Originally posted by dterry

I vote for the D2 method of encouraging grouping... make the drops random and if you have more people you have more drops... so better odds that you get the item you need. But you can still solo the content if you are a Clint Eastwood fan like me.

I am fine with running it ten times to your one to get what I need.

 

Edit - what I don't like was in FFXI when I realized in order to get my AF gear I would have to stand around Jueno begging for a 70 to run me through it... and hence I quit.

Yeah that's another ugly side of many people in FFXI... the "What's in it for me?" syndrome. If there's no benefit to them helping you (because simply being helpful isn't rewarding in itself for some, I guess) they're not interested.

 

Sad, still my favorite game. - in spite of that.

I hope they make the majority of the game group based and just sprinkle in some soloable quests. One of the stong points of FFXI was the community and I see it being no different in FFXIV. I may just have to give FFXI another whirl until FFXIV releases.

If they make this game primarily group based I will be all over it despite my dislike for the graphics.  One of the things that bugs me about the communities I come across now is when people just up and leave a group at the end of a run and doesn't bother to say anything.  Not a "good run everyone" or "thanks for the group" they just up and leave.  They got what they wanted from you and the others and the bolt when they are done with you. 

I miss the community that I experienced in games that forced group play (most notably EQ).  People would chit chat away while filling in thier roles in the party and both co-existed nicely with one another.  Sure someone would occasionally pull an extra mob or two because they were autorunning while they were finishing up a line of text but I didn't mind. 

I don't want to get away from the games and join a chat room but a game isn't very difficult and having a good group of people to chat with while you have fun playing the game just makes it that much better of an experience.  Sure guilds are good for those experiences now (in some cases anyways) but it's also nice to just PuG and meet new people while you do your hunting.

Originally posted by jmsgalla

If they make this game primarily group based I will be all over it despite my dislike for the graphics.  One of the things that bugs me about the communities I come across now is when people just up and leave a group at the end of a run and doesn't bother to say anything.  Not a "good run everyone" or "thanks for the group" they just up and leave.  They got what they wanted from you and the others and the bolt when they are done with you. 

I miss the community that I experienced in games that forced group play (most notably EQ).  People would chit chat away while filling in thier roles in the party and both co-existed nicely with one another.  Sure someone would occasionally pull an extra mob or two because they were autorunning while they were finishing up a line of text but I didn't mind. 

I don't want to get away from the games and join a chat room but a game isn't very difficult and having a good group of people to chat with while you have fun playing the game just makes it that much better of an experience.  Sure guilds are good for those experiences now (in some cases anyways) but it's also nice to just PuG and meet new people while you do your hunting.

This can happen in ANY game.  It's an issue of individuals, and not something game mechanics can properly fix.  Certainly even in FFXI you can have almost no talking in a group situation if people don't want to talk.  The exception might be, as you said, forced wait time while forming a group, but a game shouldn't force people to sit around like that.  The best way to handle this as a player is simply to talk when you can and make friends with who will talk, rather than expecting developers to essentially lock you in a room with other players where all you can really do is talk.  On the plus side, it is easier with voice chatting, since you can talk while doing other things (the main reason why text talk is difficult while doing something is that your hands are occupied doing something else).

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by jmsgalla

If they make this game primarily group based I will be all over it despite my dislike for the graphics.  One of the things that bugs me about the communities I come across now is when people just up and leave a group at the end of a run and doesn't bother to say anything.  Not a "good run everyone" or "thanks for the group" they just up and leave.  They got what they wanted from you and the others and the bolt when they are done with you. 

I miss the community that I experienced in games that forced group play (most notably EQ).  People would chit chat away while filling in thier roles in the party and both co-existed nicely with one another.  Sure someone would occasionally pull an extra mob or two because they were autorunning while they were finishing up a line of text but I didn't mind. 

I don't want to get away from the games and join a chat room but a game isn't very difficult and having a good group of people to chat with while you have fun playing the game just makes it that much better of an experience.  Sure guilds are good for those experiences now (in some cases anyways) but it's also nice to just PuG and meet new people while you do your hunting.

 

This can happen in ANY game.  It's an issue of individuals, and not something game mechanics can properly fix.  Certainly even in FFXI you can have almost no talking in a group situation if people don't want to talk.  The exception might be, as you said, forced wait time while forming a group, but a game shouldn't force people to sit around like that.  The best way to handle this as a player is simply to talk when you can and make friends with who will talk, rather than expecting developers to essentially lock you in a room with other players where all you can really do is talk.  On the plus side, it is easier with voice chatting, since you can talk while doing other things (the main reason why text talk is difficult while doing something is that your hands are occupied doing something else).

There's a lot wrong with that post.

First... No one "forces you to sit down and talk" when you're partied, nor even when a group is coming together. It happens naturally. Second, in 6+ years playing FFXI, I can think of maybe 3 times I was in a party when no one really talked - and it was primarily Japanese players who didn't know English. It simply didn't happen.

Second... Downtime was often the result of people needing to take a break to get food, or to run to the store, to go to the bathroom, etc. etc. It wasn't always because of gameplay mechanics, though often, reasons overlapped.

Third... Again, the problem of groups coming together is too often mischaracterized and/or exaggerated. Could parties be difficult to assemble at times? Absolutely. However, many times people have complained about sitting around waiting for an invite, there were enough people seeking to fill out a few parties in Lower Jeuno alone. The reason they didn't come together is because every one of them was sitting around waiting for someone else to invite them.

There was also the problem of people only wanting parties with a specific setup... only wanting a Ninja to tank when a Paladin was perfectly viable... and so they'd sit around waiting for a Ninja to show up. And so on.

Again, it bugs me when I see people take such a narrow view toward things and always assume it's the developer's/game's fault without stopping and looking at what *they're* doing.

A classic example is people complaining about how FFXI is nothing but a level grind and there's nothing else to do. You ask them:

"Did you do any quests?" "No"
"Did you do Dynamis?" 'No"
"Missions?" "Only those I have to"
"Salvage?" "No"
"Assault?" "No"
"BCNMs?" No"
"Craft?" "No"
"Fish?" "No"
... and so on with at least another handful of possible activities...

Finally you get to asking them "well, if you had all those other things to do, but didn't... then what did you spend most of your time doing?" "Grinding levels".

Well there ya go... They chose to do nothing but grind levels and ignore everything else they could have... and then they blame the game for "being nothing but a level grind". Go figure.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by jmsgalla

If they make this game primarily group based I will be all over it despite my dislike for the graphics.  One of the things that bugs me about the communities I come across now is when people just up and leave a group at the end of a run and doesn't bother to say anything.  Not a "good run everyone" or "thanks for the group" they just up and leave.  They got what they wanted from you and the others and the bolt when they are done with you. 

I miss the community that I experienced in games that forced group play (most notably EQ).  People would chit chat away while filling in thier roles in the party and both co-existed nicely with one another.  Sure someone would occasionally pull an extra mob or two because they were autorunning while they were finishing up a line of text but I didn't mind. 

I don't want to get away from the games and join a chat room but a game isn't very difficult and having a good group of people to chat with while you have fun playing the game just makes it that much better of an experience.  Sure guilds are good for those experiences now (in some cases anyways) but it's also nice to just PuG and meet new people while you do your hunting.

 

This can happen in ANY game.  It's an issue of individuals, and not something game mechanics can properly fix.  Certainly even in FFXI you can have almost no talking in a group situation if people don't want to talk.  The exception might be, as you said, forced wait time while forming a group, but a game shouldn't force people to sit around like that.  The best way to handle this as a player is simply to talk when you can and make friends with who will talk, rather than expecting developers to essentially lock you in a room with other players where all you can really do is talk.  On the plus side, it is easier with voice chatting, since you can talk while doing other things (the main reason why text talk is difficult while doing something is that your hands are occupied doing something else).

 

There's a lot wrong with that post.

First... No one "forces you to sit down and talk" when you're partied, nor even when a group is coming together. It happens naturally. Second, in 6+ years playing FFXI, I can think of maybe 3 times I was in a party when no one really talked - and it was primarily Japanese players who didn't know English. It simply didn't happen.

Second... Downtime was often the result of people needing to take a break to get food, or to run to the store, to go to the bathroom, etc. etc. It wasn't always because of gameplay mechanics, though often, reasons overlapped.

Third... Again, the problem of groups coming together is too often mischaracterized and/or exaggerated. Could parties be difficult to assemble at times? Absolutely. However, many times people have complained about sitting around waiting for an invite, there were enough people seeking to fill out a few parties in Lower Jeuno alone. The reason they didn't come together is because every one of them was sitting around waiting for someone else to invite them.

There was also the problem of people only wanting parties with a specific setup... only wanting a Ninja to tank when a Paladin was perfectly viable... and so they'd sit around waiting for a Ninja to show up. And so on.

Again, it bugs me when I see people take such a narrow view toward things and always assume it's the developer's/game's fault without stopping and looking at what *they're* doing.

A classic example is people complaining about how FFXI is nothing but a level grind and there's nothing else to do. You ask them:

"Did you do any quests?" "No"
"Did you do Dynamis?" 'No"
"Missions?" "Only those I have to"
"Salvage?" "No"
"Assault?" "No"
"BCNMs?" No"
"Craft?" "No"
"Fish?" "No"
... and so on with at least another handful of possible activities...

Finally you get to asking them "well, if you had all those other things to do, but didn't... then what did you spend most of your time doing?" "Grinding levels".

Well there ya go... They chose to do nothing but grind levels and ignore everything else they could have... and then they blame the game for "being nothing but a level grind". Go figure.

 

QFT, awesome post

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by jmsgalla

If they make this game primarily group based I will be all over it despite my dislike for the graphics.  One of the things that bugs me about the communities I come across now is when people just up and leave a group at the end of a run and doesn't bother to say anything.  Not a "good run everyone" or "thanks for the group" they just up and leave.  They got what they wanted from you and the others and the bolt when they are done with you. 

I miss the community that I experienced in games that forced group play (most notably EQ).  People would chit chat away while filling in thier roles in the party and both co-existed nicely with one another.  Sure someone would occasionally pull an extra mob or two because they were autorunning while they were finishing up a line of text but I didn't mind. 

I don't want to get away from the games and join a chat room but a game isn't very difficult and having a good group of people to chat with while you have fun playing the game just makes it that much better of an experience.  Sure guilds are good for those experiences now (in some cases anyways) but it's also nice to just PuG and meet new people while you do your hunting.

 

This can happen in ANY game.  It's an issue of individuals, and not something game mechanics can properly fix.  Certainly even in FFXI you can have almost no talking in a group situation if people don't want to talk.  The exception might be, as you said, forced wait time while forming a group, but a game shouldn't force people to sit around like that.  The best way to handle this as a player is simply to talk when you can and make friends with who will talk, rather than expecting developers to essentially lock you in a room with other players where all you can really do is talk.  On the plus side, it is easier with voice chatting, since you can talk while doing other things (the main reason why text talk is difficult while doing something is that your hands are occupied doing something else).

 

There's a lot wrong with that post.

First... No one "forces you to sit down and talk" when you're partied, nor even when a group is coming together. It happens naturally. Second, in 6+ years playing FFXI, I can think of maybe 3 times I was in a party when no one really talked - and it was primarily Japanese players who didn't know English. It simply didn't happen.

Second... Downtime was often the result of people needing to take a break to get food, or to run to the store, to go to the bathroom, etc. etc. It wasn't always because of gameplay mechanics, though often, reasons overlapped.

Third... Again, the problem of groups coming together is too often mischaracterized and/or exaggerated. Could parties be difficult to assemble at times? Absolutely. However, many times people have complained about sitting around waiting for an invite, there were enough people seeking to fill out a few parties in Lower Jeuno alone. The reason they didn't come together is because every one of them was sitting around waiting for someone else to invite them.

There was also the problem of people only wanting parties with a specific setup... only wanting a Ninja to tank when a Paladin was perfectly viable... and so they'd sit around waiting for a Ninja to show up. And so on.

Again, it bugs me when I see people take such a narrow view toward things and always assume it's the developer's/game's fault without stopping and looking at what *they're* doing.

A classic example is people complaining about how FFXI is nothing but a level grind and there's nothing else to do. You ask them:

"Did you do any quests?" "No"
"Did you do Dynamis?" 'No"
"Missions?" "Only those I have to"
"Salvage?" "No"
"Assault?" "No"
"BCNMs?" No"
"Craft?" "No"
"Fish?" "No"
... and so on with at least another handful of possible activities...

Finally you get to asking them "well, if you had all those other things to do, but didn't... then what did you spend most of your time doing?" "Grinding levels".

Well there ya go... They chose to do nothing but grind levels and ignore everything else they could have... and then they blame the game for "being nothing but a level grind". Go figure.

 

\ \

Originally posted by Sixpax

I don't think people are necessarily against grouping, they are just against all the logistical problems of grouping.  Waiting long periods for an invite, long travel times, not playing one of the ideal classes, not being able to switch to another class while LFP, no content to keep you occupied while you wait, not being able to leave a group when you want/need to, etc.  Those are the problems that need to be addressed, and the answer isn't making it more "solo friendly".  FFXI was group-dependent, but it wasn't group-friendly.  For FFXIV, they need to keep the group dependency but make it more group friendly.

This.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

So instead of enjoying a great game because of it's content, graphics, style, etc you'll be at the mercy of the community (which tend to suck).

Over the past 7 years there are only two games I played that took up an substantial amount of time and both unfortunately have great graphics, content, style, etc and the thing that brought it down was the people I played with. One of them was FFXI ... and honestly It wasn't nearly as bad as my other game, but still a thorn in my side now and again. For the most part I avoided the bad people. Or even better I ridiculed and mocked the people I didn't like ... if you can believe poor little innocent me could do something like that O:-) ... (seriously there is no angel emote ... mmorpg.com ... you really do suck). I mean ... you play with the cards you are dealt and make the best of it. ... ... ... oh yeah that other game was called real life.

P.S. Does anyone else read the title of this thread and automatically get ACDC's Let there be Rock in their head? Or do i need to play less Rock Band?

My problem with FFXI was the mandatory grouping, but damn if it wasn't one of the best games I ever played. The combat stuck true to FF's menu-based formula, and in my opinion it worked, but seeing how the traditional series has shifted with it's combat; I expect a nuance to be in there that I like. As for how this one treats grouping, I can only hope that soloing is not as fruitless as it was in XI, by all means grouping should be more *fluid*, but in the last incarnation it was practically impossible to take on a like target for 50xp and keep going with any kind of useful speed.

Now for what I think everyone is misconstruing about the term "community based" as some link to "mandatory grouping" again, which I think the devs stated they are trying to keep from doing this time, take a look at the site for the game and you'll see something called Guildleves; they are collectible cards (in a sense) that contain a quest goal, and they can be used as you earn them to create your own quest content as a guild. In essence, guilds will be able to figure out thier own quest content, regardless of group size, and hand them out to members. Player-made content in a sense, and that is what they mean by "community based"... that, and maybe some craft stuff and trade/AH market stuff - FF was really community-driven in the last one.

I'm interested in going back to SWG to see how they did their similar "chronicles" quest-making.

Originally posted by LotosSlayer

Originally posted by Sixpax

I don't think people are necessarily against grouping, they are just against all the logistical problems of grouping.  Waiting long periods for an invite, long travel times, not playing one of the ideal classes, not being able to switch to another class while LFP, no content to keep you occupied while you wait, not being able to leave a group when you want/need to, etc.  Those are the problems that need to be addressed, and the answer isn't making it more "solo friendly".  FFXI was group-dependent, but it wasn't group-friendly.  For FFXIV, they need to keep the group dependency but make it more group friendly.

 

This.

basicly nailed it, they are learning from what things the people didnt like and fixing it.

as for adding solo content...its perfectly fine as long as its more of a "i only have like 20 mins today so il do a quick quest" or a "I'm LFP and bored so il knock out a quest while i wait" and not a primary or more efficent way of leveling.

Originally posted by zanfire

as for adding solo content...its perfectly fine as long as its more of a "i only have like 20 mins today so il do a quick quest" or a "I'm LFP and bored so il knock out a quest while i wait" and not a primary or more efficent way of leveling.

A lot of that sitting waiting for a group could have been resolved (and mostly HAS been resolved). WIth the level sync, it was blown out of the water. I hardly ever waited for a group after that. If they let us LFP on multiple jobs at once (hard to code without taring apart the entire game atm), then I would NEVER have been looking for a group for more than 2 minutes.

FFXIV should require grouping on par with FFXI - if you take away that you destroy the game. You take away the problems players had with finding a group, not the necessity for grouping itself. Every memory I have in FFXI is a memory of a specific group. Wheather it was the time I was in an all-taru group that turned into my all-taru linkshell I loved. Or the first time my Taru Paladin got over 15k xp/hr with the 3 monks, bard, and red mage.

Grouping is the right way to go. Solo content should be there, and it should be fairly strong. But it should be only used while waiting for a group.

Originally posted by GTwander

My problem with FFXI was the mandatory grouping, but damn if it wasn't one of the best games I ever played. The combat stuck true to FF's menu-based formula, and in my opinion it worked, but seeing how the traditional series has shifted with it's combat; I expect a nuance to be in there that I like. As for how this one treats grouping, I can only hope that soloing is not as fruitless as it was in XI, by all means grouping should be more *fluid*, but in the last incarnation it was practically impossible to take on a like target for 50xp and keep going with any kind of useful speed.

Now for what I think everyone is misconstruing about the term "community based" as some link to "mandatory grouping" again, which I think the devs stated they are trying to keep from doing this time, take a look at the site for the game and you'll see something called Guildleves; they are collectible cards (in a sense) that contain a quest goal, and they can be used as you earn them to create your own quest content as a guild. In essence, guilds will be able to figure out thier own quest content, regardless of group size, and hand them out to members. Player-made content in a sense, and that is what they mean by "community based"... that, and maybe some craft stuff and trade/AH market stuff - FF was really community-driven in the last one.

I'm interested in going back to SWG to see how they did their similar "chronicles" quest-making.

You must have quit a long time ago. They fixed solo, a lot. Anybody can now easily solo 4k xp/hr, which was the normal acceptable pickup group xp/hr.

Community based means a lot of things. From being almost forced into groups, linkshells, alliances, etc. To the fact that every item you find can be used in some sort of crafting. To the way the AH, Item Drop, Mobs, Leveling, Crafting, and world systems all center around the player.

FFXI has a true player-based econemy. You hardly sell anything to NPCs, and almost everything you pick up goes on the AH and is quickly bought by somebody. The money goes player to player, not player to NPC then NPC to player. That's a dumb way to do it. The more games I play, the more I realize how well designed FFXI was.