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Lord of the Rings Online Forum » General Discussion » Turbine threatens to ban players for pursuing refunds of their new expansion

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156 posts found
  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

6/14/12 3:15:49 PM#61
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by Liknvi

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=6232652#post6232652

Turbine has thrown some shiny apology toys. I refuse to accept this, however.

Additionally, some players had questions about the instance cluster coming after the launch of RoR. While we are still not ready to talk about the details of the cluster we did want to confirm that we will be releasing a new instance cluster in an update after Rohan launches, and that the cluster will be free to all players who have purchased the Riders of Rohan expansion. 

 

Isn't that what you wanted?  The inclusion of the instance cluster?

 

Its calld customer relations. Turbine had false advertisment, ontop of that lying to the public, threatening to ban accounts, lying to BBB. 

The instances was included because of their loss of $$

  Liknvi

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 12

6/14/12 3:18:14 PM#62

It certainly was. However, this entire process of getting them to listen has been a bit ridiculous, and what evidence do I have that I won't be forced into this same process for every expansion?

  Wayshuba

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 71

6/15/12 5:09:24 PM#63
Originally posted by RathanX26

Ok, I don't want to be a jerk but i am going to say something that is going to sound entirely too much like that of a jerk, so forgive me. Legally, you only have two courses of action:

A.) Dispute the claim with your bank and get your money back and have your account banned.

B.) Sadly, do nothing.

Reason why i am stating the obvious is this, you don't own the legal property from MMO's, you rent them. Same thing for all games that you buy.

Once you agree to those terms and conditions and apply the pre-order to the account, you have locked yourself in to all those terms and conditions which we all agree to and never actually read. Although i don't know what the terms and conditons are with LOTRO, i can say that with other games when i have bothered to read them, they make you agree to things that are just downright crazy sometimes. And the one standard that you will see stated in every one is

"We reserve the right to deactivate your account or suspend use of services for any reason."

Chances are, because you accepted this things, your not going to get anywhere. I feel for you, truely, but unless you can afford a lengthly legal battle, your stuck.

Actually no, there is a lot more that can be done legally on this. You see, the other thing Turbine set themselves up with is pre-purchase (not pre-order) meaning a customer paid in full. This sets up a whole new slew of regulation and legal obligations than a deposit only pre-order does.

 

There are already enough screenshots to prove what is happening with RoR in this case, including threats and coercion (Yes, stating you may ban an account for seeking a refund on an undelivered component of it is outright coercion which, in the State of Masschusetts, is a general civil offense under General Laws 93). Turbine are idiots for documenting such in the e-mail reply will most likely lose them a case in court. Second, if evidence could be presented that this is a repeat offense (informational misdirection) such as with RoI, which there are plenty of screenshots from lotrocommunity.com to show, the court may in fact find that Turbine is intentionally practicing deceptive business practices - and that could open the liability up in the millions.

 

I encourage someone to check with a class action law firm in Boston area, present them the evidence, fill them in on the repeat offenses, let them know Turbine is owned by WB (thereby letting them know there is a company with big pockets), and see if they will pursue the case. That e-mail response alone would have many with their chops salvating. Remember, these firms do not charge the plaintiff any fees, instead they go after fee reimbursement from the defendants. Turbine's repeat predatory business practices need to be stopped as it just keeps getting worse.

 

I hope someone exposed to the damage from this has the courage to finally put them through the ringer for this. They only brought it on themselves. At the very least, if a case was filed, WB would most likely terminate the employees responsible to protect their backside and say they were unaware this was happening and took appropriate disciplinary action when it was brought to their attention.

  Torluk

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/09
Posts: 166

6/15/12 10:08:58 PM#64
Originally posted by Icewhite

Companies seem to be tiring of certain types of the most vocal high-maintenance customers.

How dare companies address legitimate complaints of customers who they have deceived through their own documentation, what ridiculous demands these customers are making Icewhite.

/sincerity on.

  User Deleted
6/16/12 4:23:15 AM#65

They also locked and deleted a bunch of threads on the off topic forum which existed for months if not years and which were talking about other games. They also gave infractions and bans to random posters of those threads.

Insecure much, Turbine?

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

6/16/12 5:54:16 AM#66
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

They also locked and deleted a bunch of threads on the off topic forum which existed for months if not years and which were talking about other games. They also gave infractions and bans to random posters of those threads.

Insecure much, Turbine?

Not getting into the discussion of what went down over expansion....

 

The "dont talk about other games on our forums" I can totally understand. If you wanna talk about those games, do it on someone else's bandwidth. The MMO space is a dog eat dog arena. You sure dont want your customers thinking about other ventures. That would akin to stepping on your own tallywacker....which it sounds like they did anyways pertaining to expansion.

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  User Deleted
6/16/12 7:05:13 AM#67
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

They also locked and deleted a bunch of threads on the off topic forum which existed for months if not years and which were talking about other games. They also gave infractions and bans to random posters of those threads.

Insecure much, Turbine?

Not getting into the discussion of what went down over expansion....

 

The "dont talk about other games on our forums" I can totally understand. If you wanna talk about those games, do it on someone else's bandwidth. The MMO space is a dog eat dog arena. You sure dont want your customers thinking about other ventures. That would akin to stepping on your own tallywacker....which it sounds like they did anyways pertaining to expansion.

Then they must make a change of policy and warn posters, and not just arbitrarily nuke posts (and people) suddenly for something that has been authorized for several years.

It's obvious that it shows their insecurity about their own product, and it's obvious LOTRO isn't doing well... when dictator style moderation appears out of nowhere, it's never a good sign.

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

6/16/12 7:08:51 AM#68

If they promise new instances and then removes them after people have ordered the game, people have the right to get a refund. Did they even threaten? didn't know a company with such a community would do something like that. Wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard did it though ,cause they are all dickheads.

  User Deleted
6/16/12 7:14:50 AM#69


Originally posted by InFlamestwo If they promise new instances and then removes them after people have ordered the game, people have the right to get a refund. Did they even threaten? didn't know a company with such a community would do something like that. Wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard did it though ,cause they are all dickheads.
Turbine also promised an additional inventory bag for all preorders of Rohan, and then they only put it in the most expensive version of the expansion, which costs more than a brand new complete game.

The time of "powered by our fans" is over at Turbine - and I've been a fan for over 10 years, being an avid player of Asheron's Call 1 too. Now its "powered by our fan's wallets" all the way. They have become 10x worse "dickheads", as you say, than Blizzard ever was.

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2799

6/16/12 8:10:46 AM#70
Originally posted by bigsmiff

Lotro is the best PvE game currently on the market IMHO. 

Huh?  Is this a joke?  It has combat speed catered to the elderly and barely adds content. They also never figured out how to fix the bugs with the Dragon raid released last year where you'd get no loot and have to wait a week to try again.

  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

6/16/12 8:15:58 AM#71

I don't think this will help the conversation or not; but in general I find pre-orders to be a scam.

Early access to beta being a "prize" is just as bad as this in my opinion.

a yo ho ho

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

6/16/12 8:27:37 AM#72
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

They also locked and deleted a bunch of threads on the off topic forum which existed for months if not years and which were talking about other games. They also gave infractions and bans to random posters of those threads.

Insecure much, Turbine?

Not getting into the discussion of what went down over expansion....

 

The "dont talk about other games on our forums" I can totally understand. If you wanna talk about those games, do it on someone else's bandwidth. The MMO space is a dog eat dog arena. You sure dont want your customers thinking about other ventures. That would akin to stepping on your own tallywacker....which it sounds like they did anyways pertaining to expansion.

Then correct thing to do is to set rules like that. Post them in relevant (sub)forum, as other games were discussed in "off-topic", explain this to consumers and then close topics.

I am sure most people would understand.

 

Instead after long years after this was permissable (to speak about other games in off-topic forum), Turbine jsut silently nuked those topcis and handed out bans left and right.

 

Pathetic.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2405

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

6/16/12 8:29:46 AM#73
Originally posted by leojreimroc

In case you haven't heard, there's a bit of drama going on in the LOTRO world.  Turbine had promised on a FAQ to include an instance cluster with the expansion.  This statement was later removed and there is in fact no instances coming with the expansion.  This of course, angered quite a few who pre-ordered the expansion thinking they would get some instances included with their purchase.  They're flat out refusing refunds and threatening account bans if anyone pursues it.....

 

Here's the forum post with a screenshot of the email from Turbine:

 

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?463712-No-instance-cluster-So-what&p=6230806#post6230806

 

Really crooked of Turbine to state something about an upcomming product then changing it after selling a bunch of them.

 

-Edit-

 

Link to the email below if you don't feel like going on the turbine forums:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/turbineemail.png/

Odd how you leave out the part that says this person already recieved benefits to the account from ordering the expansion. That looks to be the reason for the possible banning, what would you expect a company to do? They state it pretty simple, if this person is going to dispute charges then the account will have action taken against it. How do you jusitfy getting services that you don't pay for? If you don't pay your internet bill, you don't continue to get it for free, unless you are, to use one of your own words, "crooked".

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

6/16/12 8:40:16 AM#74

I lost all respect for Turbine when they chose to go paytrap with LOTRO...it went against everything the industry knows. DDO was a massive hit with F2P because it was F2P with a store with great items...they made a TON of money like all really good F2Ps do, no paytrap has ever been close to being as successful(Money wise) as the better F2Ps.

Turbine deserves to lose money for doing what they did with LOTRO, the game should be making more than Runes of Magic and Atlantica Online COMBINED...instead, it isnt even doing half what either of those games are making. Its the same with Funcom and AoC, Sony and EQ2 and even DCUO....all of them should be making far more than any of the F2Ps out there because of the quality and depth they bring.

Instead, they are making a fraction of what they would be because its just a paytrap...games that arent good enough to sub for in the first place, which is why the populations dropped so much, makes no sense to use a paytrap model with games that are near death.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

6/16/12 10:13:29 AM#75
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by leojreimroc

In case you haven't heard, there's a bit of drama going on in the LOTRO world.  Turbine had promised on a FAQ to include an instance cluster with the expansion.  This statement was later removed and there is in fact no instances coming with the expansion.  This of course, angered quite a few who pre-ordered the expansion thinking they would get some instances included with their purchase.  They're flat out refusing refunds and threatening account bans if anyone pursues it.....

 

Here's the forum post with a screenshot of the email from Turbine:

 

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?463712-No-instance-cluster-So-what&p=6230806#post6230806

 

Really crooked of Turbine to state something about an upcomming product then changing it after selling a bunch of them.

 

-Edit-

 

Link to the email below if you don't feel like going on the turbine forums:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/turbineemail.png/

Odd how you leave out the part that says this person already recieved benefits to the account from ordering the expansion. That looks to be the reason for the possible banning, what would you expect a company to do? They state it pretty simple, if this person is going to dispute charges then the account will have action taken against it. How do you jusitfy getting services that you don't pay for? If you don't pay your internet bill, you don't continue to get it for free, unless you are, to use one of your own words, "crooked".

Refund was possible because of Turbine changing content of what was selling. Only because of that. 

So it was Turbine fault and reponsibility not user's.

Secondly they could withdraw expansion access from those user's who had valid refunds.

If they technically could not do it -  it is only their own fault.

  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

6/16/12 12:26:36 PM#76
Originally posted by rdrakken

I lost all respect for Turbine when they chose to go paytrap with LOTRO...it went against everything the industry knows. DDO was a massive hit with F2P because it was F2P with a store with great items...they made a TON of money like all really good F2Ps do, no paytrap has ever been close to being as successful(Money wise) as the better F2Ps.

Turbine deserves to lose money for doing what they did with LOTRO, the game should be making more than Runes of Magic and Atlantica Online COMBINED...instead, it isnt even doing half what either of those games are making. Its the same with Funcom and AoC, Sony and EQ2 and even DCUO....all of them should be making far more than any of the F2Ps out there because of the quality and depth they bring.

Instead, they are making a fraction of what they would be because its just a paytrap...games that arent good enough to sub for in the first place, which is why the populations dropped so much, makes no sense to use a paytrap model with games that are near death.

Agreed. For a Lotr genre, a mmo should be making 2nd to WoW (if WoW is still #1, that is) on the playerbase+money income. Lotr has an enormous amount of fans, but turbine has failed to deliver on many levels. People could say this isnt a pvp game, but for those lore-nerds isnt monsterplay part of the lore? Fighting the army of the eye on the well-known map ettenmoors and such.

When you said turbine deserves to lose money, they alrady are and going down really fast hence why free2play came. Not much people respect this company  not only on a personal level (being lyed to, financial, poor expansions), but for the outdated gameplay (Combat, graphics).

I have no sympathy for any turbine employes and i hope they get shut down for all the backstabbing they did to us loyal Lotr fans.

  Purutzil

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2910

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

6/16/12 12:38:46 PM#77

As soon as content they were promised is cut, they HAVE to give you a refund is how I see it. Sure when they give you access early I can see why it can be bad, but really I don't see anything they did give, a lot of the benefits seemed more related to goods after or that can be taken away. Just take them away and give people what they paid for, otherwise be willing to refund them. If you promise me gold for my money and you send me bronze, I sure as hell am will want a refund.

  Rhoklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 3145

$500 Backer to 2015's Top New MMO... The Repopulation!

6/16/12 12:47:32 PM#78

I guess it's amazing that while I never purchased a Lifetime account, but rather 2 normal accounts, that I am still enjoying every aspect of the game. So now, the new expansion failed to deliver some instances? You want your money back and they can't stop you, but they can render your account unplayable. I'll agree, Turbine probably crossed the line by taking out said content after purchases had already been made. So it boils down to, when did you purchase it and when did Turbine retract the statement in FAQ that instances were no longer included. Theres a lot of information your not telling us, so those things need to be clarifed before I'll point my finger.

I'm a veteran MMO player and every game I've ever played, had a EULA and every one of those specifically states, game design is subject to change up to including post release. I don't want to rain on your parade, but thats just how MMOs work and while it seems like dirty business, it's legit. Turbine isn't the only gaming company to do this sort of thing, but it's not like they are doing it on a regular basis, since this is the first I've heard of it.

Besides, the game is F2P, you can't tell me Turbine is being unreasonable with their pay model. I'm really sick of people whining about the cost of expansions and cash shop in a game that doesn't have a monthly fee. Just wait till GW2 releases, cause I bet they went F2P with cash shop for the very same reason, they'll make more money than a base monthly sub fee because there are alot of players with money to spend who make up for us cheap bastards who have no problem playing a F2P game without added benefits.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

6/16/12 12:48:13 PM#79

They are desperate.  Lotro was a great game for quite a while, but it is aging now, and Turbine's updates and expansions have been lackluster at best.  They've done little or nothing to breath life into this game, especially at the lower levels, since going free to play.  

New or re-rolling players are met with practically dead areas for the first long stretch of the game up until you start hitting the first expansion, Moria.  Then you may see a few more people.  They also haven't gone over the game in the lower levels and adjusted faction quests for players who cannot find groups to with which to complete them.

The one thing about this game for me has always been that it's just "meh".  I mean it's enjoyable, and it's polished, but there is nothing all that exciting about it, especially in a market that has moved on.  Bitch and complain as you will about WoW and the changes Blizz have made, but it has kept them in the money all this time.

I think this may also be the down side of being locked into an existing IP.  Lotro could use it's own Cataclysm to liven things up, but that won't fit into the LOTR lore.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

6/16/12 1:35:09 PM#80
Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Just wait till GW2 releases, cause I bet they went F2P with cash shop for the very same reason, they'll make more money than a base monthly sub fee because there are alot of players with money to spend who make up for us cheap bastards who have no problem playing a F2P game without added benefits.

Please dont speak about games you have no clue about. Guild wars is and always was a buy to play game, GW2 followed its same model.I have seen its cash shop and its lol, unlike turbine pay2win shop. You just buy the box and you go play. Have you ever played GW? Have you ever seen its "cash shop"? Have you ever played GW2 beta, or prepurchased? 

Your statements about that game is false, and completely based on your opinion rather than facts.

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