Yep the topic says it all, this is now a hot post on the europe forums, a guy asked why there are no solo raids, and im realy amazed by the amount support he gets...

Thake a look:
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278820&page=1&pp=10

because this is an MMO rpg? And there are tons of solo stuff you can do on your way to 50. raids and dungeons should be, and are meant as, high end group quests

Likely because a solo raid would simply be a whole lot of pinata whacking - and in no way entertaining.

A solo raid would have to be built easy enough that any class could do it.  That means Minstrels with their horrible DPS would be able to wear down the same mobs that a Champ or Hunter could put down.  Likewise, those Champ / Hunters would need to be able to make it through relying only on their innate (awful) healing abilities.

Potentially a given raid could be separately tuned for the individual classes (so that mobs are suited to them) but that basically means taking a long encounter and multiplying the dev work going into it by six.

Even if they went through all of this - the encounter would be hideously boring as you sit and pound on mobs alone for hours.

Raids are not challenging because of the mobs - they're challenging because you have to rely on other players to do what they're supposed to.  Once the tricks are figured out and the raiders know what the deal is - a raid encounter is usually terribly easy.

Because it's just the next natural step on the way to making these games promote no social interaction at all.... exactly the way more and more players seem to want them; to be reduced to Massively Single Player Online RPGs, where everything is easily soloable, with minimal time and effort; there's no penalty at all, ever, for failure of any kind... Basically, there's more and more players who won't be happy until an entire MMO is just one big "You Win!" button.

Every time you give people an inch, it's only a matter of time before they're demanding a foot... then a yard... then a mile...  That's all this is, in action.

It's so funny because before and just after WoW came out, if you'd posted something like that, it would have been considered so far a stretch and so ridiculous an idea, you'd have been laughed off the forums.

Yet, here we are with people actually finding it a good idea.

Just a matter of time, folks.

Unbelievable.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Because it's just the next natural step on the way to making these games promote no social interaction at all.... exactly the way more and more players seem to want them; to be reduced to Massively Single Player Online RPGs, where everything is easily soloable, with minimal time and effort; there's no penalty at all, ever, for failure of any kind... Basically, there's more and more players who won't be happy until an entire MMO is just one big "You Win!" button.

Every time you give people an inch, it's only a matter of time before they're demanding a foot... then a yard... then a mile...  That's all this is, in action.

It's so funny because before and just after WoW came out, if you'd posted something like that, it would have been considered so far a stretch and so ridiculous an idea, you'd have been laughed off the forums.

Yet, here we are with people actually finding it a good idea.

Just a matter of time, folks.

Unbelievable.

 

Yup. Thats why i think all mmos should start out small and grow rather than big then fade away. ala EVE.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by WSIMike

Because it's just the next natural step on the way to making these games promote no social interaction at all.... exactly the way more and more players seem to want them; to be reduced to Massively Single Player Online RPGs, where everything is easily soloable, with minimal time and effort; there's no penalty at all, ever, for failure of any kind... Basically, there's more and more players who won't be happy until an entire MMO is just one big "You Win!" button.

Every time you give people an inch, it's only a matter of time before they're demanding a foot... then a yard... then a mile...  That's all this is, in action.

It's so funny because before and just after WoW came out, if you'd posted something like that, it would have been considered so far a stretch and so ridiculous an idea, you'd have been laughed off the forums.

Yet, here we are with people actually finding it a good idea.

Just a matter of time, folks.

Unbelievable.

 

Yup. Thats why i think all mmos should start out small and grow rather than big then fade away. ala EVE.

Interesting point.. but I'm not sure I understand how you mean. You referring to how Eve kinda started as a "whisper" and then grew via word of mouth? Or... because it wasn't mainstream, they were able to develop the game based on their own vision for it and its player base grew *because* of that. Can you elaborate on that?

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by WSIMike

Because it's just the next natural step on the way to making these games promote no social interaction at all.... exactly the way more and more players seem to want them; to be reduced to Massively Single Player Online RPGs, where everything is easily soloable, with minimal time and effort; there's no penalty at all, ever, for failure of any kind... Basically, there's more and more players who won't be happy until an entire MMO is just one big "You Win!" button.

Every time you give people an inch, it's only a matter of time before they're demanding a foot... then a yard... then a mile...  That's all this is, in action.

It's so funny because before and just after WoW came out, if you'd posted something like that, it would have been considered so far a stretch and so ridiculous an idea, you'd have been laughed off the forums.

Yet, here we are with people actually finding it a good idea.

Just a matter of time, folks.

Unbelievable.

 

Yup. Thats why i think all mmos should start out small and grow rather than big then fade away. ala EVE.

 

Interesting point.. but I'm not sure I understand how you mean. You referring to how Eve kinda started as a "whisper" and then grew via word of mouth? Or... because it wasn't mainstream, they were able to develop the game based on their own vision for it and its player base grew *because* of that. Can you elaborate on that?

Games today usually start with a core, but by the time it launches the core has been changed so much to accomidate the masses that you market the game to..the core audience isnt happy and the masses arent happy because it isnt a game made for them. Developers can do nothing right after that..its gonna piss half there players off whatever they do.

That probably confused you more, cause I dont think I understand what Im saying now either. Sorry not a great communicator of ideas.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Because it's just the next natural step on the way to making these games promote no social interaction at all.... exactly the way more and more players seem to want them; to be reduced to Massively Single Player Online RPGs, where everything is easily soloable, with minimal time and effort; there's no penalty at all, ever, for failure of any kind... Basically, there's more and more players who won't be happy until an entire MMO is just one big "You Win!" button.

Every time you give people an inch, it's only a matter of time before they're demanding a foot... then a yard... then a mile...  That's all this is, in action.

It's so funny because before and just after WoW came out, if you'd posted something like that, it would have been considered so far a stretch and so ridiculous an idea, you'd have been laughed off the forums.

Yet, here we are with people actually finding it a good idea.

Just a matter of time, folks.

Unbelievable.

 

Most people on this planet in this day and age believe it is their right to have everything handed to them and this extends far beyond the realm of MMOs. What is the point of an MMO where everything can be done solo? There isnt one! You might as well go play Neverwinter Nights. I remember back  when I was playing EQ, people would come together to overcome difficult quests and there would be a great sense of accomplishment and camaraderie. These days are gone! Today everyone wants the best loot, armour, jewelry etc, and they want to put in the minimum effort.

I hate to say it but I harken back to the days when PC online gaming was more of an "elite" institution. The type of "McDonalds, for the masses" gaming we have now just plain sucks. It has been transformed into a pathetic game of "My E-peen is bigger than yours" as opposed to dedicated players coming together to overcome difficult odds and having a great time doing it.

S

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
Well i guess small was a bad chioce of words. I think mmos should be made for their particular core audience and marketed to that core rather than marketed to the masses. If you can have 50k happy subs to start with and that was the core you were after, you can grow. If you have 50k happy and 50k unhappy to start because you tried marketing it to the masses thats prolly all your ever gonna get. If you have 50k happy and 100k unhappy cause you went wild with marketing ..you fail soon after. Basically, all im saying is start with your core and give them your full attention and keep them happy as you can...the core audience will grow naturally after that. It doesnt mean it has to be small. If your core audience is 500k people the same formula applies..ala WOW. You just need alot more money to start.

 

Games today usually start with a core, but by the time it launches the core has been changed so much to accomidate the masses that you market the game to..the core audience isnt happy and the masses arent happy because it isnt a game made for them. Developers can do nothing right after that..its gonna piss half there players off whatever they do.

That probably confused you more, cause I dont think I understand what Im saying now either. Sorry not a great communicator of ideas.

The HELL are you talking about, man?!

lol.. Just kidding.. actually that makes perfect sense.

In other words, identify a specific game style and a niche to cater to, and stick to it. The sub numbers won't explode out the gate, but you will build a loyal player base who will stick with you for the long haul, rather than jump ship at every new title to come along.

I think you're absolutely right. Too many developers are trying to be everything to everyone, catering to that "lowest common denominator" and pleasing no one in the end. They're also probably giving themselves a lot more to contend with in development terms than they need to.

I think a great example of that philosophy is Square Enix with FFXI. It's a niche MMO by all accounts; it's one of the few MMOs still around today that is decidedly *not* casual friendly. They have their own approach the genre and their own ideas about how they think a MMO - or at least that MMO - should be. They're sticking to that vision, despite what's going on around them. As a result (reward?) they have maintained ~500k subscribers through it all... through WoW's launch and many other games since then. Because they're catering to a very specific group of people who are looking specifically for the kind of experience that FFXI delivers. They're not wavering to the ones who want everything "faster and easier" and end up leaving anyway when they don't get either "fast enough".. They're remaining loyal to their own vision, and to those who have stuck by them and continued playing.

'course, that said, there are a lot of players in FFXI who still try to carve out a more "soloable" way of playing the game, despite its decidedly more "group effort" approach to the game. Or, insist on trying to define the "best way to play the game". But that's players for you; many will always find the path of least resistance and stick to it.

The thing is... that kind of mentality relies on one very important thing, I think.... That is, an understanding of and a respect for the crowd they're catering to that extends all the way to the highest level of the company. Too many companies don't... all they understand is $$$, and will do whatever gets them the most.

But yeah.. Good call :).

 ... of course, my alternative interpretation of your post is.... that you like navel oranges?

Originally posted by Sharkypal

Most people on this planet in this day and age believe it is their right to have everything handed to them and this extends far beyond the realm of MMOs. What is the point of an MMO where everything can be done solo? There isnt one! You might as well go play Neverwinter Nights. I remember back  when I was playing EQ, people would come together to overcome difficult quests and there would be a great sense of accomplishment and camaraderie. These days are gone! Today everyone wants the best loot, armour, jewelry etc, and they want to put in the minimum effort.

I hate to say it but I harken back to the days when PC online gaming was more of an "elite" institution. The type of "McDonalds, for the masses" gaming we have now just plain sucks. It has been transformed into a pathetic game of "My E-peen is bigger than yours" as opposed to dedicated players coming together to overcome difficult odds and having a great time doing it.

S

Oh I don't know if I'd say it was a more "elitist" institution. I just think people weren't opposed to a challenge and/or weren't in so much of a hurry to get things done "now now now", or perceived that the game was "too slow" if they didn't get things done as quickly as they thought they should.

Check out this video... The creator hits the nail on the head in his description of games and gamers now, as opposed to how they used to be.

Of course, look around now... and even on console games, every game has a speed run posted on the 'net for it; people are praised and touted as truly skilled gamers for finding the most shortcuts/tricks and finishing the games in the least time. That has totally transferred over to MMOs.. people pride themselves on how quickly they can get to end-game and, perhaps, that's why so many are "end-game focused", deeming everything else merely content to get through as quickly as possible.

The games have gotten easier and faster because players overall have become more impatient and less willing to take their time and smell the roses because of some perceived "lack of time".... As is said in a Queensryche song, "Attention spans quickening...".  In MMOs, I never understand that. The average MMO players spends, what... hundreds of hours from the time they start a new MMO 'til the time they log out for the last time? Some easily into the thousands, I'd say. So, what's the hurry? Why the rush to get to the end-game as fast as possible and then spend the rest of your time doing the same end-game content over and over?

This is why I love FFXI.. the game is such a slow-progressing game and everything along the way is so detailed and involved that it makes the journey extremely worthwhile.

Here's somethings to note about FFXI... SE raised the level cap *once* in FFXI. That was with the first expansion, Rise of the Zilart, which was already out by the time of the North American PC release. Since then they have not raised the level cap again - in over 4 years and now their 4th expansion. They've stated repeatedly they have no intention of raising it again because there's already plenty they can do within those 75 levels.

Despite this I have yet to find one person who complains about a "lack of end-game content" in FFXI. And it's not because "they purposely slow you down"as many will argue - those people are simply the type who are always in a hurry and think the point is to get to end game as fast as possible. They're playing the wrong game and, in my opinion, perhaps the wrong genre.

They're still on that "finish it as fast as possible" console-gamer mentality. Say what you want about me for saying that... but in game after game lately, I see the same pattern happening. Those who aren't in a race to get to end-game and actually take their time are happy and find the game fun. Meanwhile, those who race through the content, fixated on "level caps" and "end-games", are ever-complaining about a "lack of content". Meanwhile both types are playing the same game. I think there's merit to seeing it the way I do. The latter of the two just seems to be very self-defeating behavior.

There are players who had leveled all 15 original jobs before another 5 in total were introduced with the last 2 expansions... and no doubt those people have leveled at least a couple of those new ones as well. Those people will still tell you that there's things in FFXI they haven't done yet. The reason is, there's so much content - not only at the high-end/end-game - that you simply *can't* rush through it all. It isn't possible.

One activity, for example, is an "Assault" mission called "Nyzul Isle Investigation". It entails a 100-floor dungeon where every floor is randomly generated/populated... you never know what mobs you're going to encounter and it's common to run into raid-level mobs as you round a corner. Here's the info page for it on ffxiclopedia... Click Here. All that detail... for only a *single* quest area.

So... while other MMO devs are having to increase the level cap and throw in new Raids and new "uber" raid gear every expansion,  just to try and keep up with their players, SE are still packing plenty of content and keeping players plenty busy with the same level cap they introduced over 4 years ago.

Incidentally... I believe I see Turbine taking the same overall approach to LoTRO. While they're still raising level caps... the game is also still young and has a lot of growing to do. I believe they already have a final cap in mind and are going to increase it as new content necessitates it... not the other way around.

I, for one, love FFXI and am extremely glad that SE has stuck to their guns, despite the complaints. As I said in my previous reply. They've remained loyal to their fans... they haven't caved in to the complainers who even still are rallying for things to be "easier" and "faster". They do exist in FFXI.  SE simply doesn't cater to them.