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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Forum » General Discussion » FFXIV ARR, another WoW clone

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147 posts found
  Skuall

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/05
Posts: 811

11/12/12 10:32:14 PM#61

the main point i think is that, mmorpg players DONT NEED another wow clone we have enough already.

if u are going to take ideas , take it from FFXI (pre abyssea) , what awesome experience , i miss it everyday.

i wanted FFXIV to be an improved FFXI (more instanced endgame 4 example ,thats a good idea ) , quest based for solo players , but good exp por partys too .

 

  Ghavrigg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 720

11/12/12 10:32:44 PM#62
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Aviggin

With the original FFXIV, they tried to change everything they could from the current themepark model, and they failed miserably. When the new game director stepped in and did a lot of surveys about what people wanted in the game, it turned out that the majority of people who took the surveys WANTED more WoW-like features to be added, or to replace the current systems in place.

FFXIV ARR is going to be the sum of those surveys and player feedback with some much improved graphics, animations, combat, and, hopefully, story, as well.

It's what the players wanted, and it's what the players are getting.

Are you serious? The person who directed FFXIV 1.0 said he was using WoW as his model os success.  I have mentioned, like 5 other times, how similar FFXIV 1.0 is to WoW.  Can you name some differences?  Expain yourself a little?

 

Where does it say that FFXIV was trying to be entirely original?

Let's see... crafting was unique, guildleves were the quests, and they were quick and time limited, as well as limited in the amount you could do daily (quests similar to WoW not having been available at launch) and, the way the story was presented is much different than WoW, skills were your main progression at first and levels weren't as big of a deal, until they flipped it later down the road, skill xp was given during the fights rather than after them, and they were never guaranteed from every monster...

No auction house or anything at first, and when something was added, they opted for a system where you had an NPC sitting in rooms with a bunch of other NPC's and you basically just wandrered through and checked each one individually to see if they had an item you wanted, and if your NPC was there, you just had to hope someone wandered by, checked your guy and saw somethign they wanted.

The progression wasn't quite as linear as WoW, and sometimes you'd just wander off into zones near where you were questing and run into stuff you couldn't even come close to handling, and even in places in the zone you WERE questing, there was incredibly tough monsters randomly strewn about that you couldn't kill yourself generally.

This is how the game was at launch. There was also not a TON of content, and it was mostly based on grind, which the amount of xp you could grind was also limited weekly I believe... maybe daily.

So there ya go. There's likely more, but I can't think of everything right now.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 937

11/12/12 10:36:45 PM#63
Well 1.0 crafting nothing like wow the u.i nothing like wow the gameplay and mechanics nothing like wow soooooooooooooooo whatever dude.
  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/12/12 10:39:30 PM#64
Originally posted by Wolfenpride
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Aviggin

With the original FFXIV, they tried to change everything they could from the current themepark model, and they failed miserably. When the new game director stepped in and did a lot of surveys about what people wanted in the game, it turned out that the majority of people who took the surveys WANTED more WoW-like features to be added, or to replace the current systems in place.

FFXIV ARR is going to be the sum of those surveys and player feedback with some much improved graphics, animations, combat, and, hopefully, story, as well.

It's what the players wanted, and it's what the players are getting.

Are you serious? The person who directed FFXIV 1.0 said he was using WoW as his model os success.  I have mentioned, like 5 other times, how similar FFXIV 1.0 is to WoW.  Can you name some differences?  Expain yourself a little?

 

Where does it say that FFXIV was trying to be entirely original?

They got seriously distracted if they ever said they were following the WoW model.

 

They opted for a EQ style Bazaar instead of a traditional auction house

It's quests were largely based on the somewhat random leve system and behests

I don't believe dungeons were instanced until later when the new guy took charge

Combat revlolved around buliding TP or a non-recharging mana pool

The UI was in no way similar to what most games go with these days.

The class system was more freeform.

 

They were using some dated ideas you could trace back to a few oldie games, but certainly not WoW's.

The class system and leve quests were unique. The leve system was not fun at all. It can't be traced back to earlier games. A freeform class system can't be traced back to any earlier games either. I'm a fan of multiple classes for one character because it makes that characters more permanent. If you don't have permanence you can't have a community.

All of the major missions and quests were always instanced at some point, for a fight or NPC or something.  I can't think of a single world monster that was epic. Older games had world monsters. I was a white mage and my mana would always replenish within a minute after a fight. The TP was kind of unique. Other games have timers. I can't remember the original interface. Now it is very similar to other games.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/12/12 10:42:08 PM#65
Originally posted by drivendawn
Well 1.0 crafting nothing like wow the u.i nothing like wow the gameplay and mechanics nothing like wow soooooooooooooooo whatever dude.

The crafting was different.  I liked it

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2585

11/12/12 10:49:43 PM#66
Originally posted by drivec

i like this wow has good game play why not take whats already been proven successful and bring it into ff world/lore.

Because it hasn't worked for any other game in the last 8 years?

WoW isn't a very good game, or its clones would be doing well, wouldn't they? WoW is an outlier.

People want originality. XIV had it, but it wasn't finished. It was still far more interesting than a WoW clone. Instead of fixing their design issues, they just cloned WoW, which is a one way ticket to failure.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 937

11/12/12 11:04:23 PM#67
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by drivec

i like this wow has good game play why not take whats already been proven successful and bring it into ff world/lore.

Because it hasn't worked for any other game in the last 8 years?

WoW isn't a very good game, or its clones would be doing well, wouldn't they? WoW is an outlier.

People want originality. XIV had it, but it wasn't finished. It was still far more interesting than a WoW clone. Instead of fixing their design issues, they just cloned WoW, which is a one way ticket to failure.

Yep quest baced leveling and standard UI equals WOW clone and fail lol whatever.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/12/12 11:12:24 PM#68
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by drivec

i like this wow has good game play why not take whats already been proven successful and bring it into ff world/lore.

Because it hasn't worked for any other game in the last 8 years?

WoW isn't a very good game, or its clones would be doing well, wouldn't they? WoW is an outlier.

People want originality. XIV had it, but it wasn't finished. It was still far more interesting than a WoW clone. Instead of fixing their design issues, they just cloned WoW, which is a one way ticket to failure.

Yep quest baced leveling and standard UI equals WOW clone and fail lol whatever.

As well as a short ladder to the top, lots of solo play, lots of instances, every class bring a hybrid, beind led by the nose from point to point, no world monsters, end game focuse, etc.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 937

11/12/12 11:22:51 PM#69
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by drivec

i like this wow has good game play why not take whats already been proven successful and bring it into ff world/lore.

Because it hasn't worked for any other game in the last 8 years?

WoW isn't a very good game, or its clones would be doing well, wouldn't they? WoW is an outlier.

People want originality. XIV had it, but it wasn't finished. It was still far more interesting than a WoW clone. Instead of fixing their design issues, they just cloned WoW, which is a one way ticket to failure.

Yep quest baced leveling and standard UI equals WOW clone and fail lol whatever.

As well as a short ladder to the top, lots of solo play, lots of instances, every class bring a hybrid, beind led by the nose from point to point, no world monsters, end game focuse, etc.

Most of that is in other games.No world bosses where did you read that? XI had hybrid classes and endgame focus.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/12/12 11:26:44 PM#70
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by drivec

i like this wow has good game play why not take whats already been proven successful and bring it into ff world/lore.

Because it hasn't worked for any other game in the last 8 years?

WoW isn't a very good game, or its clones would be doing well, wouldn't they? WoW is an outlier.

People want originality. XIV had it, but it wasn't finished. It was still far more interesting than a WoW clone. Instead of fixing their design issues, they just cloned WoW, which is a one way ticket to failure.

Yep quest baced leveling and standard UI equals WOW clone and fail lol whatever.

As well as a short ladder to the top, lots of solo play, lots of instances, every class bring a hybrid, beind led by the nose from point to point, no world monsters, end game focuse, etc.

Most of that is in other games.No world bosses where did you read that? XI had hybrid classes and endgame focus.

Most of that IS in games post WoW.

The only hybrid class in FFXI, pre WoW influence, was Red Mage. FFXI was as much about the journey as the endgame. There was content to do along the way. The Chains of Promathia Expansion pack required mad grouping, story, and hard ass fights to do as you leveled up.

 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

11/12/12 11:48:23 PM#71
Originally posted by Aviggin

No auction house or anything at first, and when something was added, they opted for a system where you had an NPC sitting in rooms with a bunch of other NPC's and you basically just wandrered through and checked each one individually to see if they had an item you wanted, and if your NPC was there, you just had to hope someone wandered by, checked your guy and saw somethign they wanted.

 

While the implementation was awful, the EQ1 style auction house is 100x more negaging than the WoW style auction house.  A good search function is needed but window shoping in the old Luclin Bazaar was a blast

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

11/13/12 12:01:03 AM#72

Lets clear this up.

 

When Yoshi talks about looking to WoW he means that ARR will have the same quality of life, UI, basic world layout, controls and polish that is the standard in fantasy thempark mmorpgs. Even if you intend to do something very different from WoW you still need to be aware of the standard to know what most people are used to, even if it’s something as basic as inventory system, so you don’t re-invent the wheel unnecessary.

 

Tanaka and his crew where operating in a vacuum, with no idea what the rest of the world had been playing or what devs had been building upon. This isn’t about WoW clones; this is about standards of convenience that FFXIV lacked completely, and for no good reason. It wasn’t a bold new experiment; it was a mess, due to ignorance. The UI had so many awkward and redundant elements, and combat so many stages, the map, NPCs, crafting so convoluted and unhelpful. What few original ideas FFXIV had was lost in the obtuse design, not to mention the technical incompetence.

 

The mmo world, from Rift's server tech and dynamics, to audio NPC info dumps in DCUO, to the action combat in TERA, to open world and pvp in GW2 and story presentation in SWTOR all have something that Squenix can learn from. Only once they know what other ideas have been tried, what has failed and what has worked can they build upon that with something new. If you look at their latest production diaries they are starting to include ideas I have never seen in an MMO, such as boss drops and class gear for you mount.

 

People who worry about a WoW clone fail to appreciate just how out of touch the FFXIV devs where for so long, they need to catch up, even if it means sometimes making the same mistakes others have made.

 

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/13/12 12:18:44 AM#73
Originally posted by zevni78

Lets clear this up.

 

When Yoshi talks about looking to WoW he means that ARR will have the same quality of life, UI, basic world layout, controls and polish that is the standard in fantasy thempark mmorpgs. Even if you intend to do something very different from WoW you still need to be aware of the standard to know what most people are used to, even if it’s something as basic as inventory system, so you don’t re-invent the wheel unnecessary.

 

Tanaka and his crew where operating in a vacuum, with no idea what the rest of the world had been playing or what devs had been building upon. This isn’t about WoW clones; this is about standards of convenience that FFXIV lacked completely, and for no good reason. It wasn’t a bold new experiment; it was a mess, due to ignorance. The UI had so many awkward and redundant elements, and combat so many stages, the map, NPCs, crafting so convoluted and unhelpful. What few original ideas FFXIV had was lost in the obtuse design, not to mention the technical incompetence.

 

The mmo world, from Rift's server tech and dynamics, to audio NPC info dumps in DCUO, to the action combat in TERA, to open world and pvp in GW2 and story presentation in SWTOR all have something that Squenix can learn from. Only once they know what other ideas have been tried, what has failed and what has worked can they build upon that with something new. If you look at their latest production diaries they are starting to include ideas I have never seen in an MMO, such as boss drops and class gear for you mount.

 

People who worry about a WoW clone fail to appreciate just how out of touch the FFXIV devs where for so long, they need to catch up, even if it means sometimes making the same mistakes others have made.

 

I just don't want to run around killing everything in site while I'm spamming buttons. I don't want to run from map marker to map marker. I don't want to solo to max level so that "the game can start" and I can participate in raids. I have no desire to be max level within a few months of playing. I have no desire to do instanced dungeons. If I wanted to play a game with 6 other people I would play Starcraft or Diablo. If it isn't challenging I don't want to play it. FFXIV 1.0 was most of what I just mentioned.  WoW was also this. Sorry about my babbling

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

11/13/12 12:25:16 AM#74

Reading threw the thread again there seems to be some confusion as to the order of events.

Tanaka was in charge of FFXIV 1.0 from the start until he was booted off a few months after launch. He and his crew knew of WoW only as a rival, the suits upstairs insisted FFXIV launch before it was ready to beat Cata’s release. (Though the premature release wouldn’t have helped with all the other deeper problems).

Tanaka and Co. Made FFXIV according to what their own ideas as to what would be convenient for them to manage, resulting in stiff penalisations and limitations for players. Tanaka didn’t include many elements from FFXI, or any other game. I’ve played most of his previous projects for Square, none are has badly designed. FFXIV didn’t just lack basic features from WoW, but from just about every rpg or MMO of the last 10-20 yrs. Different but often in a very bad way was the FFXIV experience.

Yoshida took over with his new team and took a great deal of advice and criticism from players from Japan and the West, and found among other things that most were used to certain basics. We didn’t want a WoW clone, or even a total FFXI clone, just an mmo that innovated where it needed to, and didn’t either try new ideas without testing them, or use old ideas that the mmo player and developer community had moved on from.

 

It is not being derivative to learn from hundreds of other studios and millions of cases of trial and error.

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

11/13/12 12:38:52 AM#75
Originally posted by Magiknight     I just don't want to run around killing everything in site while I'm spamming buttons. I don't want to run from map marker to map marker. I don't want to solo to max level so that "the game can start" and I can participate in raids. I have no desire to be max level within a few months of playing. I have no desire to do instanced dungeons. If I wanted to play a game with 6 other people I would play Starcraft or Diablo. If it isn't challenging I don't want to play it. FFXIV 1.0 was most of what I just mentioned.  WoW was also this. Sorry about my babbling

 

Fare enough, if you could get through the bad design in 1.0 (which was a challenge in itself) I guess there was un-inspired game play, but not due to looking at WoW, just a lack of imagination, (and content). There were more group and crafting focused elements (although very badly done), and open world NMs than WoW had, not to mention story, if the lack of audio didn’t bug you. I can see why instances would be an easier solution. But that was for 1.0, Yoshi was only able to add things on a system he intended to scrap. Only with ARR will we see if he can pull-off good open world, besides given the single player origins, FF does kind of lend itself to instanced dungeons. I also object to any comparison of the guild leaves to WoW style quest hubs, those leaves struck me as a massive step back from even WoW's design.

 

It sounds like you have a very specialized set of requirements, what mmos out now would you say fill them?

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/13/12 12:41:20 AM#76
Originally posted by zevni78

Reading threw the thread again there seems to be some confusion as to the order of events.

Tanaka was in charge of FFXIV 1.0 from the start until he was booted off a few months after launch. He and his crew knew of WoW only as a rival, the suits upstairs insisted FFXIV launch before it was ready to beat Cata’s release. (Though the premature release wouldn’t have helped with all the other deeper problems).

Tanaka and Co. Made FFXIV according to what their own ideas as to what would be convenient for them to manage, resulting in stiff penalisations and limitations for players. Tanaka didn’t include many elements from FFXI, or any other game. I’ve played most of his previous projects for Square, none are has badly designed. FFXIV didn’t just lack basic features from WoW, but from just about every rpg or MMO of the last 10-20 yrs. Different but often in a very bad way was the FFXIV experience.

Yoshida took over with his new team and took a great deal of advice and criticism from players from Japan and the West, and found among other things that most were used to certain basics. We didn’t want a WoW clone, or even a total FFXI clone, just an mmo that innovated where it needed to, and didn’t either try new ideas without testing them, or use old ideas that the mmo player and developer community had moved on from.

 

It is not being derivative to learn from hundreds of other studios and millions of cases of trial and error.

The same person, Komoto, directed FFXI and FFXIV. He played Everquest. How did the game lack basic features of MMORPGs from the last 10-20 years? FFXIV was badly designed. I don't think anyone will dispute that. What are you speaking of when you say "stiff penalisations and limitations?" The point of the thread was how much FFXIV ARR will be like WoW. Yoshida also wrote off the opinions of everyone who played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0. I cna only guess where he is getting his criticisms from.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/13/12 12:47:20 AM#77
Originally posted by zevni78
Originally posted by Magiknight     I just don't want to run around killing everything in site while I'm spamming buttons. I don't want to run from map marker to map marker. I don't want to solo to max level so that "the game can start" and I can participate in raids. I have no desire to be max level within a few months of playing. I have no desire to do instanced dungeons. If I wanted to play a game with 6 other people I would play Starcraft or Diablo. If it isn't challenging I don't want to play it. FFXIV 1.0 was most of what I just mentioned.  WoW was also this. Sorry about my babbling

 

Fare enough, if you could get through the bad design in 1.0 (which was a challenge in itself) I guess there was un-inspired game play, but not due to looking at WoW, just a lack of imagination, (and content). There were more group and crafting focused elements (although very badly done), and open world NMs than WoW had, not to mention story, if the lack of audio didn’t bug you. I can see why instances would be an easier solution. But that was for 1.0, Yoshi was only able to add things on a system he intended to scrap. Only with ARR will we see if he can pull-off good open world, besides given the single player origins, FF does kind of lend itself to instanced dungeons. I also object to any comparison of the guild leaves to WoW style quest hubs, those leaves struck me as a massive step back from even WoW's design.

 

It sounds like you have a very specialized set of requirements, what mmos out now would you say fill them?

I never said guild leves were comparable to WoW style quest hubs..........

I know 1.0 was badly designed, everyone knows this.  I hated 1.0. FFXIV 1.0 had no more group conent than WoW. None whatsoever.  You can solo to max level. I never once encountered a world NM in 1.0.  I only played to level 35 (I think). The story was terrible in WoW (look at the introduction movie). I don't see how instanced dungeons are related to Final Fantasy or any MMO. They are for people who want to play with 5 or 6 other people and come back to a massive economy or massive PVP.

The number of games released in the past 10 years that interest me is 0.

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

11/13/12 1:09:38 AM#78
Originally posted by Magiknight
The same person, Komoto, directed FFXI and FFXIV. He played Everquest.
I don't care what he played, the entire team was out of touch, (as they admit) that's all that mattered.
How did the game lack basic features of MMORPGs from the last 10-20 years?
Did you play it? Do I seriously need to list all the things it lacked? I've done so many times here, and so have others. How did Chrono Trigger and SoM from 20 yrs ago manage to provide a smooth UI without such pain for e.g. ? 
FFXIV was badly designed. I don't think anyone will dispute that. What are you speaking of when you say "stiff penalisations and limitations?"
The leave limitations, fatigue system and anima limits at launch for starters. This goes back to WoW vanilla, and possibly even before when they found that positive re-enforment of bonus rest exp from being offline enough was better than penalization, very few mmos failed to learn that. There where many other negative re-enforment methods Tanaka used, many where removed within months, I can't remember them all, but accounts claim many where dev convenience, not player.
The point of the thread was how much FFXIV ARR will be like WoW.
An issue I am addressed.
Yoshida also wrote off the opinions of everyone who played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0. I cna only guess where he is getting his criticisms from.
Quite frankly, from what I've seen of some fans of FFXIV's launch state, I wouldnt take any advice from them, there seems to be a lot of denial among them. Even on these threads the excuses, from FFXI fans somehow brainwashing everyone into hating the game, to the negative reviews being down to FFXIV just being different, make me concerned for their mental health. Besides even of those whose opinions are valid, the numbers that staying after the exodus would never be enough, at the same time the gratitude towards them seems sincere. Besides, quite a lot more than I would recommend is being preserved.
As to FFXI fans, a large amount of elements from that mmo are being added to ARR, some are complaining that its too much, other FFXI fans have said they are not asking for a XI clone. You can't please everyone, they have to aim for a larger number of potential players, given the budget of this reboot. The FF franchise isnt supposed to be that niche.

 

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

 
OP  11/13/12 1:18:23 AM#79
Originally posted by zevni78
Originally posted by Magiknight
The same person, Komoto, directed FFXI and FFXIV. He played Everquest.
I don't care what he played, the entire team was out of touch, (as they admit) that's all that mattered.
How did the game lack basic features of MMORPGs from the last 10-20 years?
Did you play it? Do I seriously need to list all the things it lacked? I've done so many times here, and so have others. How did Chrono Trigger and SoM from 20 yrs ago manage to provide a smooth UI without such pain for e.g. ? 
FFXIV was badly designed. I don't think anyone will dispute that. What are you speaking of when you say "stiff penalisations and limitations?"
The leave limitations, fatigue system and anima limits at launch for starters. This goes back to WoW vanilla, and possibly even before when they found that positive re-enforment of bonus rest exp from being offline enough was better than penalization, very few mmos failed to learn that. There where many other negative re-enforment methods Tanaka used, many where removed within months, I can't remember them all, but accounts claim many where dev convenience, not player.
The point of the thread was how much FFXIV ARR will be like WoW.
An issue I am addressed.
Yoshida also wrote off the opinions of everyone who played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0. I cna only guess where he is getting his criticisms from.
Quite frankly, from what I've seen of some fans of FFXIV's launch state, I wouldnt take any advice from them, there seems to be a lot of denial among them. Even on these threads the excuses, from FFXI fans somehow brainwashing everyone into hating the game, to the negative reviews being down to FFXIV just being different, make me concerned for their mental health. Besides even of those whose opinions are valid, the numbers that staying after the exodus would never be enough, at the same time the gratitude towards them seems sincere. Besides, quite a lot more than I would recommend is being preserved.
As to FFXI fans, a large amount of elements from that mmo are being added to ARR, some are complaining that its too much, other FFXI fans have said they are not asking for a XI clone. You can't please everyone, they have to aim for a larger number of potential players, given the budget of this reboot. The FF franchise isnt supposed to be that niche.

 

The original team said they were using WoW as their model of success. They can admit whatever they want after the fact, it doesn't matter. I don't care anything about FFXIV 1.0.  What it lacked, penalties, community, are of no concern.

The entire point of this thread was to address ARR and its relationship to WoW. I don't see much concering that.

  henryk

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2

11/13/12 1:24:39 AM#80
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Aviggin

With the original FFXIV, they tried to change everything they could from the current themepark model, and they failed miserably. When the new game director stepped in and did a lot of surveys about what people wanted in the game, it turned out that the majority of people who took the surveys WANTED more WoW-like features to be added, or to replace the current systems in place.

FFXIV ARR is going to be the sum of those surveys and player feedback with some much improved graphics, animations, combat, and, hopefully, story, as well.

It's what the players wanted, and it's what the players are getting.

Are you serious? The person who directed FFXIV 1.0 said he was using WoW as his model os success.  I have mentioned, like 5 other times, how similar FFXIV 1.0 is to WoW.  Can you name some differences?  Expain yourself a little?

Where does it say that FFXIV was trying to be entirely original? Not a single person complained about FFXIV 1.0 graphics or animations. Guess what the current director is always talking about concerning ARR?  Graphics and animations.........

I read stuff like this, and I want to crawl in a hole and die. Aviggin, just because a game fails does not mean that it was trying to be original.....

 

Here's what you say about the similarities between FFXVI 1.0 and WoW. 

FFXIV might be a commercial success...................but what else would you call it a success in?  How many other games are commercial successes with absolutely nothing else to mention about them?

FFXIV took numerous concepts from WoW.  The heart of FFXIV is a shadow of WoW.  To be specific, every class in FFXIV is a hybrid, similar to WoW.  A conjurer can heal and do damage.  A paladin can take hits and deal damage.  Everything is pretty much given to you in both games.  Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out.  There is no real in-game danger in either game.  When you die your armor is damaged and you have to spend a negligable amount of money fixing it.  Both games are extremely solo friendly.  Both have short ladders to the top and make the journey to the top trivial.  I could go on and on...........  I try and come up with differences and I can only come up with names.  Chocobo vs. horse, white mage vs priest, name of such and such monster with such and such monster............

As someone who's been playing FFXIV 1.0 from beginning to end, and also played WOW up until WotLK, I believe they are quite different. I have also played EQ2 for over a year, LOTRO since launch, SWG since launch till NGE, TSW since launch, GW2 since launch. SWTOR for 6 months, for your info.

Not every class of FFXIV is a hybrid. While it is true that before the job system came about, the distinction between the melee classes weren't big in terms of individual skills, they are very different in how a player can build their character because each of the 7 classes (melee & magic) can equip up to a certain number of skills from other classes provided that 1) the same character already learned those skills as another class; 2) those skills are one of a subset of each class' available skills that could be learned by another class. That's right! FFXIV 1.0 (and 2.0) characters can level each and every single class individually. You could  decide to have no level as a gladiator, but play to lvl 20 in conjurer, lvl 30 in lancer, lvl 50 as a marauder. The same goes for Disciplines of Land (3 classes of material gatherers) and Disciplines of Craft (8 classes in total). Some people have hit lvl 50 in all 18 classes in ONE SINGLE TOON. Please tell me how is it similar to WOW, in which each toon can only be one combat-oriented class as the main class and a few crafting / gathering classes?? 

Conjurer (as a class) and Paladin (as a job -- it wasnt even in FFXIV until the last year or so) are professions that existed since single player FF games are around over a decade ago. Tell me, how are they a copy of WOW's ideas? EQ2 also have similar classes with different names. EQ2 came out literally at the same time as WOW. I don't think they copy it off of each other in their class design. Rather, all these fantasy-genre games are always getting the staple professions from traditional fantasy settings, and in terms of computer games, among the first to put in these classes would be games like Wizardy, Bard's Tale, and Ultima (not even online yet!). So, just having a paladin that heals and can fight is by no mean saying that FFXIV got the idea from WoW. Dungeons and Dragons had paladins that can fight and heal since the 1980's!!

Travelling is very different. In WOW your toon literally ride on pets or autorouted vehicles / monsters. There's only 1 "return home" point where you use your item to return to a certain location defined by the player. FFXIV also allow players to teleport to one location (later 2, with one being a city and one being a camp) with 'Return", but it also allows player to teleport to any camp they have discovered provided that something called anima is available. Riding pet (of which there are only two) did not come up until way after launch. So, most people travel to all kinds of locations using anima. That's not the same as WoW, in which the players really enjoy the physical "rides" on flying mounts or boats etc at the earlier period of the game.

Earning EXP is also very different. WOW in essence is a themepark game. FFXIV is mostly a sandbox game in terms of earning EXP. They have < 200 uniquie quests and most of the EXP are earned via levequests, which are repeatable quests from the few NPCs in town. Story based quests are available based on class levels (for class quests), highest class level ( for main story line quests), and later on from specific NPCs, job levels, and Grand Companies ranks. The story-based quests are very cohesive and many of them are tied to the big storyline. However, it is impossible to level your PC from level 1 to max (lvl 50) just doing storyline quests. Also, vast majority of players play multiple classes. In order to do so, they have to do repeatable quests. WOW? While they have repeatable quests, for those that are not at max level or earning reputations, they are not required to level. Rather players are moving from regions to higher level regions to pick up quests from quest hub NPCs. The one game which I found to be very similar to FFXIV in terms of earning EXPs was actually SWG. SWG players also get repeatable quests from mission terminals based on level range, and grind them day after day to gain EXP, as the themepart / quest hubs there were quite limited before NGE. Another similarity between SWG and FFXIV is that both allow player to progress in multiple class in one toon, wiith your toon using skills from multi-class in a specific "build".. The differences are that the "builds" from SWG are quite fixed (ie. you switch skills with penalty, meaning you basically forfeit the EXP earned to gain a skill if you want to switch out a skill). On the other hand, in FFXIV you can switch skills on the fly (when not in combat) as long as you switch your main weapon. In that sense, TSW's character progression is also similar. TSW is a themepark game but its character progression / skils wheels share some similarities between SWG and FFXIV, with some of their own twists. Anyway, the point is, WOW is very different from SWG or FFXIV in terms of character progression and EXP earning

Armor - while the function of armors ingame is similar between the two, so are the armor systems in most other fantasy genre MMORPG. While the individual parameters may be different, the idea's not that different from the AC-based systems fromm D&D which started ages ago. Even critical hit, etc came from D&D. The only one game I could think of that break the mode, at least aesthetically, is TSW. Toons there don't actually wear armors. They wear whatevery clothings they can buy (in game or with real money) / earn (from quests or achievements) with no stats.The stats are only in their assessories and weapons. In other words, assessories in TSW = armors in other games. Another game that gives players more freedom on how they look would be LOTRO (appearance can be separate from armors if players want to). To particular call out FFXIV's armor system as similar to WOW is similar to calling out humans and monkeys as similar because they are both primates. Are there similaries? There are! Are they identical? No way! Most current MMORPGs require minimal costs in fixing armors when damaged. Try to name a few game which cost you a fortune to fix damaged armors or are non-repairable when damaged and players have to buy a new set! Such a game may exist, but I bet that'd be a minority out there. (Vanguard or EQ1 maybe?? I am just guessing here as I haven't played both)

Extremely solo friendly?? I wouldn't call it a similarity. First of all, solo cannot get you even your job quests or Grand Company quests done in FFXIV! To get to even the "standard" in job armor or to be at the highest Grand Company ranking, you HAVE to do several quests in a group in dungeons / instances. How is that solo friendly? You could level all 7 combat classes in FFXIV to level 50 solo, but you won't be considered at the minimal efficiency of your jobs if you don't at least complete your job quests (which not only give you pieces of your job armors, but also some job skills. No quest completion which requires a group, no job skills. Also, that's a series of 4-5 prolonged quests for each job, not just one single quest). Same goes for main story line that led to the end of 1.0. Several of the quests are group only. Without groups, you'll never see the end of the main quest line. On the other hand, WOW has PVP and raids. FFXIV 1.0 didn't. It has dungeons and group quests, but not the same style as WOW's raids.

Crafting and gathering are also entirely different in FFXIV 1.0 vs. WOW. The whole process of gathering and crafting require 0 player skills at WOW when you are doing it. While it requires a lot of skills or in-game currencies to collect the right materials or earn the skematics in WOW, It's automated as long as you have the right tools / class / ingredients. It is entirely different from FFXIV, whereby both crafting and gathering require players to do a repetitive mini-game with "some" player skills involved.  Each crafting require players to press at least 10 buttons to get it done as quick as possible, and a lot more if you want to get more EXP out of it. It is somewhat similar to EQ2 in which you have to handle certain situation  with certain ingame skills when you are in the middle of crafting an item, or your crafting will fail. WoW? You put the stuffs in place, hit craft, and you're done! (At least that's how I remember it).

I hope I've said enough to tell you that your conclusion that FFXIV 1.0 and WOW are similar are no where near the truth. Please tell me if you have been playing FFXIV 1.0 and from when to when to arrive at your view point about FFXIV 1.0

I have no idea how FFXIV 2.0 will play like, since I have not been part of the alpha testing that's ongoing. From all the videos that I have seen, it's certainly playing very similar to a modern MMORPG. Yoshida-san quoted WOW as one where they would model FFXIV ARR after, because WOW is seen as the global standard of a modern MMORPG. It means that ARR will have a lot of standard modern MMORPG features such as auction house, in-game mailing, flexible UIs (with no pull down menu-driven commands), which are pretty much in ALL modern MMORPGs, be it LOTRO, TSW, GW2, SWTOR, or EQ2, BUT WERE MISSING IN FFXIV 1.0 and players saw those as must-have features. It doesn't mean that ARR will be a clone in particular to WOW. The character job / class structure (1 toon, all classes / jobs), crafting, gathering, player housing, chocobo raising (i.e., a pet you raise at your house that could join your party as a member, fight with you or just allow you to ride on it, wiith different skill sets - vaguely similar to the new combat mounts at LOTRO but with some differences), hamlet defenses, etc are all very different than WOW or are entirely missing from WOW.

Those features that I have mentioned that are missing from FFXIV 1.0, the shift from repeatable quest leveling to more heavy emphasis on themepark-type quest progression, and the UI are the key things that Yoshida is trying to model after WOW, or any other modern non-sandbox MMORPGs. He is NOT making FFXIV ARR a WOW Clone with FF skin. 

Sorry about the long essay, but I just feel I need to clear up some misunderstandings on FFXIV 1.0 or ARR since it has not been a popular game since launch and many MMORPG gamers have not tried it and wouldn't know HOW it is different than WOW. 

Cheer!

 

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