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Lord of the Rings Online Forum » General Discussion » Turbine threatens to ban players for pursuing refunds of their new expansion

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156 posts found
  Humphrie

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/08
Posts: 127

8/14/12 11:51:28 AM#121
Originally posted by Liknvi

they have discerned I am a fairly young woman,

 

I must admit, I am intrigued.

  Humphrie

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/08
Posts: 127

8/14/12 11:56:41 AM#122
Originally posted by kol56

We really need this game to go down.

 

The F2P propaganda has to come to an end.

I agree. WoW's fading success (It's a decade-old-game for Christ's sake!) coupled with the the belly flop of titles like TOR have sent the wrong message to the industry. The hard truth isn't that we're tired of paying for MMORPGs, it's that we're tired of paying for bad MMORPGs. Switching to F2P doesn't suddenly make a bad or ho-hum game good. And, not only that, but LOTRO's downturn has proven that even a decent game that goes F2P is ultimately screwed because of it.

 

I won't play F2P games. I won't become invested in something that the developers couldn't care less about. It's time for the people designing these things to stop running out of the gates with stars in their eyes, promising to be 'the next WoW,' and instead design like EVE. IE, build your game satisfy a niche audience, design with a low overhead, and maintain a reasonable client base over time. You don't crash and burn nearly as hard if you're not always shooting for the moon.

  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1451

8/14/12 3:47:08 PM#123
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by tawess
Originally posted by JeroKane

It just goes to show that a company doesn't even need to be bought up by EA to turn completely evil! lol.

What a shambles!

This whole debacle around Riders of Rohan is getting better and better.

It's really sad, but Turbine really is killing this game! There are hardly any people left in my once active guild. People have just gotten totally fed up with Turbine and left the game.

Ever since the F2P Freemium conversion, this game has gone straight downhill from a wonderful enjoyable game to a cheap horrible cash grab grindfest!

Well had it not turned F2P it woudl have been a very dead and canceld game by now.

 

Ehh that is completely false! The game was still doing well with a healthy population!

Due to the success of the Freemium conversion with DDO, Turbine was blinded by $$$$ and decided the convert LOTRO too to increase revenue. Also the bought up by Warner Bros might have had some influence in this too.

Turbine wants all their current games (DDO and LOTRO) and future games (Harry Potter Online?)  to be based on their Freemium business model.

 The guy who did the conversion was Craig Alexander.  Also the one behind the conversion of DDO just before that.  He happens to be my best friend's wife's uncle.  I've talked to him about it many times and I've got to go with him since he's the inside guy and a friend of the family.  You're wrong about the state of the game prior to F2P.  It was dead and dying and they were looking for another option rather than pulling the plug.  I can't tell you the exact number because I don't remember but long story short they have more subbing players now that it's F2P with an optional sub than they ever had when the sub was mandatory.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1451

8/14/12 3:55:26 PM#124
Originally posted by Humphrie
Originally posted by kol56

We really need this game to go down.

 

The F2P propaganda has to come to an end.

I agree. WoW's fading success (It's a decade-old-game for Christ's sake!) coupled with the the belly flop of titles like TOR have sent the wrong message to the industry. The hard truth isn't that we're tired of paying for MMORPGs, it's that we're tired of paying for bad MMORPGs. Switching to F2P doesn't suddenly make a bad or ho-hum game good. And, not only that, but LOTRO's downturn has proven that even a decent game that goes F2P is ultimately screwed because of it.

 

I won't play F2P games. I won't become invested in something that the developers couldn't care less about. It's time for the people designing these things to stop running out of the gates with stars in their eyes, promising to be 'the next WoW,' and instead design like EVE. IE, build your game satisfy a niche audience, design with a low overhead, and maintain a reasonable client base over time. You don't crash and burn nearly as hard if you're not always shooting for the moon.

Please don't try to speak for the entire MMO community and say what "we" are tired of.  I for one actually am tired of paying a sub for MMORPG's.  It's a complete rip off and has provided me no additional benefit I haven't had available to me in my preferred F2P titles.  

The fact is F2P is more profitable.  Not only from whales but from subs.  Like I said in my prior post they have more subs now in LotRO after F2P than before the conversion.  Also I don't know where you get that because a game is F2P the devs don't care about it.  Take a look at a fledgling game like Super Monday Night Combat - their team of roughly 14 folks slaves over their F2P title pushing out weekly updates all of which are free to players (sans cosmetics).  Having met the developers I know they're passionate about their game, love to play it, and want to see it succeed.

I won't play games with subs anymore.  I won't become invested in something the developers are milking money from me monthly for while not actually delivering anything more and oftentimes less than many F2P titles on the market.  This doesn't mean there's no room for sub games at all or that some people won't choose to sub, but the reality is F2P is here to stay and it or some variant of it will be the dominant business model for some time to come.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  ojustaboo

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 41

9/15/12 4:15:33 AM#125

Lotro is my favourite mmo of all time with eq2 being a close second.

Sometimes I get tired of it and have a few months break, but I always come back.

The expansion looks awesome to me and most people I know that have tried the beta agree.

I'm a lifetime account holder as are a few others in my kin and we all think the F2P has been a huge benefit to the game, not everyone thinks F2P is a bad thing.  We have lifetime members, VIP players and F2P players  in my kin and we all have a great time. One of the F2P players was mad enough to grind numerous alts to get all content without paying a single penny.

I get 500 turbine points a month as a lifetime member, I've still chosen to spend around £150 a year on buying turbine points to enhance my game play as have most other lifetime members I know. That's about £12.50 a month, most people spend more on junk food. I only buy them when they have their 50% extra bonus point deals on and I see it as a great way of a company getting money to invest in further content (ROR looks awesome).

As to the ops complaint, I can understand their anger but I can't honestly think of one major company anywhere in the world where given the choice I would use. If I want my sky TV I have no choice but use one of two companies, both I detest. If I want to play Lotro I have to use turbine, if I want to play eq2, I have to use Sony etc. I could stop playing and doing anything, not have a mobile/cellphone, never shop at a supermarket, not buy my fav coffee etc etc etc as I don't like the companies that produce them,   but in the real world, I either live a very isolated life to make a point ( a point the majority of people will never make, hence the companies concerned couldn't care less about my protest) , or I accept that big business is evil but something I need to use.

Turbine are bringing out the instance cluster, they won't have it ready in time for the expansions release, rather than delay the expansion further, they are releasing the instance cluster free for people who brought the expansion at a later date. Their decision to release at a later date has nothing to do with the ops protest ( as some have implied) they always planned to release it hence the op heard about it in the preorder.

Someone implied they were conned regarding the bag only being available in the most expensive prepurchase, it's called marketing. Each of the three prepurchase offers clearly told what was included and as I wanted the extra bag, I brought the expensive one.

I can understand turbines point of view on this, by choosing to buy in advance, I ge my extra bag now rather than when the expansion is released, I get other goodies too.  Everything promised in the expansion is being released, just not all at once. Most people I know are a little pissed that the expansion is delayed and the instance cluster will be further delayed, at the same time we would rather it delayed and released when it's finished than rushed out. People who have played the beta also say there's plenty to keep us occupied until the instance cluster is release.

Best 

Joe

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

9/15/12 1:08:08 PM#126

In all honesty im pretty much on the fence in regards to this game.

 

I wasn't impressed by SoM, and RoI i found almost insulting. Going free to play however was the right choice, because honestly the game was dying. It wasn't bleeding subs like .. SWTOR or something, but they clearly could no longer deliver quality and quantity content with the money they made(SoM and RoI where both in developement in the P2P model).

Now with RoR we have the first expansion thats entirely developed in the new F2P model. I will judge them on it, and imho this will show wether they are in maintenance mode or not. What i have seen from RoR has not impressed me that much, they have fundamentally changed very little(talking about animation locking you to the spot etc) and the class balance is still ... not optimal.

But hey, im going to give them the chance to impress me. Lately we even had a dev talking in a thread about housing! He made more posts in a single day in that thread then all of Turbine combined the last 5 years in the housing forum. So about 5. Not that im bitter about it ...

  ScribbleLay1

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 181

9/20/12 1:58:22 PM#127
If anyone wants to trade their lifetime sub for a lifetime sub of Star Trek Online, I am more than willing to jump on it.
  Acidon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/05
Posts: 681

Permafried

9/20/12 2:03:23 PM#128
Originally posted by Rednecksith

BBB is pretty much useless. Contact (or threaten to do so) the FTC instead. They're much more up with the times, and are actually in a position to do something effective.

Or just do a chargeback, eat the ban and tell Turbine to go fornicate themselves with a rusty iron stick.

Exterminate!  Exterminate!  Exterminate!

 

Sorry, just like your avatar..  Moving on..

Playing: The Crew, Defiance, RiFT
Mourning: World of Darkness


Free, Clean & Safe Quality of Life Software:
http://www.acidonsolutions.com

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/20/12 2:06:07 PM#129

From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

 

The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

 

Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

9/20/12 2:09:09 PM#130
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

 

The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

 

Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/20/12 2:14:51 PM#131
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

 

The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

 

Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

 

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2759

9/20/12 2:20:50 PM#132
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

 

They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

 

They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

 

Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

 

Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

 

 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/20/12 2:30:32 PM#133
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

 

They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

 

They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

 

Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

 

Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

 

 

With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

 

I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

 

I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1617

9/20/12 2:38:01 PM#134

This the first time I think I've ever agreed with the a refund complaint for an MMO. 

Print the cashed webpage that lists the instance as a feature of the expansion; showing that it was listed even after you made the pre-purchase and then go to your bank and tell them that you want to charge it back because the developer isn't offering the product that they said they were when you made the purchase.

I would then go to as many gaming sites as I could find with all appropriate evidence and email the writters for those sites asking them to run a story on this. 

This is the absolute definition of bait and switch if you made the purchase while the feature was listed as something you were to recieve with the money you paid.  Turnbine has no right to even threaten bans for people wanting refunds because they aren't getting the product they said they would get. 

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

9/20/12 3:03:40 PM#135
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

 

They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

 

They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

 

Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

 

Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

 

 

With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

 

I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

 

I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

If a Grocery Store advertised to give you a box of cookies and a piece of cake with every ham purchased... and they didn't give you the cake. They would likely give you a refund without any hassle and let you keep the whole box of cookies for free to make up for the inconvenience. That's the way companies who actualy value thier customers behave.

Advertising that you are including something as part of a purchase and then refusing to either deliver the promised item or refund the sale isn't only bad business, it's actualy illegal. What Turbine did would actualy justify an FTC (Federal Trade Commission) complaint. They are lucky they haven't gotten one....and I'm lucky I stopped playing a long time ago. Sad though...once upon a time Turbine was a pretty decent company.

  Torluk

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/09
Posts: 166

9/20/12 3:11:12 PM#136

I think we can all understand why Turbine didn't want to give refunds SnarlingWolf, but that doesn't change the fact that this all resulted from the inaccurate information Turbine directly supplied to their customers.  They made the mistake therefore the burden was all on them whether it was an inconvenience or not.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1617

9/20/12 3:13:59 PM#137
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

 

I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

 

They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

 

They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

 

Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

 

Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

 

 

With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

 

I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

 

I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

If a Grocery Store advertised to give you a box of cookies and a piece of cake with every ham purchased... and they didn't give you the cake. They would likely give you a refund without any hassle and let you keep the whole box of cookies for free to make up for the inconvenience. That's the way companies who actualy value thier customers behave.

Advertising that you are including something as part of a purchase and then refusing to either deliver the promised item or refund the sale isn't only bad business, it's actualy illegal. What Turbine did would actualy justify an FTC (Federal Trade Commission) complaint. They are lucky they haven't gotten one....and I'm lucky I stopped playing a long time ago. Sad though...once upon a time Turbine was a pretty decent company.

 Actually most grocery stores will give you a refund if you open a box of cookies and eat 5, some won't ask any questions, some may want a valid reason.

Hell, I had to return a thing of coffee to the store after I opened it, and made a few pots of coffee with it.  After a few days the coffee went stale, even though I kept it refrigerated like you're supposed to.  It shouldn't go stale after a few days, and the store gave me no problems with returning an opend and used can of coffee. 

The fact that the product that was paid for didn't come with everything they said it would should be all that is required for turbine to give a refund.  It's not like people are asking for a refund because they didn't like it, and most people wouldn't realize something was missing untill after they've applied the code and started playing. 

If Blizzard listed a feature for MoP, I would have no idea that that feature wasn't in the expansion untill after I've started playing it and realized that it wasn't actually available to me. 

Turbine should have informed people before hand that they had to remove a feature of the expansion and gave them a period of time to request a refund, or offered to compensate them with some of whatever currency they use for the MT shop.  Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

9/20/12 3:19:21 PM#138
Turbine has been pulling sleazy shenanigans and doing marketing word games for a long time now.  This is the major reason I no longer play any of their games.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torluk

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/09
Posts: 166

9/20/12 3:25:18 PM#139
Originally posted by Uhwop
Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

  Skooma2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/08
Posts: 681

9/20/12 3:34:53 PM#140

Initially, allow me to state that I have not read every one of the previous posts.  So, if this is a rehash of something that was discussed in the previous 100+ replies, ignore it.

 

I read the response from Turbine, and they are making what amounts to a technical legal argument.  They assert that the purchase at issue was made AFTER they withdrew the instances from inclusion in RoR and that you enjoyed the benefits of the purchase in the interim.   If you purchased after they withdrew the instances then you have no case (and which may account for their threat of sanctions up to possibly banning.)

Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

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