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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Forum » General Discussion » Subscription Based for real?

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578 posts found
  Kayo83

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/13
Posts: 148

7/26/13 7:44:05 AM#481
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/26/13 8:57:58 AM#482
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Hyanmen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4969

7/26/13 9:21:56 AM#483
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Fusion

FFXI is still going strong with a sub after a decade... why shouldn't FFXIV go sub route?

Because Western MMO players despise proper dev support on their MMO.

FFXI had awful support. I think the devs for that game secretly hated the players. 

I agree that the design philosophy was not exactly player-friendly (however the game itself was like that), but FFXI has had sizeable updates and content additions from the very beginning, simultaneously on all platforms and regions.  This is what I meant.

Denying this would be denying the reality.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

7/26/13 10:45:53 AM#484
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/26/13 11:19:52 AM#485
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that too. I remember when Wrath 1st launched. I had a hybrid dual mace Deathknight and was placing #2 in Naxx every time.(@#&$# Beast Mastery Hunters and their dam Devilsaurs!)  Blizz didn't like Hybrid builds so that got nerffed and I was forced to pick a build they wanted anyway. Yeah, there is another reason the talent system doesn't work. Oh I was so pissed. That was my 1st hiatus from WoW. LOL.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

7/26/13 1:47:22 PM#486
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Why are you acting like the same exact thing doesnt happen in FFXI or FFXIV? People will find the class combination that does X job the most efficiently and everyone will follow suit with that class combination. Sooo, not sure where you get off saying the talent system is faulty yet FFXI-XIV are immune.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/26/13 2:25:26 PM#487
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Why are you acting like the same exact thing doesnt happen in FFXI or FFXIV? People will find the class combination that does X job the most efficiently and everyone will follow suit with that class combination. Sooo, not sure where you get off saying the talent system is faulty yet FFXI-XIV are immune.

I never implied that it won't happen. I am only pointing out the flaws in the talent tree system and why it's not really needed.

I mean, I get it. I loved the idea of the talent system to be able to pick and chose what abilities are important and what aren't One of the whole reasons I tried Rift was that I thought a company had finally figured it out after years of WoW's spec imbalance. But no. They didn't. No one has. And that is the reality. It's fun to play with specs, but in the end, anyone who wants to compete will use a pre made one that's been handed down.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Koroshiya

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/18/05
Posts: 222

Live with love, and love will find you.

7/26/13 3:45:52 PM#488
Originally posted by ProfRed

Do people not see what the F2P model has done to this genre?  It has let 100's of sub par clones emerge and turn this genre into an app store like joke.

When do companies go F2P?  When their game is dying because it is not good enough for a sub to boost pop numbers, and exploit it's true fans.  Or when a sub par clone with 0 originality needs to compete with games way above it's pay grade.  

The F2P model is a joke.  These games are watered down clones or are specifically designed models to milk an addiction.

F2P costs more than any SUB MMO ever did.  Sheep like gamers are border line sinking this genre.  

you have no clue what the hell you are even talking about.  Its hilarious.

Bad MMO clones were coming LONG BEFORE the F2P push.

“The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness” – Bob Marley

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

7/26/13 3:58:14 PM#489
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by TaoMcDohl

SWTOR's end game was one of the major factors in its plummet.  You play through this amazing story, then suddenly you reach the end and the magical story / character growth ends and you're left with a gear grind.

I really think we should squash this myth that SW:TOR had a good leveling game or amazing story. SW:TOR had a terrible leveling game that was vastly inferior to Vanilla WoW, and the story was OK at best. I didn't quit on SW:TOR because of the endgame, I've never seen it. I quit on SW:TOR because it had horribly designed claustrophobic zones, copy-pasted WoW talent system, poor-looking artstyle/graphics that also put pressure on the PC, limited leveling paths, highly linear questing system, and a bunch of mechanics that broke grouping.

SW:TOR was a bad game from beginning to end, there was absolutely nothing good about it, and that includes the story. It doesn't matter what endgame it had because it was never worth playing in any capacity. This was NOT true for Vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW had a solid, long leveling game that you could thoroughly enjoy.

Wha? Inferior leveling to WoW is debatable. Yeah the world story was ok  and class stories were hit or miss (mostly miss) but at least it had a very well presented story to it. Who cares about the talent system? It worked didnt it? Or are you one of those "its bad cause WoW did it" types? Hell I wish FFXIV had the versatility and customization of a talent system, yet all we get is the ability to borrow a few abilities from other classes. Yeah, the engine sucked, the designers they licensed it from even admitted it was incomplete (and they warned them about it too), but I think the art-style was fine and looked way better than WoW ever did with its oversized textures. Oh, and if you think the zones in TOR were claustrophobic youre barking up the wrong game. Not that I agree with you on the claustrophobic thing but honestly, the zones in FFXIV are smaller and at least with TOR you didnt stare at a loading screen for every section of the map. I could get from the spaceport to the Sith temple without a single load screen.

TOR failed simply because of its horrible end game and its almost nonexistent content updates which made the whole situation even worse. Its leveling system however may not have been perfect but its among the best out there.

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Why are you acting like the same exact thing doesnt happen in FFXI or FFXIV? People will find the class combination that does X job the most efficiently and everyone will follow suit with that class combination. Sooo, not sure where you get off saying the talent system is faulty yet FFXI-XIV are immune.

Here is the thing. FF14 has enough ways to make your char unique. Why add a talent tree that has not proven to do anything to make your char unique in any way? All we get is cookie cutters builds. Maybe FF14 class/job system will prove to be the same. We wont know till its been run through the works. So we have a maybe FF14 system will give us the unique builds we are looking for and from past experiences we know talent trees wont. So it makes sense to go the option the davs have picked. Who knows maybe they will add something that adds more depth later but the class/job system is going to keep you busy long past getting level 50. 

  Kayo45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 294

7/26/13 4:17:03 PM#490
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Why are you acting like the same exact thing doesnt happen in FFXI or FFXIV? People will find the class combination that does X job the most efficiently and everyone will follow suit with that class combination. Sooo, not sure where you get off saying the talent system is faulty yet FFXI-XIV are immune.

I never implied that it won't happen. I am only pointing out the flaws in the talent tree system and why it's not really needed.

I mean, I get it. I loved the idea of the talent system to be able to pick and chose what abilities are important and what aren't One of the whole reasons I tried Rift was that I thought a company had finally figured it out after years of WoW's spec imbalance. But no. They didn't. No one has. And that is the reality. It's fun to play with specs, but in the end, anyone who wants to compete will use a pre made one that's been handed down.

I dont know where youre all getting this "they" from but many people like to customize their game despite that min/max stuff.  None but the very top 2% of hardcore day 1 raiders even cared if you had the absolute max anyway. I myself never bothered to even look up these specs and my DPS was never noticeably awful, nor was I ever ridiculed for it. Obviously, you have to play smart and not spread your talents thin but as long as you focus on your role the difference between that an max was insignificant. Also, as Sephiroso said, it happens in all MMOs regardless. Not having it because itll result in the same side effect doesnt really make much sense IMO.

Regardless, in the case of WoW you could at least pick 1 out of 3 different talents to focus on even if there was a max configuration for each tree.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/26/13 7:00:04 PM#491
Originally posted by Kayo45
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Talent systems are broken mechanics that never worked in the way they were intended. They are supposed to give you options and versatility to create a customized play style. It never happens. Rift came up with the best talent system in the genre. It doesn't work for them either. All you end up with is someone figuring out the best way to perform a function and everyone else follows that build. Thus the term "cookie cutter" talent systems are just a waste of code. In a WoW system, what they did to streamline it sucks. I'd prefer the system, but that system was nothing more than an illusion anyway. With FF14 is a multi-class system, there is no need for sub specs within a class so really, you aren't missing anything. All they did was remove the steps you take to hit the FF14 forums and look at the build someone else posted on the sticky guide at the top of the forum page and cut n paste what someone else already did. Square just did that for you.

This is 100% right and it also causes a balance mess as most time someone finds a unique way to use the talents that rocks, the nerf bat is swung because now the class does not fit in the box the devs wanted in the first place. Then everyone goes back to the 2-4 builds everyone uses. Its rather bland system.

Why are you acting like the same exact thing doesnt happen in FFXI or FFXIV? People will find the class combination that does X job the most efficiently and everyone will follow suit with that class combination. Sooo, not sure where you get off saying the talent system is faulty yet FFXI-XIV are immune.

I never implied that it won't happen. I am only pointing out the flaws in the talent tree system and why it's not really needed.

I mean, I get it. I loved the idea of the talent system to be able to pick and chose what abilities are important and what aren't One of the whole reasons I tried Rift was that I thought a company had finally figured it out after years of WoW's spec imbalance. But no. They didn't. No one has. And that is the reality. It's fun to play with specs, but in the end, anyone who wants to compete will use a pre made one that's been handed down.

I dont know where youre all getting this "they" from but many people like to customize their game despite that min/max stuff.  None but the very top 2% of hardcore day 1 raiders even cared if you had the absolute max anyway. I myself never bothered to even look up these specs and my DPS was never noticeably awful, nor was I ever ridiculed for it. Obviously, you have to play smart and not spread your talents thin but as long as you focus on your role the difference between that an max was insignificant. Also, as Sephiroso said, it happens in all MMOs regardless. Not having it because itll result in the same side effect doesnt really make much sense IMO.

Regardless, in the case of WoW you could at least pick 1 out of 3 different talents to focus on even if there was a max configuration for each tree.

As long as you are working in a primarily solo setting, this is fine. But the second you go into a group setting with some custom spec, now you are hurting the group. It doesn't matter that they didn't ridicule you. If you go into the group doing 85% of your own personal max DPS, then that's 15% of YOUR dps the rest of the group has to either make up for or be slowed down by that loss. Regardless of what you think, if you aren't min maxed as you say (This was my whole point to begin with. Someone else already figured out that min/max and you need to use it or you aren't min/maxed) Then you are forcing others to carry you. Or at least the difference in the loss of your performance.

It is for this reason (That I have just stated above) that I say this talent system is a broken mechanic.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Shoko_Lied

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2110

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

7/26/13 8:13:19 PM#492
I'm glad. I tend to make poor decisions with freemiums that end up costing me a lot more than I'd reasonably like to spend.
  Kayo45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 294

7/26/13 9:18:19 PM#493
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

As long as you are working in a primarily solo setting, this is fine. But the second you go into a group setting with some custom spec, now you are hurting the group. It doesn't matter that they didn't ridicule you. If you go into the group doing 85% of your own personal max DPS, then that's 15% of YOUR dps the rest of the group has to either make up for or be slowed down by that loss. Regardless of what you think, if you aren't min maxed as you say (This was my whole point to begin with. Someone else already figured out that min/max and you need to use it or you aren't min/maxed) Then you are forcing others to carry you. Or at least the difference in the loss of your performance.

It is for this reason (That I have just stated above) that I say this talent system is a broken mechanic.

How did you go from me saying the difference in damage is negligible (as in still doing enough) to gimping the entire group? There will always be players with a wide variety of damage in every raid, just because youre not at max doesnt mean your not doing your part. So long as youre well within the approximate range of the group youre not being carried. Not one guild or group ive been in has ever cared that my talents didnt exactly match the mathematical best one. Only the "2nd job, hardcore guilds" are really the only ones that would possibly care. Most guilds will at most only care that your DPS is approximate with the others.

Oh and you skipped the entire part where this "broken mechanic" shows up in every single MMO with any kind of customization that effects combat. Id bet real cash that there will be a best stat allocation, best equipped cross-class abilities, and even a step by step guide on what order to use those abilities the day after parsers are released (if they havent been already).

Regardless its pointless, its not going to happen any time soon and the current customization is good enough. Its not like its a big and amazing feature I couldnt play without nor was it even the point of my original post.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/26/13 9:35:08 PM#494
Originally posted by Kayo45
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

As long as you are working in a primarily solo setting, this is fine. But the second you go into a group setting with some custom spec, now you are hurting the group. It doesn't matter that they didn't ridicule you. If you go into the group doing 85% of your own personal max DPS, then that's 15% of YOUR dps the rest of the group has to either make up for or be slowed down by that loss. Regardless of what you think, if you aren't min maxed as you say (This was my whole point to begin with. Someone else already figured out that min/max and you need to use it or you aren't min/maxed) Then you are forcing others to carry you. Or at least the difference in the loss of your performance.

It is for this reason (That I have just stated above) that I say this talent system is a broken mechanic.

How did you go from me saying the difference in damage is negligible (as in still doing enough) to gimping the entire group? There will always be players with a wide variety of damage in every raid, just because youre not at max doesnt mean your not doing your part. So long as youre well within the approximate range of the group youre not being carried. Not one guild or group ive been in has ever cared that my talents didnt exactly match the mathematical best one. Only the "2nd job, hardcore guilds" are really the only ones that would possibly care. Most guilds will at most only care that your DPS is approximate with the others.

Oh and you skipped the entire part where this "broken mechanic" shows up in every single MMO with any kind of customization that effects combat. Id bet real cash that there will be a best stat allocation, best equipped cross-class abilities, and even a step by step guide on what order to use those abilities the day after parsers are released (if they havent been already).

Regardless its pointless, its not going to happen any time soon and the current customization is good enough. Its not like its a big and amazing feature I couldnt play without nor was it even the point of my original post.

Look, I am sorry you don't understand what I said, This isn't the thread for this. So it's my final post on the broken tree mechanic. But there is a reason WoW had gutted the talents in Cata and all but removed them in MoP.  As far as the pulling your own weight argument, that's not new either. It's been around for years, I didn't start it and it's a widely accepted concept. Most players in games that still use talent trees will expect you to use the established Spec. (They aren't wrong, which is why it's broken)

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Kirzan

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/05
Posts: 39

Currently Excited For:

- ARR
- Wildstar

7/28/13 11:25:59 PM#495
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Fusion

FFXI is still going strong with a sub after a decade... why shouldn't FFXIV go sub route?

Because Western MMO players despise proper dev support on their MMO.

+1

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/28/13 11:29:16 PM#496
Originally posted by Shatter30
This game will fail as a sub MMO.  If TOR couldn't survive as one as large of an IP as it is, why would this do any better when its essentially a WOW clone done worse. 

 

Um sorry to say, but swtor was a terrible game, maybe it was refreshing to those that had only played wow before, but it was indeed a bad mmo on rails game, and i love star wars, sheeshe,.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Moirae

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2577

7/29/13 6:23:55 AM#497
Originally posted by killahh
Originally posted by Shatter30
This game will fail as a sub MMO.  If TOR couldn't survive as one as large of an IP as it is, why would this do any better when its essentially a WOW clone done worse. 

 

Um sorry to say, but swtor was a terrible game, maybe it was refreshing to those that had only played wow before, but it was indeed a bad mmo on rails game, and i love star wars, sheeshe,.

lol. SWTOR is no worse than most of the other games out there atm. And it also has moral choices, class companions, and choices that matter to your character. Plus its star wars. Stop trying to make it seem like its the worst game out there at the moment, it isn't. 

  NetSage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1010

7/29/13 6:34:39 AM#498
To bad those features mentioned only make it a better single player game instead of a greater mmo.
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4628

7/29/13 8:01:59 AM#499
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by killahh
Originally posted by Shatter30
This game will fail as a sub MMO.  If TOR couldn't survive as one as large of an IP as it is, why would this do any better when its essentially a WOW clone done worse. 

 

Um sorry to say, but swtor was a terrible game, maybe it was refreshing to those that had only played wow before, but it was indeed a bad mmo on rails game, and i love star wars, sheeshe,.

lol. SWTOR is no worse than most of the other games out there atm. And it also has moral choices, class companions, and choices that matter to your character. Plus its star wars. Stop trying to make it seem like its the worst game out there at the moment, it isn't. 

Moral Choices? What does that have to do with an MMOROG? Your moral standing has nothing to do with interacting with other players. Nothing!

Class Companions? They should be other players.

Choices that matter to my character? The only choices that matter to my character should not be limited to how NPCs respond to me. If these "choices" have no bearing when interacting with other players, they are the wrong focus.

So, it's good just because it's Star Wars?  Problem with SWTOR is that it's not really Star Wars. It only looks like it on the surface. But they really did bastardize this IP. Jedi getting power from armor huh? Yeah OK. Oh and soooooooo many more break-aways from what Star Wars was. Smuggler vs. Sith in PVP huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CdicAx1P14

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

7/29/13 9:28:39 AM#500
I will sub this game for now. I will be back in 3-6 months to this thread to say if I think its still worth a sub =-) Only 2 words need SE need worry about "end game" How much and quality will be what I am looking for =-) Will be a fun ride to find out.
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