Originally posted by rochrist

Originally posted by Aramath
I think someone should point out to the "family", the stories were aimed at pre teen and young teens.   That the author's "family" is not raking in the cash is not the fault of anyone but themselves.  Personally, I find it typical of today's ideals.  Everyone thinks they are entitled to something because someone else did some work.  If the "family" wants to make money, the "family" should get off their lazy arses and do something.

THe Lord of the Rings was most certainly NOT written for pre-teens and young teens.

You my friend have no clue.  It most certainly was aimed at that crowd.   If you read his biography, he started making these stories for his children.  A way to let them know that even little people can make a big difference, the main theme behind the whole world.

Honestly, this might sound arrogant. 

 

I really don't give a damn what his children or great grandson/daughers say. Unless it is from J.R.R tolk himself, they mean nothing. I think Jackson was a blessing by making LOTR/Hobbit movies and making it more aware to the public. Before the movies it was not as big as it was today. So if you don't mind me saying "christopher" can kiss my ass lol. 

 

That last sentence is pretty harsh though. Still he is tyring to diss the most respected (second to spielberg), Peter Jackson.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The hobbit IS A CHILDREN'S BOOK, its supposed to have a light comedic touch.

that said, I think its a mistake using 3 movies to tell the story, 1 would have sufficed.

The way it was originally proposed it was to be two movies with half of each dealing with the Hobbit and the other half dealing with the LOTRO appendices to be more of a lead up to LOTR.  That idea sounded fine to me.  They could delve into the Necromancer and other things. 

 

Making it three movies just sounds absurd to me though.  And after the bloated mess that was King Kong I'm not optimistic.  I haven't gotten myself to see the first Hobbit film yet as I have low expectations.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The hobbit IS A CHILDREN'S BOOK, its supposed to have a light comedic touch.

that said, I think its a mistake using 3 movies to tell the story, 1 would have sufficed.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Making it three movies jsut sounds absurd to me though. And after the bloated mess that was King Kong I'm not optimistic. I haven't gotten myself to see the first Hobbit film yet as I have low expectations.

 I agree, one or 2 would've sufficed. I can't see how The Hobbit, being only one book of about 300-400 pages, will have sufficient material for 3 movies unless they drag the story out a lot.

 

If The Hobbit is worthy of 3 movies, Lord of the Rings should've been 9 since it was actually 3 books of like 500+ pages each - and it was obvious that Lord of the Rings was short changed because so much was missing in the movie and so much was over-condensed and not very well explained and bastardized.

 

I hope if they ever make the Silmarillion, they make it a TV series that runs for at least 5 years. Otherwise they can't do it justice.

 

 

the hobbit is a terrible book.  the plot changes to the movie were warranted.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

I hope if they ever make the Silmarillion, they make it a TV series that runs for at least 5 years. Otherwise they can't do it justice.

That will never happen as long as Christopher Tolkien is in charge and it isn't in the public domain.  I don't htink the Silmarillion is filmable any time soon.  It also isn't one single story.  I do wish the Tolkien Estate would allow games based on it though.  which is part of why I hate Chris Tolkien so much.

Originally posted by xalvi

Honestly, this might sound arrogant. 

 

I really don't give a damn what his children or great grandson/daughers say. Unless it is from J.R.R tolk himself, they mean nothing. I think Jackson was a blessing by making LOTR/Hobbit movies and making it more aware to the public. Before the movies it was not as big as it was today. So if you don't mind me saying "christopher" can kiss my ass lol. 

Actually, I agree.

I could care less what Chris Tolkien thinks.  It's like Paris Hilton commenting on the Hilton Hotel empire.

I am going to say something highly unpopular - DESPITE the fact I am author and painter myself - but, at a certain point all creations of imagination belong to the universe. To everyone. Sure, it was right that JRR Tolkien got money from his creation. But there comes a point when a Fictional Reality is greater than the single creator. When people "carry" it, so to speak. And when this breaking point comes, the fiction no longer belongs to anyone.

Japanese Anime creators understand this. There is a LEGION of Anime based fanwork, and usually they are never sued, but welcomed as fandom and supporting the IP. THAT is how *I* see fictional worlds and characters. They do not strictly belong to the creator, only the creator is the only one to make money. But JRR Tolkien is dead. And what did his family do? Nada. They just published it and got rich from it. Why not leave it with that? Characters evolve. Sure, you want to preserve the original. But The Hobbit and LotR were made in a way different time. I am usually very skeptical towards change of IPs, but Peter Jackson did nothing short of a masterpiece! Both with the Hobbit and LotR. Maybe JRR Tolkien would not have liked it. Who knows. But does that matter`? I say, no. For Middle Earth is in a higher sense as much ours now as once it was his.

Success is your proof, and both the Hobbit and LotR have been roaring successes both in mass and critical acclaim. Both will for many, many years remain THE standard for fantasy movies. They are so true to the spirit, the idea of Tolkiens books. There is so much magic, wonder and fairy tale in those films. I think Christopher Tolkien just is a grumpy old man. Sorry.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I do wish the Tolkien Estate would allow games based on it though.  which is part of why I hate Chris Tolkien so much.

 

Christopher is totally taking tolkien work as well as fans down the grave. He, from my knowledge, contribute or continued his fathers work and acts like he has some kind of birthright to be a dick. The fact that turbine/warner bros still only have the right to make LOTR games is beyond me. I hate that guy.

 

Regecting Peter's invitation? What a tool. Everyone on that team is the biggest tolkien fan, what a big disrespect.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

I hope if they ever make the Silmarillion, they make it a TV series that runs for at least 5 years. Otherwise they can't do it justice.

That will never happen as long as Christopher Tolkien is in charge and it isn't in the public domain.  I don't htink the Silmarillion is filmable any time soon.  It also isn't one single story.  I do wish the Tolkien Estate would allow games based on it though.  which is part of why I hate Chris Tolkien so much.

 Yeah I don't think it will happen either and if it does, it is going to be hard for the screenwriters because of all these different Lays and Songs within the Silmarillion.

 

If they allow other games to base on Silmarillion though it will be a trully monumental undertaking for any developer - the Middle-Earth before the Numenoreans and the exile of Melkor is huge and you are also talking about Valinor as well as it is a major part of the story of the Tolkien universe. A lot of materials that can be covered.

 

 

Originally posted by Elikal

I am going to say something highly unpopular - DESPITE the fact I am author and painter myself - but, at a certain point all creations of imagination belong to the universe. To everyone. Sure, it was right that JRR Tolkien got money from his creation. But there comes a point when a Fictional Reality is greater than the single creator. When people "carry" it, so to speak. And when this breaking point comes, the fiction no longer belongs to anyone.

Japanese Anime creators understand this. There is a LEGION of Anime based fanwork, and usually they are never sued, but welcomed as fandom and supporting the IP. THAT is how *I* see fictional worlds and characters. They do not strictly belong to the creator, only the creator is the only one to make money. But JRR Tolkien is dead. And what did his family do? Nada. They just published it and got rich from it. Why not leave it with that? Characters evolve. Sure, you want to preserve the original. But The Hobbit and LotR were made in a way different time. I am usually very skeptical towards change of IPs, but Peter Jackson did nothing short of a masterpiece! Both with the Hobbit and LotR. Maybe JRR Tolkien would not have liked it. Who knows. But does that matter`? I say, no. For Middle Earth is in a higher sense as much ours now as once it was his.

Success is your proof, and both the Hobbit and LotR have been roaring successes both in mass and critical acclaim. Both will for many, many years remain THE standard for fantasy movies. They are so true to the spirit, the idea of Tolkiens books. There is so much magic, wonder and fairy tale in those films. I think Christopher Tolkien just is a grumpy old man. Sorry.

Agree. Totally agree.

and oh, my whole family are huge tolkien fans way before the movies (me and my sister are named after characters in silmarillion heh)  - and we all enjoyed the movies. it was really fun to watch it no matter what people said.

Originally posted by Elikal

I am going to say something highly unpopular - DESPITE the fact I am author and painter myself - but, at a certain point all creations of imagination belong to the universe. To everyone. Sure, it was right that JRR Tolkien got money from his creation. But there comes a point when a Fictional Reality is greater than the single creator. When people "carry" it, so to speak. And when this breaking point comes, the fiction no longer belongs to anyone.

Japanese Anime creators understand this. There is a LEGION of Anime based fanwork, and usually they are never sued, but welcomed as fandom and supporting the IP. THAT is how *I* see fictional worlds and characters. They do not strictly belong to the creator, only the creator is the only one to make money. But JRR Tolkien is dead. And what did his family do? Nada. They just published it and got rich from it. Why not leave it with that? Characters evolve. Sure, you want to preserve the original. But The Hobbit and LotR were made in a way different time. I am usually very skeptical towards change of IPs, but Peter Jackson did nothing short of a masterpiece! Both with the Hobbit and LotR. Maybe JRR Tolkien would not have liked it. Who knows. But does that matter`? I say, no. For Middle Earth is in a higher sense as much ours now as once it was his.

Success is your proof, and both the Hobbit and LotR have been roaring successes both in mass and critical acclaim. Both will for many, many years remain THE standard for fantasy movies. They are so true to the spirit, the idea of Tolkiens books. There is so much magic, wonder and fairy tale in those films. I think Christopher Tolkien just is a grumpy old man. Sorry.

Sorry Elikal but I disagree.

"I" have degrees in musical composition, one class away from a degree in literature, numerous classes in playwriting and writing poetry and my first stint as a creator was as an artist. Heck, my great grandfather was a professional sculptor meaning he made his entire living from this work as well as teaching it.

And I don't believe that such things belong to the universe or world. Except of course unless you sell it. But even if you do sell your work that doesn't mean you can't disagree with how it's used. Just makes you a bit stupid for selling it in the first place.

So, point being, just because one has experience to one degree or another in the arts doesn't mean that their opinion, mine included, is more informed. At least when it comes to evaluating what is done to a work. One can always be trained and be tacky as hell. An opinion is an opinion.

Originally posted by Flaming_MMO

His opinion is meaningless to me.  Did he ever even write a book?  Did any of the Tolkien kids/grandkids take up J.R.R.'s legacy and start writing more books in the Lord Of the Rings universe? 

I would take his opinion seriously if he was like Brian Herbert (Frank Herberts son) who actually continued writing more Dune books (and still writes them) after Frank Herbert died.

Its obvious YOU HAVE NO CLUE what your talking about or you would have never went out of your way to own yourself.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Elikal

I am going to say something highly unpopular - DESPITE the fact I am author and painter myself - but, at a certain point all creations of imagination belong to the universe. To everyone. Sure, it was right that JRR Tolkien got money from his creation. But there comes a point when a Fictional Reality is greater than the single creator. When people "carry" it, so to speak. And when this breaking point comes, the fiction no longer belongs to anyone.

Japanese Anime creators understand this. There is a LEGION of Anime based fanwork, and usually they are never sued, but welcomed as fandom and supporting the IP. THAT is how *I* see fictional worlds and characters. They do not strictly belong to the creator, only the creator is the only one to make money. But JRR Tolkien is dead. And what did his family do? Nada. They just published it and got rich from it. Why not leave it with that? Characters evolve. Sure, you want to preserve the original. But The Hobbit and LotR were made in a way different time. I am usually very skeptical towards change of IPs, but Peter Jackson did nothing short of a masterpiece! Both with the Hobbit and LotR. Maybe JRR Tolkien would not have liked it. Who knows. But does that matter`? I say, no. For Middle Earth is in a higher sense as much ours now as once it was his.

Success is your proof, and both the Hobbit and LotR have been roaring successes both in mass and critical acclaim. Both will for many, many years remain THE standard for fantasy movies. They are so true to the spirit, the idea of Tolkiens books. There is so much magic, wonder and fairy tale in those films. I think Christopher Tolkien just is a grumpy old man. Sorry.

Sorry Elikal but I disagree.

"I" have degrees in musical composition, one class away from a degree in literature, numerous classes in playwriting and writing poetry and my first stint as a creator was as an artist. Heck, my great grandfather was a professional sculptor meaning he made his entire living from this work as well as teaching it.

And I don't believe that such things belong to the universe or world. Except of course unless you sell it. But even if you do sell your work that doesn't mean you can't disagree with how it's used. Just makes you a bit stupid for selling it in the first place.

So, point being, just because one has experience to one degree or another in the arts doesn't mean that their opinion, mine included, is more informed. At least when it comes to evaluating what is done to a work. One can always be trained and be tacky has hell. An opinion is an opinion.

I understand and respect your position. Still, I think you maybe misunderstood.

If you compose a song or write a book, sure by the laws of property they are yours. You alone make money from it. Nobody can claim to have made it.

But there is right, and insisting on a right.

Again. Take Anime. By right, all those Naruto fanfics and Naruto fanart is illegal. Period. But inisiting on such a right, when Naruto after all the years is as much part of the fans'd mind as the authors, you would be unwise to insist strictly on your right. Or Star Wars. Sure, by right, Star Wars belongs to George Lucas. He alone can make money of any SW character. Fine. But it would be unwise to push his rights so far to forbid any fanart, fanfic or whatever. And it would also be wise, as he did now, to know when it's time to step back and leave his characters and worlds to other people. They will stay to the core idea, but they will also alter and change Star Wars. As it must be, if a vision, an artistic creation should live. Otherwise you are making a mummy, a sterile thing or a statue, which people may adore but which isn't alife.

I value the creative process and the hard work. But any super large IP becomes at a point more that "just one more intellectual property". Like Batman. Or Star Wars. Or Star Trek. Or Mickey Mouse. Or Lord of the Rings. They don't belong to DC, Lucas, Paramount, Disney or Tolkien anymore. Yes in the monetary sense, but not in the artistic sense. They are made by all of us. We live in them, they live through us. We are a sort of creative swarm. We contributed to it as much as those studios. It has long passed that level of "small writer writes his book".

Psy OPS understood that when he allowed all to make their own Gungam films. That is what keeps IPs alive: generosity. Fan-acknowlegding. Acceptance that any large and old IPs evolve into something more than one man's private property: it evolves into an ingoing process where we all are involved. A too strict insist on IP rights only creates living mummies, a sterile and unchanging statue. Life is change, is adaption. And an author can create, and we respect him for that and pay him for that. But at a point, Darth Vader stopped to belong to George Lucas, Gandalf stopped to belong to Tolkien and Donald Duck stopped to belong to Disney. No matter the legality. There is such a thing as Universal Rights, Spiritual Truths. The alternative is The Peanuts, from Charles M. Schultz. They died with him. I respect that, but I find that tragic and wrong still.

 

We artists are to our creations like parents to children. We give them birth, we raise them for a time, but there comes a point when we have to release them and give them to the world, if they are supposed to live on.

Originally posted by strykr619

Originally posted by Flaming_MMO

His opinion is meaningless to me.  Did he ever even write a book?  Did any of the Tolkien kids/grandkids take up J.R.R.'s legacy and start writing more books in the Lord Of the Rings universe? 

I would take his opinion seriously if he was like Brian Herbert (Frank Herberts son) who actually continued writing more Dune books (and still writes them) after Frank Herbert died.

Its obvious YOU HAVE NO CLUE what your talking about or you would have never went out of your way to own yourself.

 Yeah Christopher Tolkien did continue to write more books in addition to keep on revising the existing additions.

 

Children of Hurin is a book that was written by Christopher and edited based fully on JRR's existing material on the Lay of Turin Turambar.

 

Children of Hurin - now THAT's an adult tale. It's got everything from betrayal to incest.

I'm sorry that Christopher Tolkien feels this way.  I grew up with these books - I love them, and respect them, very much, and I was more than a little concerned with what the movie version would be like.  Personally, I was very happy with the films, including The Hobbit.  Brought tears to my eyes, of gladness, for how true they were to the spirit of the books.  As others have said, what do you expect?  Its a movie - some things are going to be lost.  I believe J.R.R. Tolkien would love the films, were he still around to see them.

Originally posted by Panther2103
The movies had plenty of story involved in them, they had a majority of the action scenes of the books because of the fact that if they made the movie exactly how the book was page for page, it would have been 15 hours long for one book if even that short. So they take the parts of the books, explain the story in a faster manner, and have the major action scenes. I don't see the issue. It wasn't marketed as an action film. I think the hobbit had maybe 4 or 5 actual action scenes that lasted more than 30 seconds. They always have been very slow, and that turns quite a few people I know off of the films. The environments in the films, and the way all of the characters look and act are exactly how I expected them to be in movie form. 

 

This is it.  Movies are almost always different from the books because the books have the freedom to dive deeper into detail and narrative than is possible in movies.  Think of all the little details you get in books, such as exactly what a character is thinking (and not saying), or verbose descriptions which are awesome, but not applicable on screen.

The other point is that these stories were adapted to make money and bring fantastic adventures to the masses.  Whether or not they are completely true to the books doesn't matter if most people wouldn't want to read them.  We know now that they have sold even more books thanks to these movies, and likely kept a lore alive which would have otherwise faded into obscurity like so much history has.

As a reader, I really enjoyed the movies a lot.  I especially though they did a better job in the first Hobbit movie of making you feel like you were actually walking the adventure with them (especially in 3D).  I'm very much looking forward to the two new movies, and when they are gone I will be sad that we aren't likely to see anything this epic again for another decade, if at all.

Just the proof that not all children inherit the genius of their parents. Thankfully, there are people like Peter Jackson to take over.