to accomodate *you*. Were you also whining back in the day that you "deserved" access to the drops from the Balrog in the rift? If not, why not? How was it any different?

Sigh.

First - just because MMOs have always been that way, doesn't mean they have to be that way.  

Second - it has nothing to do with entitlement, other than entitlement to the opportunity.  I'm not asking it be quicker or easier or faster or shorter or cheaper than raiding, just that another option be possible.

Why is it that raiding is the only acceptable method of acquiring the best gear?   Why does it have to be?

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by SwampRob

 Acquiring new shinies is fun.  FUN is the only reason to play a game,

 

I agree, and the path to acquire those shinies is already in game. If you truely thought it was fun, you'd be doing it. *YOU* are simply unwilling or unable to do what it requires to get these specific shinies

 

Agreed.

This is really a simple argument.

There are obviously quite a few people willing to put in the time and effort to raid and get the uber gear that they want.  There is another subset of people who aren't willing to go through those same motions, but still want the gear (i.e. they actually want the devs to spend time, effort, and money adjusting their design and altering their code to cater specifically to their situation).  This is entitlement (with maybe a little sprinkling of jealousy).

Since there are people willing to do what is required, that's really all that needs to be said.  If no one was getting raid gear, the whiners might have a point.  But they have the option of getting raid gear and are actively choosing not to (regardless of what the excuse may be, they are making the choice).

Frankly I think it would be a lot of fun to own a Ferrari, but I haven't worked hard enough and saved enough (yet) to be able to afford one.  I guess I could go to the Ferrari forums and whine about the lack of alternative acquisition methods, but I would be just as full of shit as the people whining about radiance gear.

Honestly if the lack of radiance gear is hampering the fun factor so much, there's the door.

(Btw I don't have the gear either, heh).

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by SwampRob

 Acquiring new shinies is fun.  FUN is the only reason to play a game,

 

I agree, and the path to acquire those shinies is already in game. If you truely thought it was fun, you'd be doing it. *YOU* are simply unwilling or unable to do what it requires to get these specific shinies; Too bad, there are lots of others and other things to do.

In a *story* driven game like LotRO, wanting to be able to complete the story and the journey is natural. The watcher raid (and to a lesser extent Dn) were made part of the story, thus everyone should be able to experience them in the course of normal gameplay. The requirement to have a good Kin and run many many "hard mode" 6 man instances to experience that content *is* unreasonable in the context of the game. That is what Turbine needs to address.

Wanting to possess the best of the best gear (regardless of game) is just powergaming, period. Nothing wrong with it, but admit it! Getting that gear requires investments of time, relationships and raiding - all powergamers know this. It is the subset of "frustrated power gamers" who still feel this drive to have the best of the best, but cannot or will not make the investments to get it that drive me nuts - because you are demanding the very nature of the game change to accomodate *you*. Were you also whining back in the day that you "deserved" access to the drops from the Balrog in the rift? If not, why not? How was it any different?

 

I am tired of the raid scene and group scene. I did the raid scene in Everquest and quite frankly raids in other games are poor in comparison. I chose not to raid.  For me raiding was mostly boring with only about 10% of encounters being fun.

Gandalf is character in book that was very solitary and seemed to solo for most of the book.  Gollum was hardly a team player.

We are not one of the members of the fellowship, so there is no reason why cannot experience Tolkien's wolrd in our own way and chose solo, group or raid content.

It is only at level 60 that the game changes and all of a sudden, after 60 levels of solo content, you find that there is no solo content.

Balrog drops were not an issue for me.  The crafted gear was good and when I reached level 50, MInes of Moria was already out with gear for solo players that was comparable.  I was never forced to do the Balrog because there was solo content that gave equivalent rewards.

If the raids are so much fun, people will chose to do them instead of solo content.  I do not see why raiders care that many players want endgame solo content.  If raids are not as much fun as the raiders would have us believe, then that makes raiding a niche game.

Just because early games like Everquest were raiding focused, does not mean that other games should follow the same script.

Originally posted by Skooma2

It may have been said before in other threads, but it bears repeating here:  If you do not raid in LotRO, you have no need of radiance armor.   Radiance armor is acquired through six 6 person instances (completed in hard mode).  Admittedly, it is far easier to acquire this type of armor if you have a kin that frequently runs these instances.  The armor pieces are attainable with PUGs, but, of course it is more difficult when you have people who do not ordinarily play together.

What people are complaining about is a new 12 man raid called Dar Nargubud (or something close).   In order not to stand there cowering when you enter, and during boss fights, you generally need 60 radiance armor.   What is the big deal loot that people are looking for in this instance?  Armor with a higher radiance rating.   However, if you do not raid, you have no need for radiance armor.    There is no non-raid pve situation where radiance armor is required; and I am not aware of any pvmp situation where radiance armor provides any benefit.

Maybe it's because Turbine in their infinite wisdom, has chosen to make raiding the highest path of progression, just like the other loser MMOs on the market.  Just because you're casual or hardcore but hate raiding, doesn't mean you aren't interested in progressing your character, you know, the very basis of RPGs.

Originally posted by thorwood

Balrog drops were not an issue for me.  The crafted gear was good and when I reached level 50, MInes of Moria was already out with gear for solo players that was comparable.  I was never forced to do the Balrog because there was solo content that gave equivalent rewards.

So, because you came late to the game and lack understanding, the game must change to suit you? LotRO has *never* had "solo content that gave equivalent rewards"...NEVER. Rift armor was as much better than the 47th crafted then (the best at the time) as Radiance gear is better than the 58th crafted is now. No difference whatsoever.

At every stage of levelling in LotRO there are group instances/dungeons/quests that give *better* gear for that level than found elsewhere. You can solo past it because the levelling is so fast and even "group" 25th level gear is generally worse than "solo" 27-28th gear anyways...but grouping ALWAYS gave better rewards - you just chose not to do it. 

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think you deserve as "solo content" at 60th?  I mostly solo; I explore and do quests in Moria and Lothlorien. I make lots of money, kill lots of things, have over a dozen instances that I can do solo, deeds I can complete, traits I can earn... In other words, I can do exactly all same sorts of things I did from 1-60 solo....the game hasn't changed at all.
How much MORE should you be able to do solo?

By arguing this, "...doesn't mean you aren't interested in progressing your character" , you are effectively saying that gear is the only way you define progress. Which is flatly untrue in LotRO.  This is all about a token few pieces of gear, that are only needed for a tiny number of specific encounters...nothing more.

I agree that gear should not be the only measure of progress.

Unfortunately, LoTRO has gear as the only measure of progress in the endgame.  And this endgame content has been limited to group and raid players.  If gear was not the measure of progress, the raid gear would be same as the best crafted gear with only the radiance statistic added.  This is not the case.

I don't deserve endgame solo content anymore than the raiders and group players deserve endgame raid or group content.

I do think that if endgame content can be added for group and raid play, it can also be added for solo play.

Traits and crafting is something that is available for all players, regardless of whether they solo, group or raid.  I do not see why you think this is additional solo content when it is there for ally styles of play.

I completed the solo instances and faction with Moria guards and miners before I reached level 60, so I would hardly call it endgame content.  The crafting instances were added for peak time players who were competing for the same resource nodes. For off-peak players there were plenty of nodes.   I completed the crafting prior to the crafting instances being added.

I loved Mines of Moria and there did seem to be a lot of content while reaching level 60.  The expansion was worth every cent.

*sigh*

How is it that you fail to see that the game *doesn't* change at 60th? LotRO has always been a game where there was more content available to those who group. From the earliest days of your character onwards there is constant group content. Yes, you can solo past it, but it is there. Thus from day one, those willing to group have access to more content than a complete soloist. It is a *group* game.

There is no "mystical change" at 60th where suddenly they yank all solo content; there is just as much as ever...it's just not possible for you to level past the group stuff anymore.

I ask again, what more *specifically* do you want added as "solo content"? More areas to explore? They do that, with regularity. More quests? Ditto. New loot drops, mobs to kill, deeds? Ditto ditto and ditto. Even, *gasp* the occasional solo instance - yep. Of course all that content *can* be done by those who group too, duh, how could it be any different? (Reality check here, ALL content is available to all players - no one forces you not to group. Absolutely clueless how you think anyone is supposed to add "solo" content and stop players who group from accessing it when they solo, so that argument is complete junk)

So, what exactly is it that you want? Other than the handful of previously discussed shinies?

Also, just because you have "done it" doesn't mean it's not endgame content. That's one of the more ridiculous arguments I have seen yet. I've done all the instances too, but they still remain a source of variety and options of things to do when levelling legendaries or collecting tradeskill stuff, same with the repeatable quests. A true crafter is never *done* with crafting, I still run the "crafting" instances to get materials because I am constantly selling product. There are stil lplenty of "kill" deeds I can work on - either in instances or roaming.

A whole lot of your complaint sounds more and more like you just want more *new* content and that it really has nothing to do with soloing vs group. Hate to say it, but short of getting that job coding with Turbine there's not a lot you can do to speed that up.

I disagree with your opinion that LoTRO  is a group game.  LoTRO is a game for solo and group players.

Veteran players reached the cap for traits at level 50.  I find it hard to see how you consider this endgame now that the level cap is 60.  If the cap on traits had been raised, then I would agree.

Maybe I  missed some instances or Turbine's advertising about the added content misled me.  What are the 12 endgame solo instances?

The only instances I recall were in Dolven View. From memory, 2 were about level 59 and the other 4 were about level 54 and level 57.  You could call 2 of them level 60 instances.  That makes 2 instances you can do once every 24 hours.

I know they added the crafting instances after I left the game.  These were specifically advertised as being for crafters to get resource nodes.  I did not need resources as the resource nodes are plentiful in Moria. It was the shards that I needed.  Did the crafting instances offer anything besides the advertised resources?

Turbine advertised the Lorien content as group and raid content. There was not one word about solo content.  Was there solo content?