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Lord of the Rings Online Forum » General Discussion » The Greatest Potential, Wasted

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119 posts found
  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 871

12/04/13 5:27:32 PM#101
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Part of the issue is the owners of the IP get a lot of say in what a game CAN'T do. They want to preserve their lore and that means that in a world like LotRO (and other lotr games) have to follow the storyline of the fellowship bringing the ring to be destroyed and doing it in the manner that they do.

 

So either you make a more single player/co-op game where you get to play the heroes in the scenes and smash tons of bad guys. Or you make a game where a lot of people play, but no one is in the fellow so the rest of you just adventure and kill random no names in different places and live a pretty common, non legendary, life.

 

 

Non-IP games (or game only IPs which continue on in in a game only franchise) are so so so so so so so so much better for game design as they give complete freedom to developers to make great experiences for the players and bend the world as they need to. However, too many companies are stuck in this mindset of "It needs to be an existing IP for us to even consider it" for some strange reason given that pretty much all of the best sellers/most successful games in video game history have all been original game IPs and many of the worst selling/worst performing of all time are existing IPs. Go figure.

And this is a good point.  

 

The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed.  This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it.   Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive!   Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.

 

As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious.   These type of games are meant to be entertainment.   They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games.   They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in.  Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world.  The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed.   Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.

 

Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.

 

Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.

 

 

 

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6521

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/04/13 5:38:54 PM#102
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.

During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.

After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.

This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.

Amen.

/Thread

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6521

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/04/13 5:46:35 PM#103
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Part of the issue is the owners of the IP get a lot of say in what a game CAN'T do. They want to preserve their lore and that means that in a world like LotRO (and other lotr games) have to follow the storyline of the fellowship bringing the ring to be destroyed and doing it in the manner that they do.

 

So either you make a more single player/co-op game where you get to play the heroes in the scenes and smash tons of bad guys. Or you make a game where a lot of people play, but no one is in the fellow so the rest of you just adventure and kill random no names in different places and live a pretty common, non legendary, life.

 

 

Non-IP games (or game only IPs which continue on in in a game only franchise) are so so so so so so so so much better for game design as they give complete freedom to developers to make great experiences for the players and bend the world as they need to. However, too many companies are stuck in this mindset of "It needs to be an existing IP for us to even consider it" for some strange reason given that pretty much all of the best sellers/most successful games in video game history have all been original game IPs and many of the worst selling/worst performing of all time are existing IPs. Go figure.

And this is a good point.  

 

The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed.  This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it.   Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive!   Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.

 

As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious.   These type of games are meant to be entertainment.   They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games.   They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in.  Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world.  The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed.   Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.

 

Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.

 

Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.

 

I didnt mention anything about a sandbox. Have you read the books, which you claim this game was designed after? Seeing as you say that you have no idea what we came here looking for, I am guessing you did not.

Those books have incredible depth and richness and the 12 hour movie trilogy captured a glimpse of that. This game has nowhere near the depth of even the movies, let alone the books.

So you can try to use the excuse that just because I am a sandbox fan then what I say have no merit but what you dont know is that I am also a Tolkien fan. Read the trilogies, Bilbo and Silmarilion as well as read several articles and a biography of Tolkien to understand where he got the information for the incredible depth of his books about Middle Earth. So I am talking from that point of view and compared to that, this game is, unequivocally and undeniably a disgrace.

So you can have your "entertainment" but Tolkien's work was not that simple so LOTRO was a win for developers and maybe for some gamers but for Tolkien fans? Fuck no.

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 871

12/04/13 5:47:12 PM#104
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.

During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.

After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.

This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.

Amen.

/Thread

Hallelujah!!

You are right!!   It is not Lotro or Tolkien.    It is a game based on the lore of the books.   If you can't accept that it might stray a little from the original material,  as pretty much any creative project does, well then, we are sorry it does not appeal to you.

 

Ok!   Can you all move along now, I am trying to get my wallet out.....

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6521

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/04/13 5:52:38 PM#105
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.

During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.

After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.

This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.

Amen.

/Thread

Hallelujah!!

You are right!!   It is not Lotro or Tolkien.    It is a game based on the lore of the books.   If you can't accept that it might stray a little from the original material,  as pretty much any creative project does, well then, we are sorry it does not appeal to you.

 

Ok!   Can you all move along now, I am trying to get my wallet out.....

Stray away a little from the original material? LOL

LOTRO is based on Tolkiens lore maybe on the level of a children book for five year olds.

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 871

12/04/13 6:28:24 PM#106

Like I said, this game wasn't designed for the hardcore dummies, even if they do act like 5 year olds a lot of the time!

 

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1788

12/04/13 6:46:24 PM#107

The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.

 

You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story. The game has very few long term new players because nobody wants to take months grinding to get anywhere near the current content. Content inflation is the largest failing of the themepark model. The only way it can work is if you make all previous content bypassed quickly which makes it meaningless. Wow did this because they only focus on current story and all story previous is made pointless. 

 

Lotro cannot do this or it no longer tells a story. Some elements of the story must be preserved but only hurts the game more than helps it as a vertical progression game alienates new players from the majority of the player base.

 

If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful and I only specifically refer to one element. In AC there was a very high level cap but levels meant much less than they do in most themepark mmos. A level 150 character could easily participate in the majority of content a level 200 could. Even a level 100 often could. Many players sit at level cap for YEARS and still enjoy the content and all new content added to the game. Leveling wasn't the focus. Story and game play was and you weren't gated by 99+% of the levels in the game. 

 

If Lotro was more horizontal in progression you could have the majority of the player base able to enjoy the majority of the content. The mmo model is what ruined Lotro.

You stay sassy!

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 871

12/04/13 6:55:57 PM#108
Originally posted by Tamanous

The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.

 

You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story. The game has very few long term new players because nobody wants to take months grinding to get anywhere near the current content. Content inflation is the largest failing of the themepark model. The only way it can work is if you make all previous content bypassed quickly which makes it meaningless. Wow did this because they only focus on current story and all story previous is made pointless. 

 

Lotro cannot do this or it no longer tells a story. Some elements of the story must be preserved but only hurts the game more than helps it as a vertical progression game alienates new players from the majority of the player base.

 

If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful and I only specifically refer to one element. In AC there was a very high level cap but levels meant much less than they do in most themepark mmos. A level 150 character could easily participate in the majority of content a level 200 could. Even a level 100 often could. Many players sit at level cap for YEARS and still enjoy the content and all new content added to the game. Leveling wasn't the focus. Story and game play was and you weren't gated by 99+% of the levels in the game. 

 

If Lotro was more horizontal in progression you could have the majority of the player base able to enjoy the majority of the content. The mmo model is what ruined Lotro.

So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.

 

And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about.  Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?

 

I just don't get it.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

12/05/13 12:00:47 AM#109
Originally posted by Tamanous

The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.

 

You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.

If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful

This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.

 

For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...

 

"

Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.

Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.

It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1343

12/05/13 3:33:48 AM#110
Originally posted by Boneserino
 

So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.

 

And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about.  Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?

 

I think some people just have a kneejerk Sandbox>themepark reaction. In many cases I actually agree with that but for Turbine to tell the story they wanted to tell, which followed the fellowship, I think they needed levels. The whole D&D leveling process  seems *based* on the LOTR story. "You don't simply walk into Mordor..." You need to go through the journey step by step to get the impact of the story.

 

Could they have made a cool "life in Middle Earth" sandbox game? Sure and I'd have played the hell out of that but it wouldn't be able to tell the same kind of story. Look at EVE Online, it's pretty much impossible for CCP to tell a coherent story with everyone running this way and that doing their own thing. "Middle Earth Online" would've  probably been the same thing. Probably a fun game but the story would've definitely suffered.

 

 

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

12/05/13 8:47:42 AM#111
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Boneserino
 

So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.

 

And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about.  Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?

 

I think some people just have a kneejerk Sandbox>themepark reaction. In many cases I actually agree with that but for Turbine to tell the story they wanted to tell, which followed the fellowship, I think they needed levels. The whole D&D leveling process  seems *based* on the LOTR story. "You don't simply walk into Mordor..." You need to go through the journey step by step to get the impact of the story.

 

Could they have made a cool "life in Middle Earth" sandbox game? Sure and I'd have played the hell out of that but it wouldn't be able to tell the same kind of story. Look at EVE Online, it's pretty much impossible for CCP to tell a coherent story with everyone running this way and that doing their own thing. "Middle Earth Online" would've  probably been the same thing. Probably a fun game but the story would've definitely suffered.

 

 

The story already suffers. Right now the only story in LotRO exists as quest text before you close out of it and follow the yellow brick road. Instances do some scripted BS that has no impact on the actual game world.

Turbine, with MEO could have done what they did with AC, tell monthly stories within the living virtual world. There are a ton of ways to tell a story without instancing and quest grinding. Quest grinding actually undermines storytelling to a massive degree.

And Eve's PvE has just as much story as LotRO.

 

Besides, with a world as fully fleshed out as Middle Earth, I think most people wanted to experience LIFE there. Not be forced through a scripted path with a lifeless world of cutout cardboard facades. Theres a reason LotRO's tagline was changed from Live in Middle Earth to Fight Through Middle Earth

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

12/06/13 1:18:39 PM#112

I think even following the Themepark model, I think LOTRO has some very significant failings in terms of the IP....

- Middle Earth of the 3rd Age really was a very low magic, low fantasy setting. Few possesed significant magic (the Istari and the Great Elf Lords,  of which the players are not) and thier overt use of it was very rare. Most of the magic that one saw used was subtle in nature and effect. The place had a much more "down to earth" feel. LOTRO started out not too badly in this regard in the earlier parts of SoA but shifted more to High Fantasy/ High and Loud magic and over the top heroic's. That could maybe be acceptable if the game were set in the 1st Age and the players were playing the greater heroes of it. However, for the setting the game is supposed to take place under it really is VERY, VERY out of place.

- One of the most persistant themes of the book is the sense of Journey that is taking place. It's really what the book is all about,  the vastness and wildness of the world, the sheer difficulty and hazard of travel, of getting from point A to point B. The game really does a horrible job in representing this, in fact it pretty much doesn't represent it at all. The game really is more about jumping quickly from one small, densely packed zone to another....hoping from one quest hub to another to do a bunch of fighting quests before you move on to the next with little effort....and pretty much the only hazard encountered is combat. There are only a few places where the game gives any hint of distance, of Journey, of mystery and exploration of the wild.

- The other big theme running through the books is that of the Fellowship itself. That is of the relationships between the characters, thier interdependence upon one another, thier need for one another and for those they encounter along the way, the idea that together they are much stronger then the sum of thier parts. LOTRO started out with a little bit of a nod toward this with the concept of fellowship manuvers and with the need for groups to do some of the storyline content and even with a couple optional things out in the open world where you really needed help from others to accomplish. It wasn't alot, but at least it was there. However it later abandoned even this nod to the idea of interdependance and went completely the opposite direction to where the game really could best be described as a solo game with difficulty in finding much content oriented toward groups or even duo's.

None of the above neccesitate a shift from Themepark to Sandbox. You can do a Themepark with a low magic, low fantasy setting where you mostly encounter magic represented in subtle rather then loud ways. You can do a Themepark which is set in a very large sparsely populated game world.....where alot of the gameplay focuses on the difficulty and hazards of getting from point A to point B. You certainly can do a Themepark which is much more focused on group content and the neccessity of players to work together to defeat challenges and help each other out.  It would be a different Themepark then is typical of most modern MMO's but it's certainly something that could be done within the confines of the Themepark model. So it's not really all about a preference for sandbox over themepark.  There are alot of areas where LOTRO just doesn't represent the IP well. Though I do think it's fair to say that the IP doesn't fit very well with the "typical" MMO model that is very prevelant today with AAA MMO's.

 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3875

12/06/13 2:30:19 PM#113

What a quaint thread :)

 

Brings back memories of the "Lore wars" in the official forums 6 or 7 years ago... especially when the Runekeeper was announced. I gather the wars never ended?

 

I don't think I would have enjoyed playing the lore-consistent version of Middle Earth Online. I'm not in it to soak up the atmosphere of Tolkien's universe. To me, they were books I enjoyed...but I've read better high fantasy. I even think (sorry, sacrilege incoming) that the "culling" that Peter Jackson did for the movies enhanced the story...shrug.

 

Disclosure: Yes, I prefer playing the Loremaster and Runekeeper over all the other classes... I'm sure this does not surprise you.

  gameon29

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/13
Posts: 1

12/06/13 5:45:04 PM#114
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tamanous

The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.

 

You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.

If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful

This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.

 

For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...

 

"

Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.

Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.

It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."

 

Oh WOW!!! I thought those complaining about SWTOR 2 years in were bad....man over 6 years in and still telling lies about a video game, still crying and whining about a video game you dont play.  Its ok i mean I would hope you have found a new game since.  Alright where to start with your misinformation...

 

First besides some angry meo folks like yourself please on please show some proof about "Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO" oh thats lie #1

 

Second instanced quest grinding linear game? Lie number 2, this is an open world game, sure there are some instance guest but the majority are not. 

Third well this in not a lie but its your opinion and the game is healthy over six years in so I would say your opinion really doesnt mean anything when it comes to LOTRO.  

Fourth invisible walls yeah again this is just a lie thats three lies, I can run from Thorins gate to Helms Deep (a journey that would take over 3 hours) and NOT ONCE hit an invisible wall and maybe have 3 load screens. 

Fifth bad gameplay again please see #3

 

Its a shame grown adults need to post lies and misinformation about video games they hate (yeah i know sad that a person can hate a video game) and a video game they dont play.  

 

 

  rodarin

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 448

12/08/13 12:15:39 AM#115
Originally posted by gameon29
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tamanous

The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.

 

You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.

If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful

This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.

 

For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...

 

"

Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.

Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.

It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."

 

Oh WOW!!! I thought those complaining about SWTOR 2 years in were bad....man over 6 years in and still telling lies about a video game, still crying and whining about a video game you dont play.  Its ok i mean I would hope you have found a new game since.  Alright where to start with your misinformation...

 

First besides some angry meo folks like yourself please on please show some proof about "Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO" oh thats lie #1

 

Second instanced quest grinding linear game? Lie number 2, this is an open world game, sure there are some instance guest but the majority are not. 

Third well this in not a lie but its your opinion and the game is healthy over six years in so I would say your opinion really doesnt mean anything when it comes to LOTRO.  

Fourth invisible walls yeah again this is just a lie thats three lies, I can run from Thorins gate to Helms Deep (a journey that would take over 3 hours) and NOT ONCE hit an invisible wall and maybe have 3 load screens. 

Fifth bad gameplay again please see #3

 

Its a shame grown adults need to post lies and misinformation about video games they hate (yeah i know sad that a person can hate a video game) and a video game they dont play.  

 

 

They still didnt connect the fords of isen to each other. The one in Rohan doesnt connect to the one in the Gap of Rohan.

 

But to get from Thorins to HD you have to run through moria which will give a couple load screens.

 

But basically its Erid Luin, Shire (load screen always and only one there was at one time), Shire to Bree, bree to Lone lands, Lone lands to Trollshaws, Troll Shaws to Eregion, Eregion to Moria, Moria (two load screens there) to Lothlorien, Lothlorien to great River, Great River to Rohan. Had they done it 'right' You would be able to go from Eregion to Enedwaith, to Dunland, gap Of Rohan to Rohan proper just north of Helms Deep.

 

As for the other stuff, game isnt nearly what is SHOULD and could be. Helms Deep was supposed to be the turning point where Turbine had a chance to get it right, they coudnt have gotten it more wrong if they tried. I dont like to  blame it on free to play but that might be a viable excuse here. or theyre going to lose their license and theyre just putting the least amount of money into it and trying to get the most out of it before they close up shop. But this expansion could have been done better by a couple guys in their basements. Thats really how bad it is. The 'fix' list is about 500 items and growing, and they released this mess. The 'fix' list also isnt addressing a lot of other glaring problems, just the ones the expansion created.

 

The only excuse Turbine has is that it IS a free to play game now and you get what they want to give. Sure you have to pay 45 bux for it (unless they pay you which is the case for a lot of people) then its all free. I just know if I would have had to pay for anything from these guys I wouldnt be playing this game anymore at all but since I got the founders lifetime deal years ago then I do and it is fine for me. But for a 'normal' person, it isnt worth it at all.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2829

There... are... four... lights!

12/08/13 6:32:31 AM#116

I actually think Lord of the Rings isn't the best setting to create a MMORPG from, for many reasons.

- Races. Seeing elves and hobbits all over the place completely breaks the original lore. A LOTR MMORPG, to decently fit Tolkien's world, should allow only men as playable race. Dwarfs could eventually be tolerated, but that would already stretch the lore quite a bit. If players would be allowed to play hobbits, it would be mostly non combat characters restricted to the Shire and a few other areas. Elves are definitely possible for players to control.

- A decent LOTRO MMORPG would need no classes, but a skill based system. None of the characters of the book is a guardian, a ranger, a captain, a champion, but all have skills from every LOTRO class. Is Aragorn a guardian? A ranger? A captain? A champion? Nope, he's a bit of all. Players should be able to select from weapon, armor, and other skills freely to make their own character.

- The world is low magic except for the Istari, a few elves and of course Sauron and the Nine. Players themself should not have access to any noticeable magic. Definitely no sith lords with lightning coming out of every orifice. Therefore no magic skills, but there could be things like herbalism and alchemy though.

- Access to areas like Lothlorien would be severely restricted too, if not totally forbidden to players.

- PvP should be very limited (that's one thing Turbine didn't get totally wrong). Limited to war zones. Free people should have access to the whole world including war zones, but the enemy (orcs, trolls, goblins, etc...) would be restricted to war zones and their homes (Isengard, Mordor). No orcs camping low level hobbits in the Shire. No orcs killing quest NPCs in Bree.

 

I think a Game of Thrones based MMORPG would be much better (even if also a low magic world) than any possible LOTR based MMORPG.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6829

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/08/13 7:03:34 AM#117

Keyword OP...Ambitious team.

There are perhaps tons of ambitious teams out there but the TEAM is not in charge,the CEO,the board members,stock holders and in many cases the publisher are in charge.The real problem with this industry is it is always about business and profits first.When decisions are made it is not about what is BEST,but always about what is most cost effective.Point being NONE of these games are going to be their best effort and right now over the past few years we are getting VERY shallow efforts from developers.

Not only has the effort been terrible,now devs are stooping so low as to try and sell us cash shop right up front before games are even released LMAO.Sadly people buy into this nonsense known as Founders packs or Kickstarters,whatever yo uwant to call it,it is still a form of cash shop and free handouts.

I have never been a big fan of Turbine,they are ok but imo not capable of a top notch game.Unfortunately there is nobody else that i could say would do a better job.If i was a decent sized operation,i would hire Tanaka from Square Enix,i feel, he has been shuffled back in their operation but is imo the best man they ever had.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1225

12/24/13 7:59:32 AM#118
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Its one of  the most open pve worlds sine UO, together with vanguard...

Erm nope. Anarchy Online and WoW both had much larger open worlds than LOTRO, and most recently GW2, even more because of the downscaling system.

you can do and go everywhere, with or withouth quests... And espescially the orriginal game has some great open world dungeons...    

Well, you can't go into Moria without completing the corresponding quest line first, which is not available before level 50. Therefore, all Rhovanion is totally inaccessible to a low level character.

In UO, AO, WoW, GW2, VG but also SWG, EQ, EQ2, AC1 and many others that don't come to my mind right now, you can go anywhere in the game world at level 1. In LOTRO, if you didn't do the Moria quest line, you are restricted to Eriador. Right now, that means almost half of the game inaccessible to you. No visit of Edoras before you unlocked and passed through Moria. Also, without quests, you can't go into the eastern part of Angmar.

In green, thanks for saying this because you took the thought right out of my head when I read that post. GW2 followed the older MMOs in having a fully evolved virtual world. WoW was, and still is, very similar to the first generation of MMOs in that sense. GW2 as well. There is  no irritating instadeath or wall or blue/green zone door that says you can't go somewhere. There are some limits in WoW. I can't fly on my mount from Eastern Kingdoms to Outlands for example, and I can't go out into deep ocean unfortunately. The Cata and MoP starting areas are not freely available and getting to MoP is difficult without the help of a mage, but virtually everything else is available at your own risk of course.

 

Other more recent games might have adopted many of WoW's features but one of the ones that they have not is the openness of the world. ToR is one of the worst, and I remember LotRO as being particularly bad in those respects. In fact, I consider it the precursor of ToR-style development.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1225

12/24/13 8:11:13 AM#119
Originally posted by Iselin

What a quaint thread :)

 

Brings back memories of the "Lore wars" in the official forums 6 or 7 years ago... especially when the Runekeeper was announced. I gather the wars never ended?

 

I don't think I would have enjoyed playing the lore-consistent version of Middle Earth Online. I'm not in it to soak up the atmosphere of Tolkien's universe. To me, they were books I enjoyed...but I've read better high fantasy. I even think (sorry, sacrilege incoming) that the "culling" that Peter Jackson did for the movies enhanced the story...shrug.

 

Disclosure: Yes, I prefer playing the Loremaster and Runekeeper over all the other classes... I'm sure this does not surprise you.

I too liked the Loremaster and Runekeeper (oops, don't let that one get out). However, I think that they should have kept closer to the books. After all they depict a lore-heavy world in intricate detail. I mean, why choose an IP known for its detailed lore and then start breaking from it bit by bit rather than either generating your own IP or using a different, less detailed one ? It pretty much defeats the purpose.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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