Originally posted by Torluk

Originally posted by Uhwop

Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

Not quite. 

 

They did change the wording on the FAQ but didn't tell anyone about it.  When people saw the change and wanted a refund, they basically said that the erroneous FAQ was not legally binding and tough luck on getting a refund.  they then blamed the erroneous FAQ on a copy/paste error.  After that they decided to honor the original FAQ rather than give ANY refunds.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

 

They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

 

They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

 

Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

 

Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

 

 

With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

 

I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

 

I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

Sorry but I have for a fact returned things to a Grocery Store after useing more than 5 things from a pack.  Maybe it is just a South Carolina thing, but I saw people return half a watermellon after it sat in the trunk of their car in temps over 105 deg. with no questions asked.

Good to know, hadn't realised they changed it without making an announcement.

Sorry Uhwop, I remember incorrectly.

They really need to start

Originally posted by ScribbleLay1

 

Sorry but I have for a fact returned things to a Grocery Store after useing more than 5 things from a pack.  Maybe it is just a South Carolina thing, but I saw people return half a watermellon after it sat in the trunk of their car in temps over 105 deg. with no questions asked.

um, yeah, that's probably a South Carolina thing. Or at least something that store was willing to do. I dont' know of any place in the North East that would allow that.

Wow this is an old thread.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Torluk

Originally posted by Uhwop

Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

Not quite. 

They did change the wording on the FAQ but didn't tell anyone about it.  When people saw the change and wanted a refund, they basically said that the erroneous FAQ was not legally binding and tough luck on getting a refund.  they then blamed the erroneous FAQ on a copy/paste error.  After that they decided to honor the original FAQ rather than give ANY refunds.

If this was an isolated incident then I think they would get a bigger pass by the gaming community but it is just the latest in a long line of those sorts of mistakes.  That is why they're so sleazy.  They still have their core of fans that only care they can play in Middle Earth and I guess that is enough for them to get by on.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

 

The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

 

Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

 

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

Yeah? Now how many people don't enter it after they buy?  1%?  

Sorry it is stlll "no refund at all" in other words practially.

Expansion have not released yet. So people have right to refund. 

If Turbine is oh so damaged by people using meaningless fluff pre-order rewards then deduct 10% of pre-purcharse price as a fee for those virtual items.

 

 

Turbine get flak for their practices and rightfully so.

Firstly, as a consequence of this incident, Turbine won't see another dime from me.

The gaming industry in general needs a total overhaul.

I can't condone preordering tbh, I don't preorder socks, shirts, cars, groceries, cell phones so why the hell does the gaming industry insist on offering these ridiculous lead times on buying (essentially funding) their unreleased products. I didn't realise that we were all investors in these game companies as I have never been invited to a shareholder meeting (I guess they forgot to mail me an invite /sigh).

Of course features are going to be added/removed during the development of a game and if you remove a feature that was a major selling point of your 'pre order' campaign, then people have every right to demand their money back.

The gaming industry has basically written their own rules and the major tenet is 'once we have your money, F**K YOU'.

Well I'm afraid that just isn't going to fly and the easiest way to curtail this endless cupidity is to stop preordering games months and years in advance. In this day and age, there is no reason for your hard earned dollars to sit in someone else's bank account for months on end.

JM2C

PS: And this 'you already entered the code so too bad' excuse is just pathetic and an obvious mechanism designed to make it more difficult to cry foul (no surprise there). Turbine (and others), simply deactivate the code and move on. They like to pretend it's a big imposition, but in reality, it isn't. It is done all the time under different circumstances where game keys are concerned.

 

 

Sorry to burst you're bubble but in this case the customer is in fact wrong. The FAQ is not an ad for the expansion so if information there is wrong you can't claim false advertizing.

If the instance cluster was going to be in the xpack they would have included it in the feature list

Surely only a halfwit would buy something and then try to return it without using it to find out whether they liked it or not?

 

Yeah, thats a pretty big problem. The fact stuff was PULLEd from it is a big issue I feel. Its fine if you can't refund after they are given perks and played but when your REMOVING stuff promised from it, thats a BIG issue.

Well its kind of a 2-way thing.

It seems some of the people at least are complaining that the FAQ said 1 thing, then it was changed. They pre-ordered the expansion, but even having known of the change STILL applied the key to their account and THEN demanded a refund.

Granted, everyone might not have been aware of the FAQ change, but it kind of seems to me that some of the most vocal people about it in that thread are very well aware that the FAQ was changed 2 days later, yet for some reason thought they could get away with buying the expansion, applying it to their account, then trying to get a refund because it didnt include what was in the original FAQ.

Seems to me a lot of them were trying to get something for free, and are pissed because Turbine realizes what theyre doing.

Anyway they wound up giving it for free to players who did purchase the expac anyway. So no big deal.

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

I have to agree with Turbine on this one. The FAQ is not written by the same people that write the expansions or the descriptions for the expansions. I saw no such claim of features on the expansion purchase only on an error that was corrected in the FAQ.

Their policy has always been possible suspension/bans for reverse charges as is every company I've ever dealt with for online purchases. If I recall, it's also stated in the EULA and I believe the last expansion I looked at also stated no refunds after entering the key to the account.

Over-reaction for already clearly stated policies.

 

If the feature were stated on the purchase, then I would change my opinion.

Just FYI on two things.

1.) Consumer laws don't specify between ads, FAQs or other documentation when it comes to bait-and-switch tactics. By law, anything a company publishes in writing is liable for bait-and-switch routines. Without a doubt, if it ever was to go to court and the plaintiff produced the original FAQ at time of purchase and Turbine told a court it didn't matter, FAQs don't count, they would lose the case hands down. In addition, if the e-mail regarding banning was produced at the same time, they would also most likely face coercion charges as well.

2.) EULAs mean diddly in a court of law. They have been struck down so many times in court it isn't even funny anymore. The main reason being that a EULA, or other private signed contract, cannot go around or violate existing laws. In the cases of EULAs, this has come up many times in regards to software companies saying their terms with the customer foregos any consumer rights per the contract and the courts have said, on many dozens of occasions, NO. EULAs cannot circumvent existing laws no matter how much software companies wish they could.

Turbines was 100% in the wrong here. It seems to be a rather repeated incident with them since going F2P. It is only a matter of time before the rooster comes home to roost.

Originally posted by Minsc
Sorry to burst you're bubble but in this case the customer is in fact wrong. The FAQ is not an ad for the expansion so if information there is wrong you can't claim false advertizing.

If the instance cluster was going to be in the xpack they would have included it in the feature list

Sorry to say it, but you are 100% wrong here. See my post above.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

I have to agree with Turbine on this one. The FAQ is not written by the same people that write the expansions or the descriptions for the expansions. I saw no such claim of features on the expansion purchase only on an error that was corrected in the FAQ.

Their policy has always been possible suspension/bans for reverse charges as is every company I've ever dealt with for online purchases. If I recall, it's also stated in the EULA and I believe the last expansion I looked at also stated no refunds after entering the key to the account.

Over-reaction for already clearly stated policies.

 

If the feature were stated on the purchase, then I would change my opinion.

Just FYI on two things.

1.) Consumer laws don't specify between ads, FAQs or other documentation when it comes to bait-and-switch tactics. By law, anything a company publishes in writing is liable for bait-and-switch routines. Without a doubt, if it ever was to go to court and the plaintiff produced the original FAQ at time of purchase and Turbine told a court it didn't matter, FAQs don't count, they would lose the case hands down. In addition, if the e-mail regarding banning was produced at the same time, they would also most likely face coercion charges as well.

2.) EULAs mean diddly in a court of law. They have been struck down so many times in court it isn't even funny anymore. The main reason being that a EULA, or other private signed contract, cannot go around or violate existing laws. In the cases of EULAs, this has come up many times in regards to software companies saying their terms with the customer foregos any consumer rights per the contract and the courts have said, on many dozens of occasions, NO. EULAs cannot circumvent existing laws no matter how much software companies wish they could.

Turbines was 100% in the wrong here. It seems to be a rather repeated incident with them since going F2P. It is only a matter of time before the rooster comes home to roost.

Spot on.  I think there shifty marketing and communication has been bad before F2P as well.  It just got more blatant after that.  Everyone likes to joke about "Soon"TM, but that whole song and dance has been there approach to customer communication and interaction for  a really really long time.